3e feats

[Birthright-L]

Bleh, feat mechanic checking. Most of these look good and I want to get
on to the good stuff, domain rules etc. The only ones that jump out at me
are the Regional Arms feats. They`re essentially 4 or 5 feats for the
price of one, especially since they count as Weapon Focus, so they fill
the prereq for Specialization. The prereq for the first one isn`t enough,
by the way, it`s the same as saying `1 level of fighter, ranger, or
paladin, or warrior`. Not much of a prereq at all, that is.

I can see the thought process behind them, but they`re very overpowered.
I think the way to go with this would be to make them not stack with
Weapon Focus, but not be Weapon Focuses. Because the way they are now,
there`s no reason anyone would take Weapon focus when he can get three of
them plus a couple of armor bonuses for the same price.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, daniel mcsorley wrote:
> The only ones that jump out at me are the Regional Arms feats.
> They`re essentially 4 or 5 feats for the price of one, especially
> since they count as Weapon Focus, so they fill the prereq for
> Specialization. The prereq for the first one isn`t enough, by the
> way, it`s the same as saying `1 level of fighter, ranger, or paladin,
> or warrior`. Not much of a prereq at all, that is.
>
> I can see the thought process behind them, but they`re very overpowered.
> I think the way to go with this would be to make them not stack with
> Weapon Focus, but not be Weapon Focuses. Because the way they are now,
> there`s no reason anyone would take Weapon focus when he can get three of
> them plus a couple of armor bonuses for the same price.

I`ve thought more about these `Regional Arms` feats. They say "you have
been trained in the common arms and armor of the standard warrior of a
cultural region". This is exactly what proficiency is. These feats are
the same as a couple of proficiencies and some armor proficiency. In
other words, "training the common arms and armor of a warrior" is the same
as taking a level of warrior or fighter.

These feats should be discarded, or reworked to make them useful for
fighting commoners- a militia member say. Martial Weapon Proficiency as
it stands is pretty weak, since you either take the feat and get
proficiency in 1 weapon, or take a level of fighter and get proficiency in
all of them + all armors. These could make a nice middle ground. If they
were made a grouping of cultural weapon proficiencies, I think they would
perform the function they should, representing organized military training
for the martially unskilled, but not blow by the Martial Weapon feat,
which allows characters to pick any 1 weapon.

So a commoner who hits level 3 might take the first one if he`s been in
the levy a couple of times and expects to be so in the future.
--
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Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Gavin Cetaine]

First, a rules note. WotC has stated that except in specialized cases, a level of a class should never be used as a prerequisite for a feat. The +1 BAB is used quite often in the PHB simply to make some weapon empowering feats (Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, etc) unavailable at first level to classes that don't fall into the traditional "Warior" arch-type.

Second, why should it be limited to just fighter types? Wouldn't you think that a priest of Haelyn would find this appealing? What about true Noble's? Warriors? Now, I grant that the traditional mage and rogue types might not find these feats useful (at least without taking the necessary weapon and armor feats). The idea of 3rd ed DnD is to make things a little more versatile, without losing the flavor of previous editions. You won't often find the mage who casts a bunch of 'prep' spells then jumps into his full plate to go into battle, but the possibility is there.

Third, the feat should probably read "You have recieved extensive training..." These feats each count as three virtual weapon focuses and provide a slight easing of the armor check penalties associated with an armor. It doesn't give proficiency with any of the items to which it gives bonuses, it actually requires it. Very powerful. Very wanted. Very useful. MOST local fighting types will also have it, meaning it's getting used against you all the time as well. You don't have to let it be available as a fighter bonus feat if you don't want it to be one, making each one cost a precious standard feat.

Finally, please note that the feat states that is does not stack with weapon focus.

[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Gavin Cetaine wrote:
> First, a rules note. WotC has stated that except in specialized
> cases, a level of a class should never be used as a prerequisite for a
> feat.

I`m the only one that has posted in this thread so far, and I didn`t
suggest that the Regional Arms feats have a class prereq, so I`m not sure
what you`re replying to.

> Third, the feat should probably read "You have recieved extensive
> training..." These feats each count as three virtual weapon focuses
> and provide a slight easing of the armor check penalties associated
> with an armor. It doesn`t give proficiency with any of the items to
> which it gives bonuses, it actually requires it. Very powerful.
> Very wanted. Very useful. MOST local fighting types will also have
> it, meaning it`s getting used against you all the time as well.
>
> Finally, please note that the feat states that is does not stack with
> weapon focus.

It doesn`t have to; as it stands, it IS weapon focus. You`re getting
three weapon foci for the price of one, plus an armor feat or two (there
is a feat which eases the armor check penalty for a single type of armor
by one point).

You say "very powerful, very wanted, very useful, most local fighting
types will have it." If it`s so powerful that everyone would want it,
it`s too powerful.

Making it a `martial weapon group proficiency` type thing would be a good
feat. Slightly better than Martial Weapon Proficiency, but a limited
choice, so I think it balances. There could be a feat further up the
chain which gives the focus benefit; the armor bonus is still too strong.

So maybe,

Regional Arms Proficiency [General]
Prereq: BAB +1.
Benefit: You are proficient with the common arms of your region, per
table 1-1, and make attack rolls with those weapons normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon without being proficient suffers a
-4 penalty on attack rolls.

Regional Elite Arms Proficiency [General]
Prerequisite: Regional Arms Proficiency, BAB +3.
(As above, but for the elite weapons).

Regional Arms Focus [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Regional Arms Proficiency, BAB +4.
Benefit: You add +1 to attack rolls with your common regional weapons.

Regional Elite Arms Focus [General, Fighter]
Prereq: Regional Arms Focus, Regional Elite Arms Proficiency, BAB +6.
Benefit: You add +1 to attack rolls with the elite weapons of your region.


Yech, now I`m digging into this feat chapter, what`s the deal with all
these have skill rank prerequisites? Bleh.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Gavin Cetaine]

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
I`m the only one that has posted in this thread so far, and I didn`t
suggest that the Regional Arms feats have a class prereq, so I`m not sure
what you`re replying to.

I don't know about you, but I found this under conversion playtest notes at BRnet.com and Birthright-L was the only poster.

[DanMcSorley]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Gavin Cetaine wrote:
> I don`t know about you, but I found this under conversion playtest
> notes at BRnet.com and Birthright-L was the only poster.

You know that `birthright-l` is an alias, right? Arjan rigged it up so
the birthright email list (aka Birthright-L@oracle.wizards.com) crossposts
to the board, and the board messages go to the list. There are probably
a couple of dozen people who post regularly or occasionally from the list.

Compare the sigs- I`m the one that posted the first couple of messages :)
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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