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  1. #1
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    I noticed for the first time that the old 2E restriction on paladins
    (never retain wealth but tithe it, and have no more than 10 magical items)
    were no longer in the 3E PHB.

    In my opinion, if the 3E PHB dropped this rule (at least I could not find
    it) then it should be included in the Birthright rules.

    If the 2E Paladin never retained wealth, the Birthright Paladin ought to do
    the same.

    And in the case of restricting the 2E Paladin to "nore more than 10 magical
    items, that may not exceed one suit of armour, one shield, four weapons
    (arrows and bolts not counted) and four other magical items" for the core
    rules, which assume that in most worlds magic is readily available, then in
    Birthright this should be even more restricted.

    Even in the 2E Book of Regency it was mentioned that Paladins tithe magical
    items to the temples (in the optional rule of gaining magical items instead
    of taxation).

    On the domain level, a paladin regent (is there anyone besides Elinie?) will
    rarely amass huge amounts of GB, so that rule would not be too restricting,
    and even if he earns much, he certainly spends much as well. And 10 Magical
    items are more than many characters will own in their whole life on Cerilia.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  2. #2
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    In regards to if there are other Paladin regents, I think Arialya (in Khinasi) is lead by a Paladin of Avani.

    As to the rest of it: I agree fully aside from more restriced on magical items.

  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
    Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:06 AM


    > If the 2E Paladin never retained wealth, the Birthright Paladin ought to
    do
    > the same. [regarding realms]

    As a DM, I employ the "seperation between court and state" principle. In
    the medieval state, the state was the personal property of the ruler, during
    the renaissance, the idea that the ruler held an office of the state, and
    the idea was prudent to distingish between the office and the office holder
    arose. So the wealth of the state is not the personal wealth of a paladin.
    Even the court must have a certain amount of oppulance to achieve prestige
    and the associated diplomacy bonus. But the Paladin will seek a kind of
    oppulance which does not make him personally comfortable or indulgent.
    Public buildings, oppulant spaces, and large corps of artists, are
    altogether different. Consider modern republics. They don`t treat their
    heads of state as people to be pampered, but they still have marble
    buildings of grandure, balls, bands, paintings, and poet laureates. Of
    course it would be the same from the paladin`s point of view if they were
    living in a temple, never mind being ruler of a temple. Lots of central
    temples are oppulant and full of art and architecture of glory and grandure.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #4
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dantain

    In regards to if there are other Paladin regents, I think Arialya (in Khinasi) is lead by a Paladin of Avani.

    As to the rest of it: I agree fully aside from more restriced on magical items.
    Yes Ariya is lead by a paladin. Magical items aren't restiricted any more (thanks goodness). If you are high level enough you will have this much that a restriction is absolutely awfull and a real punishment...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The wealth and magic item limitations for paladins were not Birthright specific rules they were in the core 2nd rules. I see no reason to include them into a 3rd ed setting. They had nothing to do with the Birthright campaign setting and as such we really shouldn't look at ways to "rewrite the 3rd ed rules".

    There was also a 2nd ed rule concerning rangers and the number of people that they could adventure with wothout osing experience, that rule has also gone by the wayside in 3rd edition along with the individual exp awards per class (which lead to internal competition amongst the players in trying to jocky their character into getting more, the 3rd ed system promotes "team play" and not competition).
    Duane Eggert

  6. #6
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Having been ignoring the limitation on paladin`s equipment since 1e I`m not
    real worried about whether or not it shows up in a later
    supplement.... I`d suggest, though, that in and of itself the limitations
    don`t make a whole lot of sense. Though certain characters still do run
    around with bags of magic items, in BR where magic items are supposedly
    more rare it`s less likely that characters (regardless if they are paladins
    or not) will have that many items. It could certainly happen, of course,
    but by and large it`s not much of a restriction.

    As for paladin regents, there`s also Elinie and the regent in charge of
    Haelyn`s Aegis is a paladin too, isn`t she?

    Gary

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  7. #7
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    In my opinion, if the 3E PHB dropped this rule (at least I could not find
    it) then it should be included in the Birthright rules.

    If the 2E Paladin never retained wealth, the Birthright Paladin ought to do
    the same.
    That was a bad rule; essentially, it was a way that TSR attempted to "balance" paladins - since they were a strictly better class than fighters if you didn't use the rules for weapon specialization. In 3e, balance works differently - the classes are supposed to be roughly equal in terms of overall power or usefulness (somewhat campaign dependent, of course). In fact, paladins of higher level REQUIRE magical items in order to be balanced, similar to fighters; without magical armaments and equipment, a high-level paladin is a sitting duck to a high-level wizard, or even a monk. Roughly equal amounts of magical gear tends to bridge this gap for paladins and fighters a bit; probably moreso for fighters than paladin, but it's still a real 3e balance concern that mid- to high-level paladins should have enough magical items to compete.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Mark_Aurel" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:48 PM


    > In fact, paladins of higher level REQUIRE magical items in
    > order to be balanced, similar to fighters; without magical
    > armaments and equipment, a high-level paladin is a sitting
    > duck to a high-level wizard, or even a monk. Roughly equal
    > amounts of magical gear tends to bridge this gap for paladins
    > and fighters a bit; probably moreso for fighters than paladin,
    > but it`s still a real 3e balance concern that mid- to high-level
    > paladins should have enough magical items to compete.

    Fighter-types don`t have to have magic, they could also be balanced by
    powerful high level feats (similar to epic feats). Armor specialization,
    attack and damage bonuses, damage reduction, DR penetration, save bonuses,
    all can be delivered by feats to the strait fighter or fighter-type. If
    magic weapons are specifically reduced in frequency, feats, esp higher level
    ones, can be used to make up the difference.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #9
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel

    In fact, paladins of higher level REQUIRE magical items in order to be balanced, similar to fighters; without magical armaments and equipment, a high-level paladin is a sitting duck to a high-level wizard, or even a monk.
    I agree with you completely...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by kgauck
    Fighter-types don`t have to have magic, they could also be balanced by
    powerful high level feats (similar to epic feats). Armor specialization,
    attack and damage bonuses, damage reduction, DR penetration, save bonuses,
    all can be delivered by feats to the strait fighter or fighter-type. If
    magic weapons are specifically reduced in frequency, feats, esp higher level
    ones, can be used to make up the difference.
    Magic items are much easier to acquire than feats. Magic items require the money and the availability, not having to wait two or three levels until you get another feat.

    Also... there's no feats for Armor Specialization (whatever that is), nor any feats to grant a fighter damage reduction or the ability to penetrate damage reduction until you get to the Epic Level material... which should have no bearing on balancing mechanics for levels 1-20.
    I walk this fine thread...

    Mourn

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