Results 1 to 8 of 8
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    883
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Do I understand it right, that all military units are now "generic"?
    In the sense that everyone can, with training, produce units with combat
    statistics exactly like those of other races or nations? So that while dwarf
    units have toughness even as green units, it counts against their maximum
    number of trainings and as veterans they could be identical (excepting their
    magical resistance bonus) to an Anuirean veteran unit?

    Or are the racial trainings (elven-scout, dwarven-toughness) in addition to
    the limited number of training due to experience a unit can have? So that
    elves and dwarfs always would have one training more than human units at
    every level of experience?


    Marine Training: "seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore" combat.
    Is somewhere explained what that means?
    e.g. only Marines can fight on ships, all others are simply cargo?
    only Marines can attack a coastal province from a ship, all others are at a
    penalty if trying to invade from a ship or something like that?


    p. 129 Naval Battle:
    When ships are fighting I understand that they use their own combat
    statistics, but when they carry troops, it becomes unclear:

    e.g. 2 Galleons with 3 troops each
    "These army units can make additional attacks to represent boarding actons."
    Do I understand that right, that we have not 6 (number of units on board)
    but 8 units fighting which all can attack every other unit?

    Could the 3 units from Galleon 1 attack Galleon 2 under the feet of the
    other 3 units? Or have boarding units to be defeated before the vessel can
    be attacked at all in a melee as in "if the defending vessel has no military
    unit then the boarding unit my attack the vessel itself" And the ships
    themselves - can they attack also only the crew in a melee or the other ship
    while the crew is still fighting?

    Do missile troops add to the missile rating of ships, or is the ship missile
    rating more heavy (ballista, catapult) so that archers can´t add to that?


    "army units on the vessel may attempt to board the enemy vessel" - attempt
    meaning that they can fail? Is there a check to board, e.g. an empty vessel
    like that for entering a fortress?

    "A staggered Warship with an army aboard surrenders and is taken prize" - an
    army aboard is an hostile army to that ship that before boarded that ship,
    right? Or can enemy ships taken prize who still have an army unit on them?


    p. 112 Damage:
    Subdual damage: If a unit´s subdual damage exceeds its current hits, the
    unit is destroyed.

    Subdual damage is non-lethal according to the PHB. If a character is dealt
    subdual damage exceeding his hit points he falls to the floor unconscious
    and is helpless. Why should an army unit be destroyed/killed by experiencing
    the same?

    As I read the Damage section, in a battle, e.g. a noble knight unit will not
    slay their enemy who is honour bound to fight against all odds, but tries to
    subdue them. Shall they only succeed to take them captive if they first
    stagger them with subdual attacks and then hope for them to fail a morale
    roll? Or can they keep dealing subdual attacks, beating them to the ground
    until they all are unconscious and helpless to be tied up and taken prisoner?
    bye
    Michael Romes

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Fairborn Ohio, USA
    Posts
    108
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    I'm not completely sure what you mean by generic, but any race can certainly mix and match your culture to produce units experience, armor, and special training. So if you want Rjurik archers with heavy armor and beserk you can do just that; I have no idea why you'd want to do that but you could.

    Subdual damage is considered non-leathal according to the books, but in this case, non-heroed peasants, farmers, and even trained soliders are not being afforded the same luxury. There's to many deaths, to many men fleeing from the field, and to many unleveled men who are parrishing from the trials of combat.

    "Seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore" combat is defnied in the special notation under its description. A +2 at sea is a pretty nice.

    (Note to my RP group: We need to test the new sea rules one night.)

    If there are 2 navies and each has 1 ship and 3 units, that indeed is 8 attacks in a single resolution. After the 1st round the 3 units from ship A will be engaged with all units from ship B. There's no where to go on a boat but the bottom of the sea/river/ocean.

    Any archer unit on a boat does not add to a ship's missile rating.

    Mike Spehar

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    626
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 03:17:50AM -0800, Michael Romes wrote:
    > Do I understand it right, that all military units are now "generic"?
    > In the sense that everyone can, with training, produce units with combat
    > statistics exactly like those of other races or nations? So that while dwarf
    > units have toughness even as green units, it counts against their maximum
    > number of trainings and as veterans they could be identical (excepting their
    > magical resistance bonus) to an Anuirean veteran unit?

    Perhaps in the same way that "characters" are generic. You could
    _build_ a light armor wearing unit of anuirean infantry... but it
    wouldn`t really be appropriate. As a GM, I`d probably disallow any
    significant deviation from the "standard cultural units" without a good
    rational or special training.

    > Marine Training: "seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore" combat.
    > Is somewhere explained what that means?

    At the end of that same entry. "+2 to melee and defense at sea; move
    freely through swamp terrain".

    > e.g. only Marines can fight on ships, all others are simply cargo?

