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  1. #1
    Moo! Are you happy now? Arjan's Avatar
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    I have been tossing with this idea for one of my players but i would like to have you opinions on this.

    The PC (a low level priest of sera) want to establish a temple holding in the province of lemnjohen of the giantdowns.
    He is secretly contacted by a group called "the white hand". What he doesnt know is that the group is in fact from the kriesha temples of the white witch, trying to infiltrate in the human provinces of the giantdowns.

    The group gives the priest of sera all kinds of financial support to establish the temple, and sometimes ask a favor in return. The name of the temple is "Circle of the white coin".

    Since kriesha's portfolio is also wealth,making money and trade, it seems to the pc that he has a temple of sera.

    my question to you all, how would you handle such a situation? that the temple of sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without letting the PC know about it. how would you cover it up?

    Arjan
    Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.

  2. #2
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Arjan" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 7:58 AM


    > my question to you all, how would you handle such a situation?
    > that the temple of sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without letting
    > the PC know about it. how would you cover it up?

    The PC only knows what you tell them. Choose your words carefully to convey
    the sense that the temple is one of Sera without contradicting possible
    later discovery of a temple to the Ice Lady. Suggest that any thing
    questionable is a Rjurik thing, rather than a reason to reflect on the
    Temple of the White Coin. For example, the druids are liable to dislike
    both a temple of Kriesha and a temple of Sera. So, hostility among the
    druids can just be couched in terms that suggest a disapproval of Sera.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #3
    Special Guest (Donor) morgramen's Avatar
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    I've been toying with a similar idea for my campaign, but the trick I need to figure out is what to do with the RP & GB collections as regards the domain level of play.

    If you have a "secret temple" within a temple, then how to subvert the RPs without letting the player regent know about it? I thought about allowing the "secret sect" free access to the "cover temples" bank account (as if it were their own), but that is only a temporary solution - a one time trick as it were. As soon as the "secret" temple used some of the RPs, then the player (operating the "visible" cover-temple) would realize that something is up when his bank account isn't what it should be.

    The other option, would be for the secret sect to only use the temple for realm spell purposes, and to let the PC keep the income from the cover temple itself. THis would be ok in hte big picture, but doesn't seem to be the best solution for the subverting temple.
    &quot;You need people of intelligence on this mission... quest... thing.&quot;

  4. #4
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    I would have to add though that it would be EXTREMELY difficult for it to be
    a temple to more than one deity. Simply put, the temples of the Ice Lady
    can ONLY have female priestesses AND practice rather harsh doctrines that
    don`t at all mesh with Sera. The players character would have to be an
    IDIOT if he didn`t notice the odd rituals.

    Tony


    ----Original Message Follows----
    From: Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>


    > my question to you all, how would you handle such a situation?
    > that the temple of sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without letting
    > the PC know about it. how would you cover it up?

    The PC only knows what you tell them. Choose your words carefully to convey
    the sense that the temple is one of Sera without contradicting possible
    later discovery of a temple to the Ice Lady. Suggest that any thing
    questionable is a Rjurik thing, rather than a reason to reflect on the
    Temple of the White Coin. For example, the druids are liable to dislike
    both a temple of Kriesha and a temple of Sera. So, hostility among the
    druids can just be couched in terms that suggest a disapproval of Sera.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  5. #5
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    On Tue, 2003-03-11 at 00:58, Arjan wrote:

    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1421

    Arjan wrote:
    I have been tossing with this idea for one of my players but i would like to have
    you opinions on this.

    The PC (a low level priest of sera) want to establish a temple holding in the
    province of lemnjohen of the giantdowns.
    He is secretly contacted by a group called "the white hand". What he doesnt know
    is that the group is in fact from the kriesha temples of the white witch, trying to
    infiltrate in the human provinces of the giantdowns.

    The group gives the priest of sera all kinds of financial support to establish the
    temple, and sometimes ask a favor in return. The name of the temple is "Circle of
    the white coin".

    Since kriesha`s portfolio is also wealth,making money and trade, it seems to the pc
    that he has a temple of sera.

    my question to you all, how would you handle such a situation? that the temple of
    sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without letting the PC know about it. how would
    you cover it up?

