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  1. #11
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Sorry Mourn, I had misread the post.

    In 2nd ed it didn't cost anything to have a bloodline. Non-blooded PCs did gain a 10% exp bonus though, so I guess it could be interpreted that it cost a scion the 10% exp bonus.

    Although, using the as currently written BRCS rules, even by committing bloodtheft the scion would never gain a major blood ability without also gaining the +1 ECL that accompanies the major scion template - he would not however gain the bonus to his blood ability score that characters receive at character creation for taking the template (and accompanying ECL). And there is the bonus hitpoints (see Chapter 8) that go with the ECL'd scion templates and the extra starting cash (if the variant listed is used) available for a starting scion to purchase items (including magical ones).

    Also that if a character plays as an elf or half-elf he could also be a wizard without a bloodline, just not be able to cast realm spells. So if a player really wanted to min-max then he could be an elf or half-elf use the dice roll default method and place the highest scores in Int, etc. with his lowest roll in the 7th category, choose not to be blooeded (thus dropping that last ability score) and still be relatively powerful wizard. Now there are a lot of issues with this, most of them role-playing oriented - as in most humans would never trust the character.:)
    Duane Eggert

  2. #12
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    Originally posted by irdeggman
    Sorry Mourn, I had misread the post.
    That's fine.. I do it myself.


    In 2nd ed it didn't cost anything to have a bloodline. Non-blooded PCs did gain a 10% exp bonus though, so I guess it could be interpreted that it cost a scion the 10% exp bonus.
    XP penalties are not always the best route to go. That's why I proposed it as a feat that can be taken at 1st-level. It grants you a Bloodline score and a bloodline derivation. A commoner would spend this feat on something else, and both characters would be balanced with each other.

    Although, using the as currently written BRCS rules, even by committing bloodtheft the scion would never gain a major blood ability without also gaining the +1 ECL that accompanies the major scion template - he would not however gain the bonus to his blood ability score that characters receive at character creation for taking the template (and accompanying ECL). And there is the bonus hitpoints (see Chapter 8) that go with the ECL'd scion templates and the extra starting cash (if the variant listed is used) available for a starting scion to purchase items (including magical ones).
    Well, in the current BRCS rules, the Bloodline ability score and the bloodline strength don't correspond very well. According to those rules, I could have a very low Bloodline score but still be of a great bloodline... that doesn't really make sense. A higher Bloodline score should signify a more powerful bloodline.

    The relationship between the two is severely broken. For example, say I am a scion of a minor bloodline. According to the rules, I have no level adjustment (ECL +0), and I can only gain minor blood abilities, even if my score qualifies me for otherwise. Now, let's say I somehow attain a Bloodline score of 45 (+17, 5/4/4, 90/225 RP). This means that I now have 13 minor abilities from my bloodline, granting me a slew of powers WITHOUT any sort of balance. I am still, technically, an ECL of my normal character level, but I am definitely more powerful than that. Also, I have a higher bloodline score than most scions walking this planet, but they are considered to be of a stronger bloodline. That just makes no sense whatsoever.

    The system seems like it made it half-assed move towards 3rd edition, but stopped short, keeping so many 2nd edition holdovers that it's broken.


    Also that if a character plays as an elf or half-elf he could also be a wizard without a bloodline, just not be able to cast realm spells. So if a player really wanted to min-max then he could be an elf or half-elf use the dice roll default method and place the highest scores in Int, etc. with his lowest roll in the 7th category, choose not to be blooeded (thus dropping that last ability score) and still be relatively powerful wizard. Now there are a lot of issues with this, most of them role-playing oriented - as in most humans would never trust the character.:)
    This appears to be a holdover from 2nd edition to me. I think the classes should be used as they are in the PHB and prestige classes should be used to help fill in the gaps. You want to be a wizard? Be a wizard, study your magic, and learn it. You want to cast realm spells? Qualify for the Realm Caster PrC, which requires a bloodline to get into it. That way, you don't have strange rules and requirements for core classes, but still retain the abilities and the flavor.

    If the character in this example is not a scion, why would he roll 7 ability scores? If you don't have a Bloodline score, you wouldn't even generate a 7th score for it. Any player that generates 7 scores then drops the lowest is just powergaming and should be taken out into a parking lot and summarily beaten within an inch of their life.

