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  1. #11
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    Originally posted by geeman
    >Score Strength
    >0 Commoner
    >1-9 Tainted
    >10-15 Weak (Minor)
    >16-21 Strong (Major)
    >22-27 Noble (Great)
    >27+ Pure (True)

    If you`re going with bloodline as an ability score you might want to sync
    up the terms with even numbered scores so as to relate them a little more
    closely with the way the modifiers go up.

    Out of curiosity, why the different terms?
    Well, each bloodline strength category begins on an even number, and ends on an odd modifier for a reason. For instance, if a 16 was the cut off for a minor bloodline, a character with a minor bloodline (16) and a scion with a major bloodline (17) would have the same modifier... that doesn't seem right to me.

    As for the different terms... it's just the way I write... I usually phrase some of my mechanics to flow more with what a person in the setting would say...

    A couple of people have suggested this in the past. For many of the blood
    abilities this would probably be apt, but on other occasions not so
    much. It works out better if you decide on a case by case basis whether a
    blood ability should be a spell-like, a supernatural or an extraordinary
    ability.
    I agree there.

    How would you base it on existing spells and feats? That is, at what point
    would a scion`s blood ability get to the equivalent of a 9th level spell?
    When it has the power that a ninth level spell demonstrates. There will not be very many abilities of that level, and even less scions to possess them. I'm thinking more of blood abilities based on spell-like abilities from levels 1-5, supernatural and extraordinary abilities.

    I`m not opposed to gaining no permanent benefit for one scion killing
    another with a lower bloodline then his own (though I think it should be
    something substantially lower; like less than half the bloodline strength
    of the scion committing bloodtheft) but a bonus to various types of checks
    might not be the best way to go. For one thing, an act of bloodtheft on a
    scion with a more powerful bloodline would seem to merit at least those
    same bonuses for a longer period of time in addition to the increase in
    bloodline. After all if a character gets a bonus for killing someone with
    a bloodline score half his own doesn`t it make sense that he would get a
    similar bonus for killing someone with twice as powerful a bloodline? For
    another, a temporary bonus to a couple of checks seems rather light. +1 to
    attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws is about equivalent to the
    effects of a couple of the 2nd level spells that increase an ability
    score. That`s kind of light for having snuffed out/stolen the power of the
    gods in an individual.
    True. Perhaps you could look the system over, take what you think is could and come up with some ideas for the rest? Why not help me hammer it out?

    Those all seem to basically make sense. One thing to note, however, is
    that the above system does equate bloodline strength with bloodline score,
    which most other people`s systems differentiate for various
    reasons. Because of that it does make for a kind of weirdness in one
    regard. If a scion with a bloodline of tainted(9) kills a scion with a
    bloodline of weak(10) he will wind up with a bloodline of strong(13)
    correct? +2 tainted, +2 strong. A scion with a bloodline of weak(10) who
    kills the same guy would end up with a strong(12) bloodline, right? So the
    scion with the weaker bloodline strength winds up benefiting more. That
    happens at the upper end of each bloodline strength rating.
    You are so right. I'll add a cap to it, so that you can never increase your bloodline score above your victim's through bloodtheft.
    I walk this fine thread...

    Mourn

  2. #12
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:35 AM 3/7/2003 +0100, Mourn wrote:

    >> >Score Strength
    >> >0 Commoner
    >> >1-9 Tainted
    >> >10-15 Weak (Minor)
    >> >16-21 Strong (Major)
    >> >22-27 Noble (Great)
    >> >27+ Pure (True)
    >>
    >>If you`re going with bloodline as an ability score you might want to sync
    >>up the terms with even numbered scores so as to relate them a little more
    >>closely with the way the modifiers go up.
    >
    >Well, each bloodline strength category begins on an even number, and ends
    >on an odd modifier for a reason. For instance, if a 16 was the cut off for
    >a minor bloodline, a character with a minor bloodline (16) and a scion
    >with a major bloodline (17) would have the same modifier... that doesn`t
    >seem right to me.

    There`s a typo (27+ for pure/true bloodline) which threw me a bit.

    Of course, the placement of various modifiers in accordance with bloodline
    strength is eminently debatable. Some folks have pointed out that in
    D&D/D20 one doesn`t really even need an ability score, all one needs is an
    ability score modifier, so which scores would be which strengths is
    something that might need some consideration.

    >
    How would you base it on existing spells and feats? That is, at
    >what point
    >would a scion`s blood ability get to the equivalent of a 9th level
    >spell?
    >
    >When it has the power that a ninth level spell demonstrates. There will
    >not be very many abilities of that level, and even less scions to possess
    >them. I`m thinking more of blood abilities based on spell-like abilities
    >from levels 1-5, supernatural and extraordinary abilities.