    Arjan


    In my opinion, if the temple is established by the PC for Sera - then it
    is a temple to Sera. The fact that financial backing, and possibly
    several of the temple personnel are supplied by the White Witch is
    completely irrelevant. The infiltrators and the money does not change
    the nature or alliance of the temple worshipers. However ...

    From a strict wording point of view I don`t like the use of "secret" in
    this context -- I think better meaning is conveyed by "hidden". The
    White Witch (through her agents) may also, -- at the same time --
    attempt to establish a hidden temple to Kriesha using the temple of Sera
    as a cover.

    The two temples form parts of two different domains and are administered
    separately. The existence of a hidden/secret cult of Kriesha may be
    reasonably deduced by the player/regent given that it is an active
    temple. However that won`t let them know that the temple is right on top
    of them (literally). Gb and RP are handled as normal for each temple.

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  6. #6
    Special Guest (Donor) morgramen's Avatar
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    The example I'm using for my campaign is the Temple of Elemental Evil. Consider, that the temple itself is dedicated to the elements, and so the worshipping flock adheres to the principles set down by the priests, believeing all the while that they are worshipping the spirit of air, fire, and otherwise.

    However, underneath the robes, and behind closed curtains, the true nature of the elemental religion is in fact, dedicated to Iuz and Zuggtomy. It is these Gods who are in fact recieving the "Juice of Faith", and the elemental aspect is merely a cover to dupe the local peeons.

    Is it not possible then, that the masses can be "fooled" into thinking that the local shrine is something other than what it really is? If it is, then is it not also possible that a highly secretive cult could derive "Faith Juice" by posing as priests of Sera and diverting some of the Juice to their own dark Gods without alerting the actual "True" priests of the otherwise, legitimate, temple?

    Ergo, a "temple within a temple".

    The "divine essence" that is created through worship is there (and this is really the definitive key I think), but does this "god stuff" shoot straight through the express checkout to the God itself, or instead, are the earthly priests (who are in charge of generating that "faith essence") get to manipulate it and direct it to the desired destination? If the earthly priests "create" the essence by preaching doctrine, then couldn't they effectively create "subversive doctrine" that reads like legalesse?
    &quot;You need people of intelligence on this mission... quest... thing.&quot;

  7. #7
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    On Tue, 2003-03-11 at 09:17, morgramen wrote:

    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1421

    morgramen wrote:
    The example I`m using for my campaign is the Temple of Elemental Evil.
    Consider, that the temple itself is dedicated to the elements, and so the
    worshipping flock adheres to the principles set down by the priests,
    believeing all the while that they are worshipping the spirit of air,
    fire, and otherwise.

    However, underneath the robes, and behind closed curtains, the true nature
    of the elemental religion is in fact, dedicated to Iuz and Zuggtomy. It is
    these Gods who are in fact recieving the "Juice of Faith", and the elemental
    aspect is merely a cover to dupe the local peeons.

    Is it not possible then, that the masses can be "fooled" into thinking
    that the local shrine is something other than what it really is? If it is,
    then is it not also possible that a highly secretive cult could derive
    "Faith Juice" by posing as priests of Sera and diverting some of the
    Juice to their own dark Gods without alerting the actual "True" priests
    of the otherwise, legitimate, temple?

    It would be unlikely that you would be able to twist the worship of Sera
    so as to reflect that of Kriesha. Assuming that it could be done
    however, you would have a temple to Kriesha, run by priests of Kriesha
    for the glory of ... etc (just with a name change). The truth is still
    there. But why would a goddess condone such behavior ? I find it highly
    unlikely that you could fool people this way in any case.


    Ergo, a "temple within a temple".

    The "divine essence" that is created through worship is there (and this
    is really the definitive key I think), but does this "god stuff" shoot
    straight through the express checkout to the God itself, or instead, are
    the earthly priests (who are in charge of generating that "faith essence")
    get to manipulate it and direct it to the desired destination? If the
    earthly priests "create" the essence by preaching doctrine, then
    couldn`t they effectively create "subversive doctrine" that reads like
    legalesse?

    But, the postulated position was that the players controlled a priest
    regent. Here, no matter how you slice it - you can`t hide. No true
    priest of Sera will be fooled, and even if you managed to get an
    extremely gullible priest - you aren`t going to fool Sera. Sera`s
    communication/communion with her priests may be through intermediaries
    in most cases -- but how many spells do you see the priest getting
    granted for example?

