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Thread: 2e Bloodlines in 3e Style.
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03-07-2003, 07:35 AM #11
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Originally posted by geeman
>Score Strength
>0 Commoner
>1-9 Tainted
>10-15 Weak (Minor)
>16-21 Strong (Major)
>22-27 Noble (Great)
>27+ Pure (True)
If you`re going with bloodline as an ability score you might want to sync
up the terms with even numbered scores so as to relate them a little more
closely with the way the modifiers go up.
Out of curiosity, why the different terms?
As for the different terms... it's just the way I write... I usually phrase some of my mechanics to flow more with what a person in the setting would say...
A couple of people have suggested this in the past. For many of the blood
abilities this would probably be apt, but on other occasions not so
much. It works out better if you decide on a case by case basis whether a
blood ability should be a spell-like, a supernatural or an extraordinary
ability.
I`m not opposed to gaining no permanent benefit for one scion killing
another with a lower bloodline then his own (though I think it should be
something substantially lower; like less than half the bloodline strength
of the scion committing bloodtheft) but a bonus to various types of checks
might not be the best way to go. For one thing, an act of bloodtheft on a
scion with a more powerful bloodline would seem to merit at least those
same bonuses for a longer period of time in addition to the increase in
bloodline. After all if a character gets a bonus for killing someone with
a bloodline score half his own doesn`t it make sense that he would get a
similar bonus for killing someone with twice as powerful a bloodline? For
another, a temporary bonus to a couple of checks seems rather light. +1 to
attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws is about equivalent to the
effects of a couple of the 2nd level spells that increase an ability
score. That`s kind of light for having snuffed out/stolen the power of the
gods in an individual.
Those all seem to basically make sense. One thing to note, however, is
that the above system does equate bloodline strength with bloodline score,
which most other people`s systems differentiate for various
reasons. Because of that it does make for a kind of weirdness in one
regard. If a scion with a bloodline of tainted(9) kills a scion with a
bloodline of weak(10) he will wind up with a bloodline of strong(13)
correct? +2 tainted, +2 strong. A scion with a bloodline of weak(10) who
kills the same guy would end up with a strong(12) bloodline, right? So the
scion with the weaker bloodline strength winds up benefiting more. That
happens at the upper end of each bloodline strength rating.I walk this fine thread...
Mourn
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03-07-2003, 06:51 PM #12
At 08:35 AM 3/7/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:
>> >Score Strength
>> >0 Commoner
>> >1-9 Tainted
>> >10-15 Weak (Minor)
>> >16-21 Strong (Major)
>> >22-27 Noble (Great)
>> >27+ Pure (True)
>>
>>If you`re going with bloodline as an ability score you might want to sync
>>up the terms with even numbered scores so as to relate them a little more
>>closely with the way the modifiers go up.
>
>Well, each bloodline strength category begins on an even number, and ends
>on an odd modifier for a reason. For instance, if a 16 was the cut off for
>a minor bloodline, a character with a minor bloodline (16) and a scion
>with a major bloodline (17) would have the same modifier... that doesn`t
>seem right to me.
There`s a typo (27+ for pure/true bloodline) which threw me a bit.
Of course, the placement of various modifiers in accordance with bloodline
strength is eminently debatable. Some folks have pointed out that in
D&D/D20 one doesn`t really even need an ability score, all one needs is an
ability score modifier, so which scores would be which strengths is
something that might need some consideration.
>How would you base it on existing spells and feats? That is, at
>what point
>would a scion`s blood ability get to the equivalent of a 9th level
>spell?
>When it has the power that a ninth level spell demonstrates. There will
>not be very many abilities of that level, and even less scions to possess
>them. I`m thinking more of blood abilities based on spell-like abilities
>from levels 1-5, supernatural and extraordinary abilities.
I put up a bunch of stuff recently about using "bloodline points" to rate
(and extend) the power of various blood abilities, so I was hoping you had
a system for determining the relative power of blood abilities that I could
use for comparison.