    I put up a bunch of stuff recently about using "bloodline points" to rate
    (and extend) the power of various blood abilities, so I was hoping you had
    a system for determining the relative power of blood abilities that I could
    use for comparison.

    >
    I`m not opposed to gaining no permanent benefit for one scion killing
    >another with a lower bloodline then his own (though I think it should be
    >something substantially lower; like less than half the bloodline strength
    >of the scion committing bloodtheft) but a bonus to various types of checks
    >might not be the best way to go. For one thing, an act of bloodtheft on a
    >scion with a more powerful bloodline would seem to merit at least those
    >same bonuses for a longer period of time in addition to the increase in
    >bloodline. After all if a character gets a bonus for killing someone with
    >a bloodline score half his own doesn`t it make sense that he would get a
    >similar bonus for killing someone with twice as powerful a bloodline? For
    >another, a temporary bonus to a couple of checks seems rather light. +1 to
    >attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws is about equivalent to the
    >effects of a couple of the 2nd level spells that increase an ability
    >score. That`s kind of light for having snuffed out/stolen the power of the
    >gods in an individual.
    >
    >True. Perhaps you could look the system over, take what you think is could
    >and come up with some ideas for the rest? Why not help me hammer it out?

    OK. When it comes to a system of blood theft I really think it should be
    tied to bloodline score, not bloodline strength. Bloodline strength is a
    system that has all of four (maybe five) categories. It doesn`t lend
    itself to much subtley or mathematical regularity, even in a case where the
    bloodline strength categories have been associated with increasing sets of
    numbers.

    When it comes to bloodtheft I was thinking of breaking down the relative
    "rewards" by score a bit, comparing the scores to determine how much of a
    benefit there might be. The categories might be something like this:

    #1 Slayer`s bloodline score <= half victim`s bloodline score
    #2 Slayer`s bloodline score > half victim`s bloodline score
    #3 Slayer`s bloodline score <= victim`s bloodline score
    #4 Slayer`s bloodline score < half victim`s bloodline score
    #5 Slayer`s bloodline score < one quarter victim`s bloodline score
    #6 Slayer`s bloodline score < one tenth victim`s bloodline score

    That might seem a bit detailed, but I was thinking that if one had a series
    of categories one could factor in various circumstantial issues. An act of
    bloodtheft in which the victim was the last of his line, for instance,
    might shift the category up one notch. An act of bloodtheft using a
    tighmaevril weapon might shift it up two. There`d need to be categories #7
    and #8 for such a system in order to accommodate the unlikely possibility
    of a scion with a tainted bloodline killing the Gorgon with a tighmaevril
    weapon.

    In case #1 I went with "less than or equal to" in order to avoid a
    situation that has occasionally been brought up: scions who kill off their
    own children as part of some twisted pogrom to raise their bloodline. It`s
    been speculated on several occasions that a scion could intentionally breed
    with commoners in order to eventually commit bloodtheft on his
    offspring. If one doesn`t get an increase on bloodline from killing
    someone with half or less of one`s bloodline score that couldn`t
    happen. This would only deal with cases where scions have offspring with
    commoners, of course, since their bloodline score would then be half that
    of their parent. If two scions have children their progeny`s bloodline
    score will be higher, but since there are fewer scions around one couldn`t
    have quite the endless supply of them being "farmed out" as has been
    suggested. Things like that could still happen, but they`d be much less
    productive than the original system allowed.

    Exactly what the rewards should be for those cases is a bit of a
    bugaboo. One could just have each category represent a cumulative +1 to
    the bloodline strength of the slayer. Something about that doesn`t really
    satisfy me, however, so if someone could come up with a better set of
    rewards I`d be very interested.

    Gary

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  3. #13
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    There`s a typo (27+ for pure/true bloodline) which threw me a bit.

    Of course, the placement of various modifiers in accordance with bloodline
    strength is eminently debatable. Some folks have pointed out that in
    D&D/D20 one doesn`t really even need an ability score, all one needs is an
    ability score modifier, so which scores would be which strengths is
    something that might need some consideration.
    Yeah, I noticed that when I replied to your message. Should be 28+.

    Well, let's take a look at the modifiers associated with those scores. While we're at it, let's also compare it to the bonus spells chart and determine blood abilities.

    Tainted (0-9) has modifiers of -5 to -1, which makes any use of the Bloodline ability score a drawback. At these scores, the scion would gain no blood abilities.

    Weak (10-15) has modifiers of +0, +1, and +2. So, the weakest of the group receive no penalty, but no drawback from their bloodline. The next two gain a small bonus, as well as a 1st-level blood ability for the 12-13 scores, and a 1st- and 2nd-level blood ability for the 14-15 scores.

