Secret temple within a temple

[Arjan]

I have been tossing with this idea for one of my players but i would like to have you opinions on this.

The PC (a low level priest of sera) want to establish a temple holding in the province of lemnjohen of the giantdowns.
He is secretly contacted by a group called "the white hand". What he doesnt know is that the group is in fact from the kriesha temples of the white witch, trying to infiltrate in the human provinces of the giantdowns.

The group gives the priest of sera all kinds of financial support to establish the temple, and sometimes ask a favor in return. The name of the temple is "Circle of the white coin".

Since kriesha's portfolio is also wealth,making money and trade, it seems to the pc that he has a temple of sera.

my question to you all, how would you handle such a situation? that the temple of sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without letting the PC know about it. how would you cover it up?

Arjan

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arjan" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 7:58 AM


> my question to you all, how would you handle such a situation?
> that the temple of sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without letting
> the PC know about it. how would you cover it up?

The PC only knows what you tell them. Choose your words carefully to convey
the sense that the temple is one of Sera without contradicting possible
later discovery of a temple to the Ice Lady. Suggest that any thing
questionable is a Rjurik thing, rather than a reason to reflect on the
Temple of the White Coin. For example, the druids are liable to dislike
both a temple of Kriesha and a temple of Sera. So, hostility among the
druids can just be couched in terms that suggest a disapproval of Sera.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[morgramen]

I've been toying with a similar idea for my campaign, but the trick I need to figure out is what to do with the RP & GB collections as regards the domain level of play.

If you have a "secret temple" within a temple, then how to subvert the RPs without letting the player regent know about it? I thought about allowing the "secret sect" free access to the "cover temples" bank account (as if it were their own), but that is only a temporary solution - a one time trick as it were. As soon as the "secret" temple used some of the RPs, then the player (operating the "visible" cover-temple) would realize that something is up when his bank account isn't what it should be.

The other option, would be for the secret sect to only use the temple for realm spell purposes, and to let the PC keep the income from the cover temple itself. THis would be ok in hte big picture, but doesn't seem to be the best solution for the subverting temple.

[Birthright-L]

I would have to add though that it would be EXTREMELY difficult for it to be
a temple to more than one deity. Simply put, the temples of the Ice Lady
can ONLY have female priestesses AND practice rather harsh doctrines that
don`t at all mesh with Sera. The players character would have to be an
IDIOT if he didn`t notice the odd rituals.

Tony


----Original Message Follows----
From: Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>


> my question to you all, how would you handle such a situation?
> that the temple of sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without letting
> the PC know about it. how would you cover it up?

The PC only knows what you tell them. Choose your words carefully to convey
the sense that the temple is one of Sera without contradicting possible
later discovery of a temple to the Ice Lady. Suggest that any thing
questionable is a Rjurik thing, rather than a reason to reflect on the
Temple of the White Coin. For example, the druids are liable to dislike
both a temple of Kriesha and a temple of Sera. So, hostility among the
druids can just be couched in terms that suggest a disapproval of Sera.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2003-03-11 at 00:58, Arjan wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1421

Arjan wrote:
I have been tossing with this idea for one of my players but i would like to have
you opinions on this.

The PC (a low level priest of sera) want to establish a temple holding in the
province of lemnjohen of the giantdowns.
He is secretly contacted by a group called "the white hand". What he doesnt know
is that the group is in fact from the kriesha temples of the white witch, trying to
infiltrate in the human provinces of the giantdowns.

The group gives the priest of sera all kinds of financial support to establish the
temple, and sometimes ask a favor in return. The name of the temple is "Circle of
the white coin".

Since kriesha`s portfolio is also wealth,making money and trade, it seems to the pc
that he has a temple of sera.

my question to you all, how would you handle such a situation? that the temple of
sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without letting the PC know about it. how would
you cover it up?