>I`m not opposed to gaining no permanent benefit for one scion killing
>another with a lower bloodline then his own (though I think it should be
>something substantially lower; like less than half the bloodline strength
>of the scion committing bloodtheft) but a bonus to various types of checks
>might not be the best way to go. For one thing, an act of bloodtheft on a
>scion with a more powerful bloodline would seem to merit at least those
>same bonuses for a longer period of time in addition to the increase in
>bloodline. After all if a character gets a bonus for killing someone with
>a bloodline score half his own doesn`t it make sense that he would get a
>similar bonus for killing someone with twice as powerful a bloodline? For
>another, a temporary bonus to a couple of checks seems rather light. +1 to
>attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws is about equivalent to the
>effects of a couple of the 2nd level spells that increase an ability
>score. That`s kind of light for having snuffed out/stolen the power of the
>gods in an individual.
>True. Perhaps you could look the system over, take what you think is could
>and come up with some ideas for the rest? Why not help me hammer it out?
OK. When it comes to a system of blood theft I really think it should be
tied to bloodline score, not bloodline strength. Bloodline strength is a
system that has all of four (maybe five) categories. It doesn`t lend
itself to much subtley or mathematical regularity, even in a case where the
bloodline strength categories have been associated with increasing sets of
numbers.
When it comes to bloodtheft I was thinking of breaking down the relative
"rewards" by score a bit, comparing the scores to determine how much of a
benefit there might be. The categories might be something like this:
#1 Slayer`s bloodline score <= half victim`s bloodline score
#2 Slayer`s bloodline score > half victim`s bloodline score
#3 Slayer`s bloodline score <= victim`s bloodline score
#4 Slayer`s bloodline score < half victim`s bloodline score
#5 Slayer`s bloodline score < one quarter victim`s bloodline score
#6 Slayer`s bloodline score < one tenth victim`s bloodline score
That might seem a bit detailed, but I was thinking that if one had a series
of categories one could factor in various circumstantial issues. An act of
bloodtheft in which the victim was the last of his line, for instance,
might shift the category up one notch. An act of bloodtheft using a
tighmaevril weapon might shift it up two. There`d need to be categories #7
and #8 for such a system in order to accommodate the unlikely possibility
of a scion with a tainted bloodline killing the Gorgon with a tighmaevril
weapon.
In case #1 I went with "less than or equal to" in order to avoid a
situation that has occasionally been brought up: scions who kill off their
own children as part of some twisted pogrom to raise their bloodline. It`s
been speculated on several occasions that a scion could intentionally breed
with commoners in order to eventually commit bloodtheft on his
offspring. If one doesn`t get an increase on bloodline from killing
someone with half or less of one`s bloodline score that couldn`t
happen. This would only deal with cases where scions have offspring with
commoners, of course, since their bloodline score would then be half that
of their parent. If two scions have children their progeny`s bloodline
score will be higher, but since there are fewer scions around one couldn`t
have quite the endless supply of them being "farmed out" as has been
suggested. Things like that could still happen, but they`d be much less
productive than the original system allowed.
Exactly what the rewards should be for those cases is a bit of a
bugaboo. One could just have each category represent a cumulative +1 to
the bloodline strength of the slayer. Something about that doesn`t really
satisfy me, however, so if someone could come up with a better set of
rewards I`d be very interested.
Gary
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03-07-2003, 09:53 PM #13
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There`s a typo (27+ for pure/true bloodline) which threw me a bit.
Of course, the placement of various modifiers in accordance with bloodline
strength is eminently debatable. Some folks have pointed out that in
D&D/D20 one doesn`t really even need an ability score, all one needs is an
ability score modifier, so which scores would be which strengths is
something that might need some consideration.
Well, let's take a look at the modifiers associated with those scores. While we're at it, let's also compare it to the bonus spells chart and determine blood abilities.
Tainted (0-9) has modifiers of -5 to -1, which makes any use of the Bloodline ability score a drawback. At these scores, the scion would gain no blood abilities.
Weak (10-15) has modifiers of +0, +1, and +2. So, the weakest of the group receive no penalty, but no drawback from their bloodline. The next two gain a small bonus, as well as a 1st-level blood ability for the 12-13 scores, and a 1st- and 2nd-level blood ability for the 14-15 scores.
