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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I haven't seen any discussion of the blood abilities themselves as written up. What do people think? Are they balanced in terms of minor, major and great? What should be changed as far as any individual abilities?
    Duane Eggert

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    irdeggman wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1334
    >
    > irdeggman wrote:
    > I haven`t seen any discussion of the blood abilities themselves as written up. What do people think? Are they balanced in terms of minor, major and great? What should be changed as far as any individual abilities?
    >
    A perhaps dumb question to animal affinity. Anduiras - lion. Do lions
    live in Anuire at all? On Earth they live in africas steppes - so would
    in the region most likely to have Anduiras Animal Affinity a nice number
    of animals fitting to that bloodability be found at all?

    Then the description of the totem animal: The lion is pretty specific.
    Serpent however is very general, not python, or viper, or cobra. Would
    not it be better for Anduiras have the ability work on all large cats
    (lions, tigers, puma, even wildcats and lynx) to have a sufficient
    number of animals to use the ability on in every region of Aebrynnis? If
    going strictly with lion only Khinasi might enjoy the benefit of talking
    with a lion, or not?

    Bloodmark: I find it good that this ability has got a real bonus (+1 to
    CHA skills). The 2E "characters will react accordingly..." was very
    vague and often ignored by other players as most roleplaying advantages
    which are not hardwired in rules.
    What has become of the sentence that Bloodmark is the minor version of
    Divine Aura, I think it was in Dooms 3E manual?


    Courage: The change in the great ability from "all units in the same
    battlefield square" to now one units weakens the ability.
    That now only 1 unit can be in 1 square should either be done away with
    - or the great ability work on all friendly units in the square of the
    scion and all surrounding squares.

    A word about the 1 unit/1 square rule: The battlefield is with it´s 3X5
    still as small as the 2E version. Large Battles e.g. between the main
    armies of Boeruine and Avanil with only 1 unit/square could resemble a
    minor skirmish with most of the army sitting idle in the reserve.

    In addition the main advantage of Pikemen is to counter Cavalry.
    However Cavalry would not be wise to attack Pikeman and instead pick on
    other units (e.g. Archers or Infantery). A sound strategy would involve
    Archers firing on the advancing enemy and if in danger of being overrun
    by a charge, retreating behind a hedge of Pikes. This is not possible,
    as the Pikes can´t anymore be in teh same square as the Archers and the
    Archers can´t shoot over the Pikes. To have this strategy work, either
    the old 2E rule of stacking (Archers will be defended by the Pikemen in
    the same square as the defender chooses which unit engages with the
    attacker) or a new rule of Archers shoot one area farther ( which also
    has to have a larger battlefield) so that they can be positioned behind
    a Pike unit.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  3. #3
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    On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
    > A perhaps dumb question to animal affinity. Anduiras - lion. Do lions
    > live in Anuire at all? On Earth they live in africas steppes - so would
    > in the region most likely to have Anduiras Animal Affinity a nice number
    > of animals fitting to that bloodability be found at all?

    There are no lions in England or France, but Richard Coeur de Leon had his
    nickname nonetheless. I imagine they had some in Aduria, and we know they
    exist in Khinasi lands.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  4. #4
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    irdeggman wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1334
    >
    > irdeggman wrote:
    > I haven`t seen any discussion of the blood abilities themselves as written up. What do people think? Are they balanced in terms of minor, major and great? What should be changed as far as any individual abilities?
    >
    Elemental Control: A great ability only to summon a SMALL elemental once
    per week? (summon Monster III) but changed the spell (Gust of Wind -->
    Control Wind 5th level). Why not keep the old 3rd level spell Gust of
    Wind as in the 2E version and instead use Monster Summon IV to at least
    summon a medium Air Elemental for Anduiras scions?

    And Masela: Water Walk has been kept like in 2E, a now 3rd level spell -
    how is that balanced to the 5th level spell of Anduiras?
    Would not better all have 3rd level spells/day and a medium elemental/week?

    Same for Basaia, only a 3rd level spell . Reduce Anduiras also to a 3rd
    level spell again.

    A medium elemental would not be too overpowering, as they start with
    damage reduction at Large Size, the medium has still none.


