Bloodline

[Mourn]

Originally posted by kgauck
Blood powers amount to feats. Access to blood powers is limited by
bloodline derivation. The quantity and quality of blood powers is limited
by blood strength. So, let`s say we just wrote all the blood powers us as
feats [General] so fighters don`t have any advantages. You`d need to meet
the prerequisites to take the feat, like having an appropraite bloodline
derivation.

This is pretty easily handled. I'll lay out a couple examples from what I've been thinking about. There is one thing about the Force skills and feats from Star Wars however... they require vitality points to use, which translates into hit points in the D&D d20 system. I have no problem with scions having to "spend" hit points in order to use some of their more potent powers, but I figure some of the others will.

I am tapping WoT and a couple of other sources for ideas here, so bear with me... For prerequisites for the feats, I made the bloodline strength categories into the following scores: minor (11+), major (15+), great (19+), and not really worrying about the higher ones.

Example feats

Some of these feats are abilities that have minor, major and great powers. Some of these have the same effect, merely increasing in power as they go. To simulate that increase, I merged the three levels of power into a single feat, but based the increase on your Bloodline score... thus a high Bloodline character gets more out of these feats because of his higher blood. Others didn't have higher powers, and thus do not scale as the others do.

Higher level effects that have a different function than the lower ones are done either as skills with varied effects, or feats with additional prerequisites.

Divine Bloodline [General]
You are the scion of an ancient and divine bloodline.
Benefit: Select a bloodline derivation and generate a Blood score using the method you used to generate your other ability scores. You may learn Bloodline-based skills for that derivation as class skills.
Special: This feat may only be taken at 1st level.

Blood History [Bloodline]
The blood of your forebears runs strongly in your veins, occasionally granting you the insight and wisdom of countless generations.
Prerequisite: Divine Bloodline (Brenna, Masela, or Vorynn), Bloodline 11+.
Benefit: As described in the BRCS d20 Playtest Document (pg 42-43).

Damage Reduction [Bloodline]
Your blood grants you resistance to physical blows.
Prerequisite: Divine Bloodline (Azrai, Brenna, Masela), Bloodline 15+.
Benefit: You gain damage reduction equal to your Bloodline modifier/bloodsilver. Thus, a scion with a score of 18 would have DR 4/bloodsilver.

-OR-

Damage Reduction [Bloodline]
Your blood grants you resistance to physical blows.
Prerequisite: Divine Bloodline (Azrai, Brenna, Masela), Bloodline 15+.
Benefit: You gain damage reduction 1/bloodsilver.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, your damage reduction increases by 1.

Divine Resistance [Bloodline]
Your blood grants you special resistances.
Prerequisite: Divine Bloodline (any), Bloodline 11+.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against particular effects, depending on your bloodline derivation.
Anduiras: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities from the Enchantment school.
Azrai: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilitiesfrom the Necromancy school. You also gain a +4 bonus to saving throws to overcome negative levels.
Basaia: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities with the fire descriptor or that deal fire damage.
Brenna: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities that cause the following conditions: checked, entangled, grappled, held, helpless, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned.
Masela: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against water-based effects. You also gain a +4 bonus to the Constitution check to avoid drowning.
Reynir: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities with the cold description or the deal cold damage. You also gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against the effects of heat dangers, cold dangers, and starvation and thirst dangers.
Vorynn: You gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities from the Evocation school.

Spell Resistance [Bloodline]
Your blood grants you resistance to spells and spell-like abilities.
Prerequisite: Divine Bloodline (Anduiras, Azrai, Reynir, Vorynn), Bloodline 19+.
Benefit: You gain spell resistance equal to 10 + your Bloodline modifier.

Example skills
All Bloodline skills are trained only.

Enhance Ability [Bld]
Anduiras, Azrai, Basaia, Brenna, Reynir, and Vorynn only.
You can call on your blood to enhance certain characteristics for a short period of time.
Check: An Enhance Ability check requires a standard action and adds a sacred (or profane for Azrai) bonus to one ability score for 10 rounds (1 minute). The result of the skill check indicates the bonus.

Result ---------- Bonus
15-19 ------------- +2
20-24 ------------- +4
25-29 ------------- +6
30+ --------------- +8

Special: You can only use Enhance Ability with certain ability scores associated with your bloodline derivation. Scions of Anduiras can enhance Strength and Charisma. Scions of Azrai can enhance Intelligence and Charisma. Scions of Basaia can enhance Intelligence. Scions of Brenna can enhance Dexterity. Scions of Reynir can enhance Constitution. Scions of Vorynn can enhance Wisdom.
HP Loss: 2.

Fear [Bld]
Corrupted; Azrai only.
Check: A Fear check provides a profane penalty to a target's skill checks and attack rolls. The penalty lasts for 10 rounds. The result of the Fear check indicates the target's penalty.