Strong (16-21) has modifiers of +3, +4, and +5. This is a good ability score rating for a character, with a solid bonus. At 16-17, they gain a 3rd-level ability, at 18-19 they gain a 4th-level ability, and at 20-21 they gain an additional 1st-level ability and a 5th-level ability. I don't find that overly powerful, but it might require an ECL adjustment.
Noble (22-27) has modifiers of +6, +7, and +8. They gain 6th, 7th, and 8th level abilities, respectively. They also gain an additional 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th-level ability.
True (28+) begins with modifiers of +9, +10, and +11, then scales infinitely. They gain the last of the blood abilities, and continue to gain more.
The Gorgon (60) would have a +25 modifier, and 7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5 blood abilities. That does seem a little much to me...
I put up a bunch of stuff recently about using "bloodline points" to rate
(and extend) the power of various blood abilities, so I was hoping you had
a system for determining the relative power of blood abilities that I could
use for comparison.
OK. When it comes to a system of blood theft I really think it should be
tied to bloodline score, not bloodline strength. Bloodline strength is a
system that has all of four (maybe five) categories. It doesn`t lend
itself to much subtley or mathematical regularity, even in a case where the
bloodline strength categories have been associated with increasing sets of
numbers.
When it comes to bloodtheft I was thinking of breaking down the relative
"rewards" by score a bit, comparing the scores to determine how much of a
benefit there might be. The categories might be something like this:
#1 Slayer`s bloodline score <= half victim`s bloodline score
#2 Slayer`s bloodline score > half victim`s bloodline score
#3 Slayer`s bloodline score <= victim`s bloodline score
#4 Slayer`s bloodline score < half victim`s bloodline score
#5 Slayer`s bloodline score < one quarter victim`s bloodline score
#6 Slayer`s bloodline score < one tenth victim`s bloodline score
That might seem a bit detailed, but I was thinking that if one had a series
of categories one could factor in various circumstantial issues. An act of
bloodtheft in which the victim was the last of his line, for instance,
might shift the category up one notch. An act of bloodtheft using a
tighmaevril weapon might shift it up two. There`d need to be categories #7
and #8 for such a system in order to accommodate the unlikely possibility
of a scion with a tainted bloodline killing the Gorgon with a tighmaevril
weapon.
In case #1 I went with "less than or equal to" in order to avoid a
situation that has occasionally been brought up: scions who kill off their
own children as part of some twisted pogrom to raise their bloodline. It`s
been speculated on several occasions that a scion could intentionally breed
with commoners in order to eventually commit bloodtheft on his
offspring. If one doesn`t get an increase on bloodline from killing
someone with half or less of one`s bloodline score that couldn`t
happen. This would only deal with cases where scions have offspring with
commoners, of course, since their bloodline score would then be half that
of their parent. If two scions have children their progeny`s bloodline
score will be higher, but since there are fewer scions around one couldn`t
have quite the endless supply of them being "farmed out" as has been
suggested. Things like that could still happen, but they`d be much less
productive than the original system allowed.
Exactly what the rewards should be for those cases is a bit of a
bugaboo. One could just have each category represent a cumulative +1 to
the bloodline strength of the slayer. Something about that doesn`t really
satisfy me, however, so if someone could come up with a better set of
rewards I`d be very interested.
If your Bloodline is greater than your victim's, you gain a +2 bonus.
If your Bloodline is equal to your victim's, you gain a +4 bonus.
If your Bloodline is less than your victim's, you gain a +6 bonus.
If your Bloodline is less than half your victim's, you gain a +8 bonus.
Using a tighmaevril weapon to commit bloodtheft grants you an additional +2 bonus.
Thus a scion (10) using a tighmaevril weapon to slay another scion (22) would gain a +10 bonus to his Bloodline score.
I believe the bonuses should be even, so as to always increase the capability of the scion... absorbing the divine energy should always give you something new.
And I think tighmaevril should be written up as a material, ala DMG materials (or Magic of Faerun), rather than as an enhancement.