    Also, the Realm rules seem to be a bit clunky and sluggish, but I can't really think of a better way to do it at present. The Realm Rules presented in Dragon not too long ago seemed to be a good step, but still seemed to take up too much time. Realms and Holdings should have levels, skill points, "realm feats" and such, to show progression and to balance. Obviously, a DM would not want to send his players with their level 5 Realm up against a character with a level 20 Realm. I'm trying to work these things out, but it's slow going.
    I walk this fine thread...

    Mourn

  3. #13
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    Mourn wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1392
    >XP penalties are not always the best route to go. That`s why I proposed it as a feat that can be taken at 1st-level. It grants you a Bloodline score and a bloodline derivation. A commoner would spend this feat on something else, and both characters would be balanced with each other.
    >
    And that is what the old 3E Travis Doom conversion did. Give a bonus
    feat which commoners can spend on what they like and blooded scions on
    getting a bloodline. I found this good as well.

    >Well, in the current BRCS rules, the Bloodline ability score and the bloodline strength don`t correspond very well. According to those rules, I could have a very low Bloodline score but still be of a great bloodline... that doesn`t really make sense. A higher Bloodline score should signify a more powerful bloodline.
    >
    A bastard son of Prince Avan with a common wife would have a great
    bloodline, but only halve the value.
    If to raise your bloodline from minor to major like described in the old
    2E Book of Regency is something possible only once in a generation
    unless under the most unusual circumstances, then the opposite should be
    true as well. Even by losing some points of bloodline strenght one
    should not automatically lose the great bloodline or the template, nor
    should a minor bloodline simply by gaining a few points of bloodline
    strenght advance to a major in my opinion. It needs more to step to
    another level of blood.

    >The relationship between the two is severely broken. For example, say I am a scion of a minor bloodline. According to the rules, I have no level adjustment (ECL +0), and I can only gain minor blood abilities, even if my score qualifies me for otherwise. Now, let`s say I somehow attain a Bloodline score of 45 (+17, 5/4/4, 90/225 RP). This means that I now have 13 minor abilities from my bloodline, granting me a slew of powers WITHOUT any sort of balance. I am still, technically, an ECL of my normal character level, but I am definitely more powerful than that. Also, I have a higher bloodline score than most scions walking this planet, but they are considered to be of a stronger bloodline. That just makes no sense whatsoever.
    >
    >The system seems like it made it half-assed move towards 3rd edition, but stopped short, keeping so many 2nd edition holdovers that it`s broken.
    >
    The system is not as unlikely as your example. If you create a scion
    with a minor bloodline you will have to run this character for decades
    before he will ever be able to raise his bloodline to 45 without
    dropping a nuclear bomb on Anuire and killing all blooded scions there.
    And IF a character really manages to work his way up and spend time and
    resources to gain that bloodline up so high - then he has earned it. The
    template penalizes as I understand those players, who receive their
    bloodline from the start and not those that work their way up - however
    in most PBEMS you will never be able to do this as most PBEMS will a)
    not last that long B) concentrate more on the domain level with less
    bloodtheft possibilities

    >This appears to be a holdover from 2nd edition to me. I think the classes should be used as they are in the PHB and prestige classes should be used to help fill in the gaps. You want to be a wizard? Be a wizard, study your magic, and learn it. You want to cast realm spells? Qualify for the Realm Caster PrC, which requires a bloodline to get into it. That way, you don`t have strange rules and requirements for core classes, but still retain the abilities and the flavor.
    >
    How can you retain the flavour of a rare magic setting if everyone can
    be wizard? Birthright had severe restrictions on the number of arcane
    spellcasters by having them have either a bloodline or be an
    elf/half-elf (Wizard) or have high ability scores (Magician).