Result ----------- Penalty
10-14 -------------- -2
15-19 -------------- -4
20-24 -------------- -6
25-29 -------------- -8
30+ ---------------- -10

Using this skill is a standard action. You receive a Corruption point for using this skill.
HP Loss: 2.

Example tainting

As talked about, the Dark Side point system works pretty well with this idea. Every vile and despicable act will earn you a Corruption point. Whenever you use certain Bloodline feats and skills, which will be noted in each feat or skill description, you gain a Corruption point. These gains stack, as well. So, if you use a Corrupted bloodline ability to perform a vile and evil act, you will gain two points instead of just one.
When your Corruption score equals one-half your Bloodline score, you run the risk of being corrupted. You also begin to taste the seductive power that Corruption offers. You gain a +2 profane bonus on any Bloodline-based skill checks made with Corrupted skills, but suffers a -2 penalty on other Bloodline-based skill checks.
Thereafter, each time you gain a Corruption point, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the number of Corruptions points possessed). If you fail, or when the number of Corruption points equals or exceeds your Bloodline score, you are fully tainted. You automatically switch your bloodline derivation to Azrai, losing all Bloodline feats and skills that you do not meet the prerequisites for. After the change of derivation, you may purchase new Bloodline feats and skills (total up the number of feats and skill points lost, and then apply these towards new feats and skills of Azrai's bloodline), but only after attaining a level.

I have some more ideas, thoughts of how to implement prestige classes, templates and such into this system as well... after all, why wouldn't some scions devote themselves to the study of the nature of their blood? And if the HP loss system is used, this could explain the additional hit points that scions receive, which would translate into a d12 HD for any scion-based classes... Also, some of the abilities (such as shadow form) could temporarily apply the effects of a template to you. Shadow form could apply the Shadow Creature template from Manual of the Planes, or even the Umbral Creature template in Savage Species.

That's all I have for now...

[Edit: A couple of afterthoughts. I might consider giving the Divine Bloodline feat the additional benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Charisma-based checks against commoners. This is to show the stronger force of personality that a divine bloodline gives you. Another thought I had with this system would be the inclusion of a scion class, closely tied with these feats and skills. The class would grant certain abilities to assist in leadership, as well as bonus feats for the different derivations (including all the Bloodline feats), as well as others. For example, Alertness is a normal feat, not a Bloodline feat, but scions of Azrai gain Alertness as a blood ability. With the scion class, scions of Azrai could gain Alertness on their list of bonus feats, showing that they can gain it as a bonus even though its not actually a supernatural blood power.]

[irdeggman]

One problem with the feat based proposal is the group that wants to determine blood abilities randomly, which is why the variant was included in the proposed version. While I don't believe this is the majority of the those playing, I do believe that a sufficient number have expressed the desire for the randomness to justify a variant system to accomodate it.

[ConjurerDragon]

Mourn wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1429
>
> Mourn wrote:
> [quote]Originally posted by kgauck
>...
>This is pretty easily handled. I`ll lay out a couple examples from what I`ve been thinking about. There is one thing about the Force skills and feats from Star Wars however... they require vitality points to use, which translates into hit points in the D&D d20 system. I have no problem with scions having to "spend" hit points in order to use some of their more potent powers, but I figure some of the others will.
>
I would not. Quite the opposite is true, e.g. I loved the prestige class
of "Blood Magus" from Tome&Blood, who is able to substitute a number of
Hit Points for a component for his spell, like Component Cost 1-50
Damage dealt 5 hp, more for more expensive components. And in my opinion
quite approbiate for wizards on cerilia who can are true spellcasters,
only due to their blood - and it limits bookkeeping on components ;-)

>I am tapping WoT and a couple of other sources for ideas here, so bear with me... For prerequisites for the feats, I made the bloodline strength categories into the following scores: minor (11+), major (15+), great (19+), and not really worrying about the higher ones.
>
>Example feats
>...
>Divine Bloodline [General]
>You are the scion of an ancient and divine bloodline.
>Benefit: Select a bloodline derivation and generate a Blood score using the method you used to generate your other ability scores. You may learn Bloodline-based skills for that derivation as class skills.
>Special: This feat may only be taken at 1st level.
>
What happens when you gain a bloodline by investiture or by bloodtheft,
when you already have some levels in a class?

>Special: You can only use Enhance Ability with certain ability scores associated with your bloodline derivation. Scions of Anduiras can enhance Strength and Charisma. Scions of Azrai can enhance Intelligence and Charisma. Scions of Basaia can enhance Intelligence. Scions of Brenna can enhance Dexterity. Scions of Reynir can enhance Constitution. Scions of Vorynn can enhance Wisdom.
>HP Loss: 2.
>
Certainly temporary loss, not permanent?
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

daniel mcsorley wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
>>I could be completely obtuse and suggest that bloodlines and bloodabilities
>>be handled in much the same way that Star Wars handles the Force. It
>>certainly has the virtue of being d20.
>>
>Never played it, how do they do it? From your tone I imagine it`s a
>complete tack-on like bloodlines were in 2e, with none of this nonsense
>about balance :)
>
To mention the nonsense about balance:

The most problems come from the try to balance the different
bloodstrenghts even with nonblooded characters.

