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Thread: 12 Duchies

  1. #11
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    On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
    > A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
    > instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?

    Someone in that line decided (quite rightly IMO) that the empire was dead
    and old titles irrelevant, so they might as well call a king a king.

    > As for Taeghas, I have always assumed that it was a single province in
    > ancient times (hence County) and expanded over the years.
    >
    > Also I think Brosengae was supposed to be one of the original 12.

    Apparently not, according to the post earlier in this thread. Since it
    contains info from the creator of the setting, I`m ok with that.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  2. #12
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    At 09:07 PM 2/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
    >On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
    >> A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
    >> instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?
    >
    >Someone in that line decided (quite rightly IMO) that the empire was dead
    >and old titles irrelevant, so they might as well call a king a king.

    Would such a character participate in the Sword and Crown? All the other
    participants accept that the Empire is not dead, in fact that is the
    premise of the whole event.

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  3. #13
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:48 PM


    > A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
    > instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?
    > I`d think the other regents of Anuire would consider it the height of
    > arrogance for her (or her ancestor) to give herself that title. Why on
    > earth would the Diem family voluntarily choose to call themselves Barons,
    > when they know it is a very low title?

    Its possible that attitudes towards titles differ on Cerilia than we might
    expect from our own history. Swordwraith`s claims might not be putting
    herself above her peers, but rather claiming no interest in any further talk
    or effort towards empire. She, unlike most, has embraced the current
    situation of small, automous states.

    As for Diemed, it like other states has seen a reduction of title based on
    loss of territory. Since the Diems only control a fraction of the duchy of
    Diemed, it may be offsensive to claim the title of duke. I have interpreted
    the counts of Cariele using that title to avoid any affront to guilder
    Mheallie Bireon.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #14
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    At 11:11 PM 2/20/2003 -0600, you wrote:
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
    >Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:48 PM
    >
    >
    >> A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
    >> instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?
    >> I`d think the other regents of Anuire would consider it the height of
    >> arrogance for her (or her ancestor) to give herself that title. Why on
    >> earth would the Diem family voluntarily choose to call themselves Barons,
    >> when they know it is a very low title?
    >
    >Its possible that attitudes towards titles differ on Cerilia than we might
    >expect from our own history. Swordwraith`s claims might not be putting
    >herself above her peers, but rather claiming no interest in any further talk
    >or effort towards empire. She, unlike most, has embraced the current
    >situation of small, automous states.

    It`s definitely possible. Since it isn`t clear, if that interpretation
    makes sense to you, it would work great for your game. I personally don`t
    see it like that, so I changed the titles. Actually I only changed Diemed`s
    title - Aerenwe is a PC, and I told him that other regents think it bizarre
    that Swordwraith called herself a queen even though Aerenwe is an Anuirean
    duchy. He got the message, so he is now Count Robert Calrie, Duke of Aerenwe.

    >As for Diemed, it like other states has seen a reduction of title based on
    >loss of territory. Since the Diems only control a fraction of the duchy of
    >Diemed, it may be offsensive to claim the title of duke. I have interpreted
    >the counts of Cariele using that title to avoid any affront to guilder
    >Mheallie Bireon.

    Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
    more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
    as he has more provinces than Boeruine.

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  5. #15
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    Lord Shade wrote:

    >At 12:46 PM 2/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
    >
    >A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
    >instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?
    >
    From the elven kingdoms. Tuarhievel for example was ruled formerly by
    Queen Tuar who gave the land it´s name. That the current rulers only use
    the title of Prince is in honour of Queen Tuar, to which they do not
    want to be call themselves equal. This is in the PS of Tuarhievel.

    Queen does not mean that she sees herself as "more than a duke" -
    although the title sounds as more for us.
    I see it as a demonstration that she broke with the empire and rules an
    independant realm, probably based partly on elven traditionis (with
    their two elven lieutenants, the Erebannien and such).

    >I`d think the other regents of Anuire would consider it the height of
    >arrogance for her (or her ancestor) to give herself that title. Why on
    >earth would the Diem family voluntarily choose to call themselves Barons,
    >when they know it is a very low title?
    >
    Because they only rule a part of what was the Duchy of Diemed. Perhaps
    the lawful Dukes who lost the provinces of Medoere and Endier and
    Caercas (to Roesone) vowed to name themselves Dukes only after restoring
    the Duchy to it´s former size as punishment for themselves?