    >If the character in this example is not a scion, why would he roll 7 ability scores? If you don`t have a Bloodline score, you wouldn`t even generate a 7th score for it. Any player that generates 7 scores then drops the lowest is just powergaming and should be taken out into a parking lot and summarily beaten within an inch of their life.
    >
    ? As far as I understand the advantage of the unblooded player is to be
    able to use the good 6 numbers he has thrown on his ability scores, as
    he has no bloodline to care about. This is not powergaming, but the
    advantage for unblooded players and the disadvantage for blooded - as
    long as you are rolling dice and not using the point-buy-system.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  4. #14
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    Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
    And that is what the old 3E Travis Doom conversion did. Give a bonus
    feat which commoners can spend on what they like and blooded scions on
    getting a bloodline. I found this good as well.
    Perhaps, instead of just picking "commoner" and "scion" at character creation, you select your caste. This grants you a bonus feat, maybe some bonus skills. So, you could have a Mercantile caste, a Martial caste, a Scion caste, Unblooded Nobility, etc., with traits to balance each other out.

    A bastard son of Prince Avan with a common wife would have a great
    bloodline, but only halve the value.
    If to raise your bloodline from minor to major like described in the old
    2E Book of Regency is something possible only once in a generation
    unless under the most unusual circumstances, then the opposite should be
    true as well. Even by losing some points of bloodline strenght one
    should not automatically lose the great bloodline or the template, nor
    should a minor bloodline simply by gaining a few points of bloodline
    strenght advance to a major in my opinion. It needs more to step to
    another level of blood.
    Then there's little point to have the Bloodline ability score, since it has no direct bearing on how strong your blood is (unlike the other ability scores, which have a direct bearing on how strong, dexterous, and intelligent you are).

    All I see here is a rule that makes no sense. Two supposedly "connected" systems that do not really work together. If I have a strong bloodline, it should be shown by my high Bloodline score. If I have a weak bloodline, it should be shown by a low Bloodline score. It's logical.

    The system is not as unlikely as your example. If you create a scion
    with a minor bloodline you will have to run this character for decades
    before he will ever be able to raise his bloodline to 45 without
    dropping a nuclear bomb on Anuire and killing all blooded scions there.
    And IF a character really manages to work his way up and spend time and
    resources to gain that bloodline up so high - then he has earned it. The
    template penalizes as I understand those players, who receive their
    bloodline from the start and not those that work their way up - however
    in most PBEMS you will never be able to do this as most PBEMS will a)
    not last that long B) concentrate more on the domain level with less
    bloodtheft possibilities
    The playtest document states "Blooded scions have an ability score that is not possessed by non-blooded characters. This ability score determines the bloodline power of a character in much the same way that their Strength ability determines the character's physical strength." This is a false statement, since Bloodline score no direct bearing on how powerful your bloodline is. The templates don't work with the ability score, because I could have a Bloodline score of 6 (-3) and still be considered a member of a great bloodline. My blood, according to the description of the Bloodline ability score, is weak, but according to the game, I'm a scion of a great bloodline.

    I don't play PBEMs, and most players I know don't. This isn't a document focusing on how to run PBEMs, it's a document focused on playing BR.

    How can you retain the flavour of a rare magic setting if everyone can
    be wizard? Birthright had severe restrictions on the number of arcane
    spellcasters by having them have either a bloodline or be an
    elf/half-elf (Wizard) or have high ability scores (Magician).
    Well, since "true" magic depends on blood, why not make the Sorcerer the bloodline class? Either have it grant a Bloodline at 1st-level (only available to a 1st-level character), then have it require a Bloodline if you multiclass into it later.

    The wizard's spell list could be revised, focusing on the magician's schools... or even make the specialty wizards even more broad, allowing for magicians and other kinds of casters within the same class.

    As far as I understand the advantage of the unblooded player is to be
    able to use the good 6 numbers he has thrown on his ability scores, as
    he has no bloodline to care about. This is not powergaming, but the
    advantage for unblooded players and the disadvantage for blooded - as
    long as you are rolling dice and not using the point-buy-system.
    I've yet to hear how this is a disadvantage to a scion. If a commoner has no need to generate a Bloodline score, then the player has no need to generate 7 scores. If the scion has a need to generate a bloodline score, then the player has a need to generate 7 scores. Simple as that.
    I walk this fine thread...