Arjan


In my opinion, if the temple is established by the PC for Sera - then it
is a temple to Sera. The fact that financial backing, and possibly
several of the temple personnel are supplied by the White Witch is
completely irrelevant. The infiltrators and the money does not change
the nature or alliance of the temple worshipers. However ...

From a strict wording point of view I don`t like the use of "secret" in
this context -- I think better meaning is conveyed by "hidden". The
White Witch (through her agents) may also, -- at the same time --
attempt to establish a hidden temple to Kriesha using the temple of Sera
as a cover.

The two temples form parts of two different domains and are administered
separately. The existence of a hidden/secret cult of Kriesha may be
reasonably deduced by the player/regent given that it is an active
temple. However that won`t let them know that the temple is right on top
of them (literally). Gb and RP are handled as normal for each temple.

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[morgramen]

The example I'm using for my campaign is the Temple of Elemental Evil. Consider, that the temple itself is dedicated to the elements, and so the worshipping flock adheres to the principles set down by the priests, believeing all the while that they are worshipping the spirit of air, fire, and otherwise.

However, underneath the robes, and behind closed curtains, the true nature of the elemental religion is in fact, dedicated to Iuz and Zuggtomy. It is these Gods who are in fact recieving the "Juice of Faith", and the elemental aspect is merely a cover to dupe the local peeons.

Is it not possible then, that the masses can be "fooled" into thinking that the local shrine is something other than what it really is? If it is, then is it not also possible that a highly secretive cult could derive "Faith Juice" by posing as priests of Sera and diverting some of the Juice to their own dark Gods without alerting the actual "True" priests of the otherwise, legitimate, temple?

Ergo, a "temple within a temple".

The "divine essence" that is created through worship is there (and this is really the definitive key I think), but does this "god stuff" shoot straight through the express checkout to the God itself, or instead, are the earthly priests (who are in charge of generating that "faith essence") get to manipulate it and direct it to the desired destination? If the earthly priests "create" the essence by preaching doctrine, then couldn't they effectively create "subversive doctrine" that reads like legalesse?

[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2003-03-11 at 09:17, morgramen wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1421

morgramen wrote:
The example I`m using for my campaign is the Temple of Elemental Evil.
Consider, that the temple itself is dedicated to the elements, and so the
worshipping flock adheres to the principles set down by the priests,
believeing all the while that they are worshipping the spirit of air,
fire, and otherwise.

However, underneath the robes, and behind closed curtains, the true nature
of the elemental religion is in fact, dedicated to Iuz and Zuggtomy. It is
these Gods who are in fact recieving the "Juice of Faith", and the elemental
aspect is merely a cover to dupe the local peeons.

Is it not possible then, that the masses can be "fooled" into thinking
that the local shrine is something other than what it really is? If it is,
then is it not also possible that a highly secretive cult could derive
"Faith Juice" by posing as priests of Sera and diverting some of the
Juice to their own dark Gods without alerting the actual "True" priests
of the otherwise, legitimate, temple?

It would be unlikely that you would be able to twist the worship of Sera
so as to reflect that of Kriesha. Assuming that it could be done
however, you would have a temple to Kriesha, run by priests of Kriesha
for the glory of ... etc (just with a name change). The truth is still
there. But why would a goddess condone such behavior ? I find it highly
unlikely that you could fool people this way in any case.


Ergo, a "temple within a temple".

The "divine essence" that is created through worship is there (and this
is really the definitive key I think), but does this "god stuff" shoot
straight through the express checkout to the God itself, or instead, are
the earthly priests (who are in charge of generating that "faith essence")
get to manipulate it and direct it to the desired destination? If the
earthly priests "create" the essence by preaching doctrine, then
couldn`t they effectively create "subversive doctrine" that reads like
legalesse?

But, the postulated position was that the players controlled a priest
regent. Here, no matter how you slice it - you can`t hide. No true
priest of Sera will be fooled, and even if you managed to get an
extremely gullible priest - you aren`t going to fool Sera. Sera`s
communication/communion with her priests may be through intermediaries
in most cases -- but how many spells do you see the priest getting
granted for example?

