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  1. #41
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    >
    Gnomes - Inappropiate to the setting as a PC race. If Rich Baker`s original
    > idea of Fey like creatures where added then it should be added as a Fey
    > Creature in the Monster Appendix. These are no more viable as PC race than
    > Dryads or Pixies.
    I don`t see the difference in distiniguishing a PC race from an NPC race.


    > I support the addition of this material, and my write up on it had it written out as a race. It could easily be made a 1-HD monster in the book.

    Do both. Elves are written up as 1HD monsters in the MM. So are gnomes,
    for that matter. They are also listed with useful player information in the
    Player`s Handbook.

    >
    Minortaurs - Inappropiate to the setting as a PC race. Tell me exactly
    > where you think a Minotaur could rise to power as a regent and where there
    > is a large enough population of other minotaurs for him to govern.
    >
    > I never said anything about minotaurs, either. I don`t think they are appropriate as a PC race, unless the game is a monster game.

    I`ve had a Vos Paladin in one of my games that was more intrusive to the
    overall flavor and feel of my Anuirean campaign than any minotaur would have
    been. In fact, I could easily see Minotaurs filling the same niche of the
    Vos.

    In my interpretation of the materials, I imagine Ettins to be very populous
    in the Northern Highlands. Ettins, perhaps, could do with an entry on game
    statistics for PCs/NPCs along with geography and other information commonly
    listed for "PC races".

    ----

    Why not simply remove the races chapter altogether, and just have a section
    of the book or a whole seperate book be called Creatures of Birthright or
    something? Then the races chapter could just be recommendations on various
    races that may or may not be appropriate for different types of campaigns or
    from different geographic areas or even from different time periods.

    -Lord Rahvin

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  2. #42
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    I can again only support Lord Rahvin's opinion.

    I still don't understand why people make differences between PC and NPC races. It's a matter of the adventure design.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  3. #43
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Azrai" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 4:18 AM

    > I still don`t understand why people make differences between
    > PC and NPC races. It`s a matter of the adventure design.

    Some races are much easier to run in the game than others without producing
    wierd results. The races that don`t beg extra questions about inter-species
    coorperation, taking over existing realms, or use of the classes are PC
    races becasue players are encouraged to use these races. Other races
    require additional DM and player effort to explain and make sense of the
    role of these kinds of characters. So, typically, most examples of such
    characters will be of the non-player kind. We have existing ideas about how
    such monsterous races can be used as PC`s, so there is no firm barrier
    against pixie landed regents or minatour attendees of the College of
    Sorcery.

    Just the existence of Khinasi paladins or Brecht guilders in Anuire require
    some explanation to justify their existence. Going further to make some
    regents or important characters would require more discussion of what is
    possible and how it would be recieved by the the people and other forces
    within Cerilia.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #44
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    Stephen Starfox wrote:

    >Drow:
    >No drow in Cerilia, but there could be something quite like it. Shadowworld
    >halflings. IMC, these are like the drow "template" (everything that separate
    >drow from elves), but applied to halflings instead. Deadly, abd cute, too!
    >/Carl
    >
    Do put an end to the drow discussion I suggest to those that want to
    play an evil underground race driven underground in a great war to play
    an Orog (that is ancient elvish for drow but don´t tell anyone ;-))
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  5. #45
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    On Wed, 2003-03-12 at 21:18, Azrai wrote:

    Azrai wrote:
    I can again only support Lord Rahvin`s opinion.

    I still don`t understand why people make differences between PC and NPC
    races. It`s a matter of the adventure design.


    Originally, D&D and AD&D were deliberately designed to be human-centric,
    even the allowed extra races were demi-human rather than humanoid. There
    a couple of articles in the early Dragon magazines by Gygax on why he
    chose to set it up like that. And, I must admit I`ve never seen any
    argument that has been made to refute the position. (But does not mean
    that other positions in other games are not viable)

    As 3e does not place such a design view on players, it would be entirely
    appropriate to allow other races as PCs in a 3e BR, as long as you don`t
    introduce races that were not in the setting. e.g. a half-dragon has
    never existed in BR, but elves and orogs do.