    Any non-mounted unit can fight on ships, but units with the marine
    training special get a BONUS at sea.

    > only Marines can attack a coastal province from a ship, all others are at a
    > penalty if trying to invade from a ship or something like that?

    Other units would not gain the "move freely though swamp terrain" bonus.
    A coastal assault would probably occur in "swampy" conditions which might
    be detrimental to some units. (See the swamp terrain).

    > p. 129 Naval Battle:
    > When ships are fighting I understand that they use their own combat
    > statistics, but when they carry troops, it becomes unclear:
    >
    > e.g. 2 Galleons with 3 troops each
    > "These army units can make additional attacks to represent boarding actons."
    > Do I understand that right, that we have not 6 (number of units on board)
    > but 8 units fighting which all can attack every other unit?


    The ships attack each other (one attack each), the units attack each other (one
    attack per unit). If one side`s units are destroyed, then the units can attack
    the ship. "Boarding" to capture would be a "subdual" attack.

    > Do missile troops add to the missile rating of ships, or is the ship missile
    > rating more heavy (ballista, catapult) so that archers can´t add to that?

    Hmm. I don`t think that we covered that. I`m thinking that missile
    troops can`t fire at naval ranges, or do "significant" damage to a ship
    at range, but they can use their missle attack in the first round of
    combat of a ship-to-ship engagement against troops.

    > "army units on the vessel may attempt to board the enemy vessel" - attempt
    > meaning that they can fail? Is there a check to board, e.g. an empty vessel
    > like that for entering a fortress?

    Two vessels with army units abord do not _have_ to fight. If either side _wants_
    to fight, however, then they do so.

    > "A staggered Warship with an army aboard surrenders and is taken prize" - an
    > army aboard is an hostile army to that ship that before boarded that ship,
    > right? Or can enemy ships taken prize who still have an army unit on them?

    The intent was that should read "an unopposed hostile army aboard".

    > p. 112 Damage:
    > Subdual damage: If a unit´s subdual damage exceeds its current hits, the
    > unit is destroyed.
    >
    > Subdual damage is non-lethal according to the PHB. If a character is dealt
    > subdual damage exceeding his hit points he falls to the floor unconscious
    > and is helpless. Why should an army unit be destroyed/killed by experiencing
    > the same?
    > As I read the Damage section, in a battle, e.g. a noble knight unit will not
    > slay their enemy who is honour bound to fight against all odds, but tries to
    > subdue them. Shall they only succeed to take them captive if they first
    > stagger them with subdual attacks and then hope for them to fail a morale
    > roll? Or can they keep dealing subdual attacks, beating them to the ground
    > until they all are unconscious and helpless to be tied up and taken prisoner?

    There is definately a "revision-based" error in that text. Delete the line
    "If a unit`s subdual damage exceeds its current htits the unit is destroyed"
    on page 112. The preceeding sentence notes (correctly) that if the subdual
    damage meets or exceeds the remaining hits that the unit is staggered.

    The unit doesn`t become "helpless" unless it also fails a morale check. It
    can`t attack, but it can attempt to flee unless morale breaks.

    - Doom

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    883
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Dr. Travis Doom wrote:

    >On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 03:17:50AM -0800, Michael Romes wrote:
    >
    >Perhaps in the same way that "characters" are generic. You could
    >_build_ a light armor wearing unit of anuirean infantry... but it
    >wouldn`t really be appropriate. As a GM, I`d probably disallow any
    >significant deviation from the "standard cultural units" without a good
    >rational or special training.
    >
    My question is still only partly answered. e.g. Orogs always take
    toughness training is writtten.
    Can an Anuierean unit who also take toughness training ever have the
    exact same statistics as an orog unit of the same type, or is the
    toughness of the Orog a racial advantage which is in addition to the
    "trained trainings"?

    If the Orogs toughness counts against the limited number of trainings
    (or the elven scout, or the dwarven advanse defense) then
    do I understand it right, that:
    - green units who may not have special training are exactly equal - be
    they elf or dwar of human as all may not have any trainings? Or is the
    Orog toughness a racial advantage which they have even at green level
    where humans have nothing?
    - and as they gain experience and take special trainings/ or are
    mustered as more experienced units, they could stay exact copies of each
    other, as the all have the same limited number of special trainings? Or
    is the racial training in addition?

    >>Marine Training: "seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore" combat.
    >>Is somewhere explained what that means?
    >>
    >At the end of that same entry. "+2 to melee and defense at sea; move
    > freely through swamp terrain".
    >
    Ooops. Overread that.