    Mourn

  5. #15
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mourn

    Well, since "true" magic depends on blood, why not make the Sorcerer the bloodline class? Either have it grant a Bloodline at 1st-level (only available to a 1st-level character), then have it require a Bloodline if you multiclass into it later.
    The sorcerer class is a poor class for a blooded wizard. Sorcerers have a limited number of spells they can know and they don't get bonus feats to use for item creation. This is something that, IMO, really separates wizards from the rest.:)
    Duane Eggert

  6. #16
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    Originally posted by irdeggman
    The sorcerer class is a poor class for a blooded wizard. Sorcerers have a limited number of spells they can know and they don't get bonus feats to use for item creation. This is something that, IMO, really separates wizards from the rest.:)
    Of course the sorcerer is a poor class for a blooded wizard. If you're a sorcerer, and you want to be a wizard, you picked the wrong class. Sorcerers fit with the more "magic from the bloodline" idea, since they are described as having innate magic, stemming from their background or another such source. Make the requirement for the class a bloodline, and it works fine.
    I walk this fine thread...

    Mourn

  7. #17
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mourn


    The playtest document states "Blooded scions have an ability score that is not possessed by non-blooded characters. This ability score determines the bloodline power of a character in much the same way that their Strength ability determines the character's physical strength." This is a false statement, since Bloodline score no direct bearing on how powerful your bloodline is. The templates don't work with the ability score, because I could have a Bloodline score of 6 (-3) and still be considered a member of a great bloodline. My blood, according to the description of the Bloodline ability score, is weak, but according to the game, I'm a scion of a great bloodline.

    Actually the absolute lowest score a scion with the great scion template could have would be a 7 (3 - minimum die roll + 4 {from template}). The templates were set up to give varying blood score modifiers - Minor +0, Major +4, Great +8 and True +12 (unavailable to starting PCs). This was chosen in an attempt to ensure (as best as can be done with any sort of random rolled system) that those with higher strength derivations have higher blood scores. The additional benefits include that the pluses yield an increased modifer (benefits the DC for saves) and more abilities. If using a point buy system then it is even easier to obatin a higher blood score.:)
    Duane Eggert

  8. #18
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    Originally posted by irdeggman
    Actually the absolute lowest score a scion with the great scion template could have would be a 7 (3 - minimum die roll + 4 {from template}). The templates were set up to give varying blood score modifiers - Minor +0, Major +4, Great +8 and True +12 (unavailable to starting PCs). This was chosen in an attempt to ensure (as best as can be done with any sort of random rolled system) that those with higher strength derivations have higher blood scores. The additional benefits include that the pluses yield an increased modifer (benefits the DC for saves) and more abilities. If using a point buy system then it is even easier to obatin a higher blood score.:)
    Well, I did mess that up, didn't I? Heh.

    Well, I'll still continue my argument. Yes, the templates have a reflection of the strength derivation affecting the score, but it's not enough. The scion of a great bloodline could have a minimum of 7 (still a -2 modifier), while the scion of a minor bloodline could still have a higher bloodline score, let's say an 8. According to the template, the great bloodline should be a stronger bloodline than the minor one, but it isn't reflected in the bloodline score. What is the point of having a bloodline score to reflect the bloodline's strength, if in reality, it doesn't?
    I walk this fine thread...

    Mourn

  9. #19
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Mourn,
    The 2nd ed system also could produce the same effects that you are concerned with.

    Tainted (4d4)
    Minor (5d6)
    Major (8d6)
    Great (8d8)

    It was always possible, though not real likely, for a tainted bloodline to have a higher strength than a great bloodline: Tainted (16) Great (8). At least with the proposed system, the character has the option to place a higher ability score in his bloodline (hence being a better regent, etc.) and then choose a template which would increase this score thus there is an attempt to minimize the descepancies that you brought up.:)
    Duane Eggert

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    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

    A bastard son of Prince Avan with a common wife would have a great bloodline, but only halve the value.
    If to raise your bloodline from minor to major like described in the old 2E Book of Regency is something possible only once in a generation unless under the most unusual circumstances, then the opposite should be true as well. Even by losing some points of bloodline strenght one should not automatically lose the great bloodline or the template, nor should a minor bloodline simply by gaining a few points of bloodline
    strenght advance to a major in my opinion. It needs more to step to another level of blood.
    I agree completely with you. The bloodline system inheritement should be the same as in 2nd Edition. Any other makes no sense. Stiblings should have the same bloodline score and the same strength (but not the same abilities). The bloodline strenght MUSTN'T be weaker than the most powerful of their parents...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

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