    Or because the title reflects what you rule as described by Morg in RANK
    - TITLE:

    > http://www.bloodsilver.com/scholastic/nobility.php

    >IMC Diemed and Aerenwe both go by Duke.
    >As for Taeghas, I have always assumed that it was a single province in
    >ancient times (hence County) and expanded over the years.
    >
    The other option is that they had a rebellion and the real Duke was
    forced to flee. Cariele is a good example of this. The family of Cariele
    retains the rank of "Duke of Cariele" but rules Coeraniys. The ruler of
    Cariele can´t be Duke Gladanil of Cariele, because he is not the legal
    Duke, so he is COUNT Gladanil, Duke of Cariele (personal rank and title
    of what you rule).
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  6. #16
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    On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
    > Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
    > more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
    > as he has more provinces than Boeruine.

    Except that Archduke is as bizzare in Anuirean tradition as `King of
    Aerenwe` and `Prince of Avanil`- they`re all just Dukes, some of which
    like to inflate their own titles.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  7. #17
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:38 AM


    > Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
    > more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
    > as he has more provinces than Boeruine.

    Certainly, I think that he prefers power to prestige, however, and keeps the
    lesser title to conceal his ambition.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  8. #18
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    >>I`d think the other regents of Anuire would consider it the height of
    >>arrogance for her (or her ancestor) to give herself that title. Why on
    >>earth would the Diem family voluntarily choose to call themselves Barons,
    >>when they know it is a very low title?
    >>
    >Because they only rule a part of what was the Duchy of Diemed. Perhaps
    >the lawful Dukes who lost the provinces of Medoere and Endier and
    >Caercas (to Roesone) vowed to name themselves Dukes only after restoring
    >the Duchy to it´s former size as punishment for themselves?
    >
    >Or because the title reflects what you rule as described by Morg in RANK
    >- TITLE:
    >
    >> http://www.bloodsilver.com/scholastic/nobility.php

    Yes, I use Morg`s article in my campaign. But that still doesn`t address
    why Heirl Diem is a baron - his family`s rank should be Duke, based on the
    fact that that`s what they were in the Empire. He should go by Duke Heirl
    Diem, Duke of Diemed.

    >>IMC Diemed and Aerenwe both go by Duke.
    >>As for Taeghas, I have always assumed that it was a single province in
    >>ancient times (hence County) and expanded over the years.
    >>
    >The other option is that they had a rebellion and the real Duke was
    >forced to flee. Cariele is a good example of this. The family of Cariele
    >retains the rank of "Duke of Cariele" but rules Coeraniys. The ruler of
    >Cariele can´t be Duke Gladanil of Cariele, because he is not the legal
    >Duke, so he is COUNT Gladanil, Duke of Cariele (personal rank and title
    >of what you rule).

    Agreed.

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  9. #19
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    At 10:31 AM 2/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
    >On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
    >> Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
    >> more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
    >> as he has more provinces than Boeruine.
    >
    >Except that Archduke is as bizzare in Anuirean tradition as `King of
    >Aerenwe` and `Prince of Avanil`- they`re all just Dukes, some of which
    >like to inflate their own titles.

    I thought Archduke was a "super" title, given to the strongest dukes.
    Avanil was a principality, and its ruler was a prince (kind of like the
    Prince of Wales in Britain? meaning, the realm the crown prince rules
    before he becomes Emperor).

    In the novel Iron Throne, was Avan referred to as Archduke Avan, Duke Avan,
    or Prince Avan?

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  10. #20
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    At 12:13 PM 2/21/2003 -0600, you wrote:
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
    >Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:38 AM
    >
    >
    >> Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
    >> more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
    >> as he has more provinces than Boeruine.
    >
    >Certainly, I think that he prefers power to prestige, however, and keeps the
    >lesser title to conceal his ambition.

    Ruins of Empire, p. 36: "It remains a point of endless bitterness to him
    that all Anuire does not consider him one of the front-runners for the Iron
    Throne," in reference to Gavin Tael.

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