    It has always (even in 1e and 2e) been possible to play non-standard
    races, e.g. one of the original Greyhawk players had his character
    reincarnated as a lizardman. However, from a role-playing position this
    is not the same as playing a lizardman character, as the character (and
    player) do not have to actually think and act from a lizardman`s
    perspective. From a roleplaying viewpoint, playing non-human races
    should represent the highest challenge a player could attempt, and
    success at it is so very subjective. However, 3e does not promote
    roleplaying - it concentrates on adventure gaming - and the use of
    non-human races matters far less.

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  6. #46
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    >
    Is it really going to stop anyone who actually wants to play a
    template
    >that doesn`t exist in the BR materials? It`s hard to see why someone who`d
    >seen information in another source and wanted to include it BR would be
    >flummoxed by not having it repeated in the BRCS.
    >
    >Yes, actually. So many DMs will say "That`s not a standard race. No, you
    can`t play it." I know I`ve played with many DMs who have been like
    that, wanting things to be normal, generic and cliched as opposed to
    letting the players try something new.

    Mourn, in that case, where would you draw the line? What makes gnolls ok
    but trolls unacceptable? How about half-dragons or genasi? I don`t think
    it`s our responsibility to include every possible race a player might want
    to use.

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  7. #47
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    >How does any of the things that I, personally, proposed do not fit in
    Birthright?

    It`s not that they don`t fit, necessarily. The other thing you have to
    consider is how important they are. Just because a Water Genasi with
    Masela`s bloodline is POSSIBLE and BELIEVABLE doesn`t mean it should have a
    section devoted to it in Chapter 2.

    That sort of thing is appropriate for DMs to rule on in their own games, IMO.

    ...As a compromise, we could have a very small section at the end of the
    races section, that would read like the section on PrCs, that details which
    ones are appropriate for which culture (duelist ok in Brechtur, Knight
    Protector in Anuire).

    It could read something like this:

    "At the DMs option, players may choose to play a nonstandard race. By
    default such characters are *extremely* rare in Cerilia, possibly even
    unique. The following races might be appropriate for Cerilian PCs under
    certain circumstances:

    Genasi (true bloodline of Anduiras, Reynir, Basaia or Masela);
    Tiefling (minor awnsheghlien);
    Half-dragon (the PC is a descendant of one of Cerilia`s remaining true
    dragons).
    etc."

    I`m not saying I think this should be done, but if we end up at an impasse,
    this might be a workable compromise solution.

    I`m still in favor of leaving all this kind of stuff out, and letting
    individual DMs come up with the justification for a PC minotaur or genasi.

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  8. #48
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    At 11:18 AM 3/12/2003 +0100, you wrote:
    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1413
    >
    > Azrai wrote:
    > I can again only support Lord Rahvin`s opinion.
    >
    >I still don`t understand why people make differences between PC and NPC
    races. It`s a matter of the adventure design.

    And I don`t understand why you don`t understand. :)

    We`ve been arguing in circles for some time, this one may come down to a
    vote.

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  9. #49
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    If we are going to put a note about creatures that might be unique and at teh Dm's discretion blah blah

    then we should add the ENTIRE Monster manual, because by this logic, "If I wanted to play a Black Pudding, the rulebook should allow me to do so"

    Can't you see the futility and pointlessness of this?

  10. #50
    > Azrai wrote:
    >I still don`t understand why people make differences between PC and NPC races. It`s a matter of the adventure design.


    No. It is a matter of setting. If you can understand that a setting is different from a mass of rules you will be much closer. d20 is rules. Birthright is a setting. Some rules do not belong in some settings. No ray guns in Birthright.

    Eosin

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    Hello, I guess I gotta have a sig.

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