    >>only Marines can attack a coastal province from a ship, all others are at a
    >>penalty if trying to invade from a ship or something like that?
    >>
    >Other units would not gain the "move freely though swamp terrain" bonus.
    > A coastal assault would probably occur in "swampy" conditions which might
    > be detrimental to some units. (See the swamp terrain).
    >
    "Marine units are seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore combat" So
    that only means on land they move freely in bog.
    Is this really relevant, unless Marines land in Spirtsend where most of
    the province is swamp? To actually fight in a bog at the swamp their
    leader would have to win an opposed warcraft check, as the province
    defender likely won´t like to fight in swamp, right?

    So no "Help, surprise the Viking raiders are coming and they have a +2
    bonus as they appeared suddenly with their ships without pre-warning?"
    (raiding of Paris through the Vikings-like)
    bye
    Michael Romes

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    BR mailing list
    Posts
    1,562
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
    >
    > So no "Help, surprise the Viking raiders are coming and they have a +2
    > bonus as they appeared suddenly with their ships without pre-warning?"
    > (raiding of Paris through the Vikings-like)
    > bye
    > Michael Romes
    >

    The problem here is the lack of operational surprise rules. Even within a
    single province,there is very much room, and a sudden naval landing is
    likely to be unopposed for a few days. For large armies and their supplies,
    there is nothing like naval operations if you want tactical surprise.

    /Carl


    __________________________________________________ ___
    Gratis e-mail resten av livet på www.yahoo.se/mail
    Busenkelt!

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    626
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 10:47:08PM +0100, Michael Romes wrote:
    > My question is still only partly answered. e.g. Orogs always take
    > toughness training is writtten.
    > Can an Anuierean unit who also take toughness training ever have the
    > exact same statistics as an orog unit of the same type, or is the
    > toughness of the Orog a racial advantage which is in addition to the
    > "trained trainings"?

    All units with the same training have exactly the same cost/advantages.
    Some racial types _always_ take certain advantages (if if their "experience"
    would otherwise disallow such training) to represent certain racial
    sterotypes. However, an Anuirean HvInf+ with Toughness would be exactly
    equivalent to an Orog HvInf+ with Toughness on the battle-level. The units
    would have different numbers of individuals, etc, but their cost/utility
    is the same. The fundemental goal here was not to provide any inherent
    advantages/disadvantages to any race in warfare: you get what you pay for.

    > "Marine units are seasoned in ship-to-ship and ship-to-shore combat" So
    > that only means on land they move freely in bog.

    If a battle took place on a coastline, the DM might consider it "Swamp
    terrain". If not, then the marines would have no advantage. Perhaps
    this should be reworded to drop the ship-to-shore combat to prevent
    confustion.

    > To actually fight in a bog at the swamp their
    > leader would have to win an opposed warcraft check, as the province
    > defender likely won´t like to fight in swamp, right?

    Correct. A general with marines would attempt to arrange the battle in
    the swamp, whereas a general without might attempt to arrange the battle
    on dry land.

    > So no "Help, surprise the Viking raiders are coming and they have a +2
    > bonus as they appeared suddenly with their ships without pre-warning?"

    Right. (Although a "Shock Troop" special might not be a bad idea).

    - Doom

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  7. #7
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    near Frankfurt/ Germany
    Posts
    801
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

    p. 112 Damage:
    Subdual damage: If a unit´s subdual damage exceeds its current hits, the unit is destroyed.

    Subdual damage is non-lethal according to the PHB. If a character is dealt subdual damage exceeding his hit points he falls to the floor unconscious and is helpless. Why should an army unit be destroyed/killed by experiencing the same?
    IMO Units with dealt subdual damage should get a "virtual hit". This would mean a hit in game purposes, but to the soldiers not lethal. So a with subdual damage destroyed unit should be "virtually destroyed" (Something like knocked out, but not dead)...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 7:52 AM


    > p. 112 Damage:
    > Subdual damage: If a unit´s subdual damage exceeds its current hits,
    > the unit is destroyed.
    >
    > IMO Units with dealt subdual damage should get a "virtual hit". This
    > would mean a hit in game purposes, but to the soldiers not lethal. So
    > a with subdual damage destroyed unit should be "virtually
    > destroyed" (Something like knocked out, but not dead)...

    I`ve always interpreted a destroyed unit as being what you describe as
    "virtually destroyed". Actually killing every last man of a unit is pretty
    hard. Normally units break and become worthless as combat forces long
    before everyone gets killed. Units need to find themselves ganged up on
    without possibility of retreat before they face actual destruction.

    After a battle I take all the destroyed units and a I make morale checks.
    Those that rally, reform in the rear area and eventually link up with the
    army again. Those that fail, break apart and the survivors desert. A
    leader who makes sure none of his units get isolated and cut off, and who
    puts a powerful leader to rally units that break in the rear (clerics are
    especially good at this) can generally hold his army together even in defeat
    and fight again another day.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.