In 3E draft blooded scions are penalized in XP by gaining an ECL or
more - in 2E it was the opposite, non-blooded characters got a bonus of
10% XP.

In 3E the penalty raises with the bloodline strength, 2E did not care
how strong your bloodline was.

So while the 10% XP bonus for non-blooded characters was nice, it did
not even try to balance every character against every other. And when
the 10% bonus would have been balanced for a non-blooded vs. a minor
scion it would have been unbalancing for a non-blooded vs. a great scion
- but 2E did not care.

In my opinion Birthright is a game of kings not peasants.

To penalize Kings so that the peasants can compete is bringing balance
where none is needed or even wanted to preserve the feeling of being a
ruler by divine right and with the approbiate blood ability nearly a
second Herakles, Achilles or other demi-god.
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Green Knight]

> To mention the nonsense about balance:
>
> The most problems come from the try to balance the different
> bloodstrenghts even with nonblooded characters.
>
> In 3E draft blooded scions are penalized in XP by gaining an ECL or
> more - in 2E it was the opposite, non-blooded characters got a bonus of
> 10% XP.
>
> In 3E the penalty raises with the bloodline strength, 2E did not care
> how strong your bloodline was.
>
> So while the 10% XP bonus for non-blooded characters was nice, it did
> not even try to balance every character against every other. And when
> the 10% bonus would have been balanced for a non-blooded vs. a minor
> scion it would have been unbalancing for a non-blooded vs. a great scion
> - but 2E did not care.
>
> In my opinion Birthright is a game of kings not peasants.
>
> To penalize Kings so that the peasants can compete is bringing balance
> where none is needed or even wanted to preserve the feeling of being a
> ruler by divine right and with the approbiate blood ability nearly a
> second Herakles, Achilles or other demi-god.
> bye
> Michael Romes
>
>
And giving a regent character a few more effective levels is out of the question?

If you want regents that are more powerful than a Commoner 1, then let them start out with more levels, including a ECL shifting thingy from a bloodline :-)

Cheers
Bjørn

-------------------------------------------------
WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no
-------------------------------------------------

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[geeman]

At 02:23 PM 3/14/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:

>To penalize Kings so that the peasants can compete is bringing balance
>where none is needed or even wanted to preserve the feeling of being a
>ruler by divine right and with the approbiate blood ability nearly a
>second Herakles, Achilles or other demi-god.

I don`t think balancing kings against peasants is really go the goal; it`s
balancing ruler PCs against commoner PCs of "equal level" which includes
such things as templates and any other ECL modifiers. Note that using any
of the systems presented for 3e conversion that`s still not "balanced"
really in the way I think you`re suggesting. That is, that every character
is equal to all the others. What most people seem to mean when they use
the word "balance" is that things like class features and template
modifiers are quantified into a system that the DM can use to rate the
relative power of those characters. You could still have characters with
very different character levels running around who are, therefore, not
balanced against each other. system that attempts to reach some sort of
"balance" would allow a DM to say "create characters of power X" to players
and they could create PCs of any permutation, none of which were
particularly more powerful than any other. That`s an ideal, of course, but
there`s no harm in shooting for it.

Gary

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
I would not. Quite the opposite is true, e.g. I loved the prestige class
of "Blood Magus" from Tome&Blood, who is able to substitute a number of
Hit Points for a component for his spell, like Component Cost 1-50
Damage dealt 5 hp, more for more expensive components. And in my opinion
quite approbiate for wizards on cerilia who can are true spellcasters,
only due to their blood - and it limits bookkeeping on components ;-)

*gasp* We agree on something? Excellent. I like the idea of the scion using his abilities, but being weakened by it. After all, your blood can't do anything if you don't have the strength for it.

What happens when you gain a bloodline by investiture or by bloodtheft,
when you already have some levels in a class?

Didn't even think about it, yet. I wrote that at 2 in the morning, off the top of my head, with three different books spread over my desk.

Ritual of Investiture: The recipient of this rituals gains the Divine Bloodline feat with the same derivation as that of the ritual's caster. The ritual drains 1,600 XP from the recipient.
Bloodtheft: As Ritual of Investiture, but the recipient is in control of the ritual. The recipient must perform a coup de grace on a helpless scion. If the scion fails the Fortitude saving throw to survive, bloodtheft occurs. All scions within 10 feet per point of Bloodline the scion posssessed must make a Bloodline check (DC 25 - the victim's Bloodline modifier). Committing bloodtheft automatically earns you a Corruption point. Committing bloodtheft on a scion of Azrai earns you two Corruption points. This ritual also drains the 1,600 XP.