    Long Live: A PC who has Long Life really has nothing - which game lasts
    so much turns that it really is an advantage to outlive the other PC´s?
    In the Book of Magecraft Highmage Aelies is described as patiently
    building his source holdings while the human wizards around are
    reckless. This is only a roleplaying advantage, but a new character with
    Long Life has no advantage to use that I see which makes itself clearly
    visible during the course of a normal game. Certainly the Gorgon has
    taken advantage of his Long Life, becoming a nearly unbeatable character
    in the course of his 1000 years, and Rhuobhe likewise. But if the
    character starts with a normal human with other human players, then he
    has nothing to show for this ability. Even IF the game lasts so long
    that the PC with longlife can outlive the other characters - then they
    will have used Investitture to designate a heir and he still have no
    real advantage.

    Suggestion: Add that the scion while gaining the advantages of age as
    his lived (been on earth) age raises (+INT + WIS) he does not suffer
    from the disadvantage (-DEX, - STR, - CON) as long as his aged age does
    not go beyond the borderlines of age as well. e.g. a human who gained
    Long Life major with the age of 20: After having lived 50 years he
    normally would have gained and suffered the middle age and old modifiers
    and venerable - with Long Life major he has gained the advantages, as he
    really has lived 50 years, but he aged only 2 so does suffer no penaltys.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  5. #5
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    daniel mcsorley wrote:

    >On Wed, 12 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
    >
    >>A perhaps dumb question to animal affinity. Anduiras - lion. Do lions
    >>live in Anuire at all? On Earth they live in africas steppes - so would
    >>in the region most likely to have Anduiras Animal Affinity a nice number
    >>of animals fitting to that bloodability be found at all?
    >>
    >
    >There are no lions in England or France, but Richard Coeur de Leon had his
    >nickname nonetheless. I imagine they had some in Aduria, and we know they
    >exist in Khinasi lands.
    >
    Would then essentially the whole GREAT bloodability to talk to lions be
    useless crap in Anurie if that is like England/France?
    Which Anuirean scion with the Animal Affiinity Great ability would
    travel to the Khinasi steppes or Adurian wastes to talk to a lion? I
    suggest to broaden it to all great cats so that every region in Anuire
    will have some animals to talk to.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  6. #6
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    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

    > A perhaps dumb question to animal affinity. Anduiras - lion. Do lions
    > live in Anuire at all? On Earth they live in africas steppes - so would
    > in the region most likely to have Anduiras Animal Affinity a nice number
    > of animals fitting to that bloodability be found at all?
    >

    Mountain lions lived in Turkey until quite recently, and in most of southern
    Europe in antiquity. Legend has it that they were all killed in roman
    gladiatorial games - though I`m not sure I beleive that.


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  7. #7
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Elemental control: To give them this ability I would change that to a minor ability. Summon monster III? Sweet...

    My idea: Make it a minor ability (Summon monster III), a major ability (Summon monster V) and a great ability (Summon monster VII) once per week. (The gust of wind etc. ability part I would give at great version)...

    Invulnerability, Regeneration: Why extra requirements? When rolling it, it will be not this often and if you may choose it (and you want it), everybody would take bloodtrait first...

    Bloodmark, Protection from evil, Animal affinity: Good descriptions...

    Battlewise: Useless as ever, but good description...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    There were a handful of blood abilites that upon discussion were determined to be well above the normal level of great abillities; Divine Wrath, Invulnerability, Regeneration and Major Regeneration. These would be "must haves" and could easily make a campaign unbalanced if they were generally available, even with a random roll. That is why the prerequisites were placed on them. Blood form will cause the transformation to an awnsheghlien to happen quicker if one of these abilities is "used". Yeah, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what is meant by when they are used - but that is going to be pretty much up to the DM to "control" and "design" the transformation process anyway.

    No matter how you cut it not all blood abilities of the same level are equal, just like not all feats are equal. We tried to balance them as best we could with this respect.

    I think that I'd favor upping the elemental control to Monster Summoning V. This was an ability that has been discussed frequently on the boards as one of the reasons that the "old" system was not balanced, a scion with this ability could easily dominate any encounter. Do the the other granted spells, even though not of the same spell level really not end up being balanced (more or less) with each other? I mean just because a spell is not the same level doesn't mean that it is that much more powerful, Some are more frequently of use than others. Making this a minor, major and great ability would cause even more game imbalancing type problems.

    The reason that lions were part of the animal affinity blood ability was for the aspects associated with a lion. It is important to keep this in mind instead of always thinking of in game mechanics. Yes this is a role playing type aspect, but all things related to totem animals in any setting are. It is an important aspect of defining character. It might be worthhile to allow communication with other great cats but the aspect must remain the lion. The great ability to wild shape would only be to a lion and not some other great cat. Yes serpents are much broader than others, but they are much more minor creatures than a lion in the MM. These aren't great creatures of this type but the standard versions.