    In such a case - you don`t have a temple within a temple. You have a
    temple of Kriesha with a load of fresh paint over the sign "Kriesha`s
    Temple", with a bad over-paint job saying "Temple of Sera" (probably
    misspelled at that). There`s no two temples here.



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  8. #8
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    Arjan wrote:

    > the temple of sera is in fact a temple of kriesha without
    > letting the PC know about it.

    I think it is in principle possible to have a temple that claims to
    worship one diety but actually worships another. In fact, I suspect
    temples to Eloele (and individual priests of Eloele serving in temples to
    other gods, pretending to be priests of that other god) do this all the
    time -- the idea of stealing worship seems extremely appropriate to her.
    However, the specifics of this situation (the priest himself does not know
    what is going on) make arranging that much more difficult.

    IMO, the specific ritual done can direct what Morg called "Faith Juice" to
    any desired recipient; what use, if any, that recipient can make of the
    energy is determined by their personal skills and power. For example, IMO
    this is exactly how temple regents gain RP and cast realm spells. It
    should be possible for someone with enough ranks in Knowledge(Religion) to
    construct a ritual that actually sends the energy somewhere other than
    where it looks to a casual observer like it should go, where "casual" is
    defined by some sort of opposed test of Knowledge(Religion). I don`t
    think this plan is defeated by the objections Peter Lubke notes, because
    IMO communication with the gods is much less easy and detailed than he
    seems to think. Especially if the temple is misdirected from the
    beginning, I think the gods would have a tough time noticing (or at
    least pinpointing) the problem.

    According to my theory, no matter how much financial support is provided
    by the Krieshans, if the PC conducts the standard Seran worship service
    out of the standard Seran prayer book, the "Faith Juice" goes to Sera.
    If, however, his backers were to provide a rewritten liturgy, and he used
    those rituals to conduct services, then the energy would go wherever the
    new ritual directed, such as to Kriesha. Whether the priest himself, or
    any other visiting priest of Sera could tell the difference would be a
    matter of Knowledge(Religion) as I said above -- although this does call
    for a variety of circumstance bonuses, as I suspect (as Kenneth Gauck
    suggests) the more conservative druids couldn`t be bothered to tell the
    difference anyway. At this point I am tempted to argue for splitting the
    Knowledge(Religion) skill into different ones for each god.

    There could be other ways to steal the energy, but they are rather more
    intrusive and require more effort to get right and keep hidden. They
    would all have to involve some large-scale magical ritual/spell: a realm
    spell should be able to do the trick, as might summoning some big shadow
    world beastie to inhabit the temple and redirect the outgoing flow of
    "Faith Juice" (doubtless for the price of keeping some fraction for its
    own use). However, I think that for this sort of thing to work without
    the help of the regent priest, it would probably also steal some of his
    RP in the process, which he would almost surely notice.


    Ryan Caveney

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  9. #9
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by morgramen

    The example I'm using for my campaign is the Temple of Elemental Evil.
    You don't like your players, do you??? ;)
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  10. #10
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Anthony Edwards" <anthony_c_edwards@HOTMAIL.COM>
    Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:06 PM


    > I would have to add though that it would be EXTREMELY difficult
    > for it to be a temple to more than one deity. Simply put, the temples
    > of the Ice Lady can ONLY have female priestesses AND practice
    > rather harsh doctrines that don`t at all mesh with Sera. The players
    > character would have to be an IDIOT if he didn`t notice the odd rituals.

    I would think that too if I supposed that a covert temple would use overt
    rituals. You see, the DM wrote the list and told he wanted to have a covert
    temple, so for purposes of argument its a given. I wrote my post to offer
    an explaination of how it might happen, as a way of answering the question
    that was asked. We have previously discussed how the TCV in Osoerde might
    have infiltrated the temples of Cuiraecen, corrupting values of the knights
    of the Stormlord. We have discussed the presence of Torias Griene (priest
    of Eloéle) in the Northern Imperial Temple. Its reasonable to devise an
    intrigue where priests of one temple infiltrate another. The DM who asked
    the question offered a rational based in finance. Why nay say? Its more
    constructive to figure out how it could happen within the setting, given
    that someone is already going to run the senario.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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