If the character would lose a level from the XP loss, the ritual fails automatically.

Certainly temporary loss, not permanent?

Temporary. I've even thought of making it subdual damage, so that a scion could rest for a few hours and regain his strength.

I've heard comments on individual points which show flaws, or areas that aren't explained well... anyone care to comment on the system as a whole? It seems that most people on this board will either agree or disagree, but not offer any kind of alternative or modification. Let's see some more rules and mechanics, people!

[Mourn]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
In 3E the penalty raises with the bloodline strength, 2E did not care
how strong your bloodline was.

Well, 2nd Edition didn't really care for balance... or consistency... or logic. "What do I roll? A d20? Allright, I got an 18. That good? Wait, am I rolling high or low? Is this considered a spell, or a death effect? It's a death spell? Wait... is it spell or death? It's treated as a wand? Damn, my save vs wands sucks."

So while the 10% XP bonus for non-blooded characters was nice, it did
not even try to balance every character against every other. And when
the 10% bonus would have been balanced for a non-blooded vs. a minor
scion it would have been unbalancing for a non-blooded vs. a great scion
- but 2E did not care.

That's because 2nd Edition wasn't a very good system. The 10% bonus didn't even balance between character classes, because of the different experience charts for each class. 3rd Edition is all about balance, in which a 5th-level fighter and a 5th-level cleric are on equal power levels. A 10th-level scion and a 10th-level commoner should be of the same power level, but the scion has things completely unavailable to the commoner. He has spent more time learning the powers of his heritage, reflected in his spent feats and skill points, while the commoner focused on more mundane skills.

In my opinion Birthright is a game of kings not peasants.

It is. However, players that want to play a scion should not just gain extra benefits, while players who do not want to be a scion gain nothing. As stated, scions are fairly rare, so most games should have a commoner or two in the mix, and they should be able to hold their own with the scions. They may not be able to heal themselves, or have damage reduction, but they have their own abilities.

To penalize Kings so that the peasants can compete is bringing balance
where none is needed or even wanted to preserve the feeling of being a
ruler by divine right and with the approbiate blood ability nearly a
second Herakles, Achilles or other demi-god.

Balance is needed. Without balance, the system falls apart when stress is applied. Look at 2nd Edition... the system was so unbalanced that most DMs were forced to create house rules in order for it to work.

And comparing these characters to Herakles is a bit ridiculous. According to Deities & Demigods, Hercules is Divine Rank 5, Barbarian 20/Fighter 20, and I think he'd mop the floor with ANY character in the BR setting, the Gorgon included.

Also, by pushing scions above their power level without any sort of balance leaves terrible holes in the Challenge Rating and XP system. So, if I'm a 6th-level scion of a major bloodline, according to the rules I'm an ECL of 8. So, if we square off against CR 8 creatures, I am fighting against my challenge rating. However, if we remove the balance imposed, because you don't think it's needed, things get bad. Then, I'm still considered an ECL of 6, though I am as strong as an 8th-level character, and creatures of CR 6 will not be that much of a problem. However, since I gain experience as a 6th-level character, I gain a lot more. So, I gain free special abilities *AND* extra experience by removing balance.

Sounds broken to me.

[Edit: By the way, when I say commoner, I don't mean a NPC commoner of the commoner class. I am referring to a PC character without a bloodline. The rules use scion, blooded character, commoner and unblooded character interchangeably, but I think a single, definitive term should be used for each.]

[AnakinMiller]

> It is. However, players that want to play a scion should not just gain
extra benefits, while players who do not want to be a scion gain nothing. As
stated, scions are fairly rare, so most games should have a commoner or two
in the mix, and they should be able to hold their own with the scions.

I disgree here, but that is simply my opinion. Birthright is the game of
Lords and Rulers not the rable. I understand that 3e is supposed to be all
balance happy, but damnit a 10th level scion should be more powerful than a
10th level peasant. If the odds where not stacked in favor of the scions
then why in hell do they rule by divine right? Kings are the leaders
because they are above the common man.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[AnakinMiller]

> It is. However, players that want to play a scion should not just gain
extra benefits, while players who do not want to be a scion gain nothing. As
stated, scions are fairly rare, so most games should have a commoner or two
in the mix, and they should be able to hold their own with the scions.

I disgree here, but that is simply my opinion. Birthright is the game of
Lords and Rulers not the rable. I understand that 3e is supposed to be all
balance happy, but damnit a 10th level scion should be more powerful than a
10th level peasant. If the odds where not stacked in favor of the scions
then why in hell do they rule by divine right? Kings are the leaders
because they are above the common man.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.