    Strong (16-21) has modifiers of +3, +4, and +5. This is a good ability score rating for a character, with a solid bonus. At 16-17, they gain a 3rd-level ability, at 18-19 they gain a 4th-level ability, and at 20-21 they gain an additional 1st-level ability and a 5th-level ability. I don't find that overly powerful, but it might require an ECL adjustment.

    Noble (22-27) has modifiers of +6, +7, and +8. They gain 6th, 7th, and 8th level abilities, respectively. They also gain an additional 2nd-, 3rd-, and 4th-level ability.

    True (28+) begins with modifiers of +9, +10, and +11, then scales infinitely. They gain the last of the blood abilities, and continue to gain more.

    The Gorgon (60) would have a +25 modifier, and 7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5 blood abilities. That does seem a little much to me...

    I put up a bunch of stuff recently about using "bloodline points" to rate
    (and extend) the power of various blood abilities, so I was hoping you had
    a system for determining the relative power of blood abilities that I could
    use for comparison.
    I'm going to go over the blood abilities with a fine-toothed comb, and break each of the different abilities into its individual parts, compare power levels, and probably end up spreading the abilities around, since some of the current ones grant you up to four abilities at once, while others give you some minor benefit. They're not really balanced, as done now, but its a start. I'm going to focus on levels 1-5.

    OK. When it comes to a system of blood theft I really think it should be
    tied to bloodline score, not bloodline strength. Bloodline strength is a
    system that has all of four (maybe five) categories. It doesn`t lend
    itself to much subtley or mathematical regularity, even in a case where the
    bloodline strength categories have been associated with increasing sets of
    numbers.
    True. But that's only the case because it doesn't scale properly. Tainted has 9 numbers associated it with it, weak/strong/noble have 5 numbers associated with it, and pure has unlimited numbers. If each category had a rating system, like five ranks in each category, it would be much more regular and logical.

    When it comes to bloodtheft I was thinking of breaking down the relative
    "rewards" by score a bit, comparing the scores to determine how much of a
    benefit there might be. The categories might be something like this:

    #1 Slayer`s bloodline score <= half victim`s bloodline score
    #2 Slayer`s bloodline score > half victim`s bloodline score
    #3 Slayer`s bloodline score <= victim`s bloodline score
    #4 Slayer`s bloodline score < half victim`s bloodline score
    #5 Slayer`s bloodline score < one quarter victim`s bloodline score
    #6 Slayer`s bloodline score < one tenth victim`s bloodline score

    That might seem a bit detailed, but I was thinking that if one had a series
    of categories one could factor in various circumstantial issues. An act of
    bloodtheft in which the victim was the last of his line, for instance,
    might shift the category up one notch. An act of bloodtheft using a
    tighmaevril weapon might shift it up two. There`d need to be categories #7
    and #8 for such a system in order to accommodate the unlikely possibility
    of a scion with a tainted bloodline killing the Gorgon with a tighmaevril
    weapon.

    In case #1 I went with "less than or equal to" in order to avoid a
    situation that has occasionally been brought up: scions who kill off their
    own children as part of some twisted pogrom to raise their bloodline. It`s
    been speculated on several occasions that a scion could intentionally breed
    with commoners in order to eventually commit bloodtheft on his
    offspring. If one doesn`t get an increase on bloodline from killing
    someone with half or less of one`s bloodline score that couldn`t
    happen. This would only deal with cases where scions have offspring with
    commoners, of course, since their bloodline score would then be half that
    of their parent. If two scions have children their progeny`s bloodline
    score will be higher, but since there are fewer scions around one couldn`t
    have quite the endless supply of them being "farmed out" as has been
    suggested. Things like that could still happen, but they`d be much less
    productive than the original system allowed.

    Exactly what the rewards should be for those cases is a bit of a
    bugaboo. One could just have each category represent a cumulative +1 to
    the bloodline strength of the slayer. Something about that doesn`t really
    satisfy me, however, so if someone could come up with a better set of
    rewards I`d be very interested.
    That is pretty detailed. It adds more math to the system, as well as checking on each category. Let's try to simplify it.

    If your Bloodline is greater than your victim's, you gain a +2 bonus.
    If your Bloodline is equal to your victim's, you gain a +4 bonus.
    If your Bloodline is less than your victim's, you gain a +6 bonus.
    If your Bloodline is less than half your victim's, you gain a +8 bonus.

    Using a tighmaevril weapon to commit bloodtheft grants you an additional +2 bonus.

    Thus a scion (10) using a tighmaevril weapon to slay another scion (22) would gain a +10 bonus to his Bloodline score.

    I believe the bonuses should be even, so as to always increase the capability of the scion... absorbing the divine energy should always give you something new.

    And I think tighmaevril should be written up as a material, ala DMG materials (or Magic of Faerun), rather than as an enhancement.