Here's a proposed version. I've never seen a description of what it looks like, so I am adding my own description to it... if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know.
Tighmaevril: Tighmaevril ("Bloodsilver") is a very rare silvery metal, shot through with streaks of rust. Weapons fashioned from tighmaevril have a natural enhancement bonus to attack and damage. These bonuses do not stack with any other enhancement bonuses. Thus, a tighmaevril (+3) greatsword enchanted with a +5 enhancement bonus effectively has a +5 enhancement bonus. In an area where magic does not function, it still retains its natural +3 enhancement bonus.
Tighmaevril weapons assist with bloodtheft. Any scion reduced to -10 hit points or lower by a tighmaevril weapon automatically suffers the effects of bloodtheft, even if the attack is not a coup de grace. Tighmaevril weapons increase the bonus gained through bloodtheft by +2.
Weapons or armors fashioned from tighmaevril are treated as masterwork items with regard to creation times, but the masterwork quality does not affect the enhancement bonus of weapons or the armor check penalty of armor.
Tighmaevril has a hardness of 15 and 30 hit points per inch of thickness.
Item __________________ Enhancement ________ Price Modifier
Weapon (1d4/1d6) +1 +4,000 gp
Weapon (1d8/1d10) +2 +12,000 gp
Weapon (1d12/2d6) +3 +36,000 gpI walk this fine thread...
Mourn
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03-10-2003, 08:10 PM #14
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No comments, ideas, or arguments?
I walk this fine thread...
Mourn
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06-05-2003, 11:14 PM #15
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Originally posted by Mourn
The Gorgon (Bld 60), a true scion, killing a weaker scion would gain nothing but a temporary bonus... a "high," if you will, but with no substantial increase. He would have to cultivate a pure bloodline before gaining anything... and even then, it's only a +2 increase.
Its one of the disadvantages of being blooded. Big scary monsters may mug you it become even more powerful.
Adam
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06-06-2003, 09:06 AM #16
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> Dahak wrote:
> Its one of the disadvantages of being blooded. Big
> scary monsters may mug you it become even more
> powerful.
>
It is also one of the disadvantage of being a big,
scary monster. Young, ambitious knights-errant might
come hunting you for your bloodline!
Therefore, IMC, most monsters had a bloodline score of
2* HD (2ed scale). Most of them are the descendants of
Avishleign (?) anyway! This makes monster-hunting a
reasonable and profitable pastime for young nobles.
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07-06-2003, 06:58 AM #17
People, I can see your points, but some of them are pretty... tedious! For example, is there any real problme whether they called it an "ability score", if they are going to make this clear?
Secondly, I would like to see you playing a point-buy built paladin with a true bloodline... :P
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07-13-2003, 03:08 PM #18
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Originally posted by geeman@Feb 23 2003, 09:08 PM
At 08:01 PM 2/23/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:
There are certainly ancillary role-playing aspects, but it`s primarily game
mechanics here. Tainted bloodlines representing low numerical scores are
more easily justified if using some sort of bloodline system that does not
relate to the ability score mechanic because the ability score mechanic
starts at 3 using dice or, worse, starts at 8 using the point buy
method. Figuring the bloodline strength of offspring using bloodline as an
ability score becomes very different from how it was originally
done. Also, bloodline as an ability score makes all blooded characters
earn RP in increments of 2, minimum 16. That`s higher than many regents
presented in the original materials. I just pulled out RoE and turned to
random page and on that page there was Parnien Anuvier Iniere (MA; T2; Br,
minor, 15; LN) whose bloodline would be have to be at least 16 to equate to
the bloodline as an ability score system.
When it gets right down to it, losing the tainted bloodline strength
removes several character concepts that existed in the original rules.
In my birthright campaign (in which none of the PCs are currently regents) they rolled up their bloodline scores and I think maybe 1 out of the 5 characters has a score above 24...which under these 3e rules would have meant no bloodline abilities. Admittably, rolling for bloodline score or buying it with point buy is likely to end up with all PCs having hier scores than before (solving the ability problem) but it does present the issue that there are lots of NPC that are at that level and below.
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