In such a case - you don`t have a temple within a temple. You have a
temple of Kriesha with a load of fresh paint over the sign "Kriesha`s
Temple", with a bad over-paint job saying "Temple of Sera" (probably
misspelled at that). There`s no two temples here.



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[ryancaveney]

Arjan wrote:

> the temple of sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without
> letting the PC know about it.

I think it is in principle possible to have a temple that claims to
worship one diety but actually worships another. In fact, I suspect
temples to Eloele (and individual priests of Eloele serving in temples to
other gods, pretending to be priests of that other god) do this all the
time -- the idea of stealing worship seems extremely appropriate to her.
However, the specifics of this situation (the priest himself does not know
what is going on) make arranging that much more difficult.

IMO, the specific ritual done can direct what Morg called "Faith Juice" to
any desired recipient; what use, if any, that recipient can make of the
energy is determined by their personal skills and power. For example, IMO
this is exactly how temple regents gain RP and cast realm spells. It
should be possible for someone with enough ranks in Knowledge(Religion) to
construct a ritual that actually sends the energy somewhere other than
where it looks to a casual observer like it should go, where "casual" is
defined by some sort of opposed test of Knowledge(Religion). I don`t
think this plan is defeated by the objections Peter Lubke notes, because
IMO communication with the gods is much less easy and detailed than he
seems to think. Especially if the temple is misdirected from the
beginning, I think the gods would have a tough time noticing (or at
least pinpointing) the problem.

According to my theory, no matter how much financial support is provided
by the Krieshans, if the PC conducts the standard Seran worship service
out of the standard Seran prayer book, the "Faith Juice" goes to Sera.
If, however, his backers were to provide a rewritten liturgy, and he used
those rituals to conduct services, then the energy would go wherever the
new ritual directed, such as to Kriesha. Whether the priest himself, or
any other visiting priest of Sera could tell the difference would be a
matter of Knowledge(Religion) as I said above -- although this does call
for a variety of circumstance bonuses, as I suspect (as Kenneth Gauck
suggests) the more conservative druids couldn`t be bothered to tell the
difference anyway. At this point I am tempted to argue for splitting the
Knowledge(Religion) skill into different ones for each god.

There could be other ways to steal the energy, but they are rather more
intrusive and require more effort to get right and keep hidden. They
would all have to involve some large-scale magical ritual/spell: a realm
spell should be able to do the trick, as might summoning some big shadow
world beastie to inhabit the temple and redirect the outgoing flow of
"Faith Juice" (doubtless for the price of keeping some fraction for its
own use). However, I think that for this sort of thing to work without
the help of the regent priest, it would probably also steal some of his
RP in the process, which he would almost surely notice.


Ryan Caveney

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by morgramen

The example I'm using for my campaign is the Temple of Elemental Evil.

You don't like your players, do you??? ;)

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Edwards" <anthony_c_edwards@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:06 PM


> I would have to add though that it would be EXTREMELY difficult
> for it to be a temple to more than one deity. Simply put, the temples
> of the Ice Lady can ONLY have female priestesses AND practice
> rather harsh doctrines that don`t at all mesh with Sera. The players
> character would have to be an IDIOT if he didn`t notice the odd rituals.

I would think that too if I supposed that a covert temple would use overt
rituals. You see, the DM wrote the list and told he wanted to have a covert
temple, so for purposes of argument its a given. I wrote my post to offer
an explaination of how it might happen, as a way of answering the question
that was asked. We have previously discussed how the TCV in Osoerde might
have infiltrated the temples of Cuiraecen, corrupting values of the knights
of the Stormlord. We have discussed the presence of Torias Griene (priest
of Eloéle) in the Northern Imperial Temple. Its reasonable to devise an
intrigue where priests of one temple infiltrate another. The DM who asked
the question offered a rational based in finance. Why nay say? Its more
constructive to figure out how it could happen within the setting, given
that someone is already going to run the senario.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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