    Here's a proposed version. I've never seen a description of what it looks like, so I am adding my own description to it... if I'm wrong, feel free to let me know.

    Tighmaevril: Tighmaevril ("Bloodsilver") is a very rare silvery metal, shot through with streaks of rust. Weapons fashioned from tighmaevril have a natural enhancement bonus to attack and damage. These bonuses do not stack with any other enhancement bonuses. Thus, a tighmaevril (+3) greatsword enchanted with a +5 enhancement bonus effectively has a +5 enhancement bonus. In an area where magic does not function, it still retains its natural +3 enhancement bonus.
    Tighmaevril weapons assist with bloodtheft. Any scion reduced to -10 hit points or lower by a tighmaevril weapon automatically suffers the effects of bloodtheft, even if the attack is not a coup de grace. Tighmaevril weapons increase the bonus gained through bloodtheft by +2.
    Weapons or armors fashioned from tighmaevril are treated as masterwork items with regard to creation times, but the masterwork quality does not affect the enhancement bonus of weapons or the armor check penalty of armor.
    Tighmaevril has a hardness of 15 and 30 hit points per inch of thickness.

    Item __________________ Enhancement ________ Price Modifier
    Weapon (1d4/1d6) +1 +4,000 gp
    Weapon (1d8/1d10) +2 +12,000 gp
    Weapon (1d12/2d6) +3 +36,000 gp
    I walk this fine thread...

    Mourn

  4. #14
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    No comments, ideas, or arguments?
    I walk this fine thread...

    Mourn

  5. #15
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    Originally posted by Mourn
    The Gorgon (Bld 60), a true scion, killing a weaker scion would gain nothing but a temporary bonus... a "high," if you will, but with no substantial increase. He would have to cultivate a pure bloodline before gaining anything... and even then, it's only a +2 increase.
    Except we know the Gorgon does kill lesser scions [note how few there are in the Gorgon's crown has] for thier bloodlines.

    Its one of the disadvantages of being blooded. Big scary monsters may mug you it become even more powerful.

    Adam

  6. #16
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    > Dahak wrote:
    > Its one of the disadvantages of being blooded. Big
    > scary monsters may mug you it become even more
    > powerful.
    >

    It is also one of the disadvantage of being a big,
    scary monster. Young, ambitious knights-errant might
    come hunting you for your bloodline!

    Therefore, IMC, most monsters had a bloodline score of
    2* HD (2ed scale). Most of them are the descendants of
    Avishleign (?) anyway! This makes monster-hunting a
    reasonable and profitable pastime for young nobles.

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  7. #17
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    People, I can see your points, but some of them are pretty... tedious&#33; For example, is there any real problme whether they called it an "ability score", if they are going to make this clear?

    Secondly, I would like to see you playing a point-buy built paladin with a true bloodline... :P

  8. #18
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    Originally posted by geeman@Feb 23 2003, 09:08 PM
    At 08:01 PM 2/23/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

    There are certainly ancillary role-playing aspects, but it`s primarily game
    mechanics here. Tainted bloodlines representing low numerical scores are
    more easily justified if using some sort of bloodline system that does not
    relate to the ability score mechanic because the ability score mechanic
    starts at 3 using dice or, worse, starts at 8 using the point buy
    method. Figuring the bloodline strength of offspring using bloodline as an
    ability score becomes very different from how it was originally
    done. Also, bloodline as an ability score makes all blooded characters
    earn RP in increments of 2, minimum 16. That`s higher than many regents
    presented in the original materials. I just pulled out RoE and turned to
    random page and on that page there was Parnien Anuvier Iniere (MA; T2; Br,
    minor, 15; LN) whose bloodline would be have to be at least 16 to equate to
    the bloodline as an ability score system.

    When it gets right down to it, losing the tainted bloodline strength
    removes several character concepts that existed in the original rules.
    I share many of your opinions as expressed here...translating the bloodline strength points into an attribute score seems to have really cut out a lot of character "configurations" that were once legal. Beyond the issue of cutting out characters with scores lower than 8 (16 in 2e) there is the issue of the abilities themselves. If I read the playtest rules correctly, no scion with a Bloodline Stat lower than 12 gets bloo abilities. That is a 24 in 2e system which is just rediculous...using the original chart even someone with a 10 or lower (a 5 in this conversion) still had a chance of having an ability.

    In my birthright campaign (in which none of the PCs are currently regents) they rolled up their bloodline scores and I think maybe 1 out of the 5 characters has a score above 24...which under these 3e rules would have meant no bloodline abilities. Admittably, rolling for bloodline score or buying it with point buy is likely to end up with all PCs having hier scores than before (solving the ability problem) but it does present the issue that there are lots of NPC that are at that level and below.

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