    Good point with the long life ability and gaining age enhancements. This is worth a longer look indeed.

    Keep up the comments there is a lot of information in this chapter and it is an esssential part of Birthright.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #9
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    irdeggman wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1334
    >
    > irdeggman wrote:
    > There were a handful of blood abilites that upon discussion were determined to be well above the normal level of great abillities; Divine Wrath, Invulnerability, Regeneration and Major Regeneration. These would be "must haves" and could easily make a campaign unbalanced if they were generally available, even with a random roll.
    >
    Why?
    Divine Wrath is usable not by the will of the scion, but only if a set
    condition is met of the DM. Michael Roele is mentioned to have used his
    only 3 times in Iron Throne novel (first time when fighting gnolls who
    already killed some of "his" men, fighting in the Shadow World when the
    undead horrors where severely hurting his whole army, and the third time
    as he died against the Gorgon). In a campaign concentrating on politics
    and the domain level it is utterly useless.

    This is a reason to make this ability usable on a broader basis, e.g. by
    having it make Intimidate a class skill as well.


    Invulnerabilty is even worse - you have to be defeated and "killed"
    before it will benefit you!
    This ability is however different than the 2E version in that it makes
    you immune to polymorph as well - why?
    I see this ability more like a "I´ll be back!" ability. Equally how
    often you are defeated and even killed you come back - after a time. To
    make the scion immune to death magic and immune to polymorph is too much
    IMO - e.g. against "Slay living" it should only mean that you always
    make a successful save - but not that you take no damage at all. Against
    spells without alternative to simply die, the scion should still be
    affected like from Slay living - perhaps paralyzed for a few rounds,
    take a few points of damage instead of dying or such...

    Regeneration and Major Regenration: Aren´t these abilites weaken than
    the Regenration of the Troll from the MM as they are much slower?

    However again: All of these abilities benefit only a character who takes
    damage in a fight. Domain-Level action seldom does that and most PBEMS
    concentrate on the domain level.

    > That is why the prerequisites were placed on them. Blood form will cause the transformation to an awnsheghlien to happen quicker if one of these abilities is "used". Yeah, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what is meant by when they are used - but that is going to be pretty much up to the DM to "control" and "design" the transformation process anyway.
    >No matter how you cut it not all blood abilities of the same level are equal, just like not all feats are equal. We tried to balance them as best we could with this respect.
    >I think that I`d favor upping the elemental control to Monster Summoning V.
    >
    I agree. This would give a medium elemental who still has no damage
    reduction. Not overbalancing. Perhaps make it also more versatile:
    Simply say that the scion can use the Summon Monster V spell - not to
    summon only 1 elemental, but either a medium elemental or as the spell
    describes 2 small elementals. In addition, shouldn´t the scion be able
    to speak Auran to talk with the elemental or give orders?

    However I would balance this by having the scion suffer the penalty of
    being such close to an element - e.g. the Tome&Blood has the "Elemental
    Savant" Prestige Class - this class works closely with one element but
    suffers from others: e.g for Air /Anduireas this could mean to be
    hedged out by a magic circle agianst air, taking double damage from
    Acid/Earth.... And this in all weeks in which the scion actually has
    used his ability.

    >The reason that lions were part of the animal affinity blood ability was for the aspects associated with a lion.
    >
    Courage, Strenght?

    > It is important to keep this in mind instead of always thinking of in game mechanics. Yes this is a role playing type aspect, but all things related to totem animals in any setting are. It is an important aspect of defining character. It might be worthhile to allow communication with other great cats but the aspect must remain the lion. The great ability to wild shape would only be to a lion and not some other great cat.
    >
    > Yes serpents are much broader than others, but they are much more minor creatures than a lion in the MM. These aren`t great creatures of this type but the standard versions.
    >
    The MM has serpents as vipers and constrictors form tiny to Huge size,
    what do you mean that they are minor creatures?

    >Good point with the long life ability and gaining age enhancements. This is worth a longer look indeed.
    >
    :-)

    bye
    Michael Romes

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  10. #10
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The reason invulnerability was written to include immunity to polymorph effects was that by using polymorph the invulnerabilty could be bypassed. We didn't want a polymorphed scion with invulnerability to "pick up" a weakness that could be fatal due to the polymorphing. The scion has only the "set" conditions that can kill him and no other ones. This addition may cause more confusion than it was worth though.
    Duane Eggert

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