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  1. #31
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Something to consider before using the flat assumption that roleplaying penalties shouldn't be used to balance a races benefits is the domain system in Birthright. When a character is a regent the roleplaying disadvantages/advantages of racial interactions really comes into play. Alliances are extremely important as is the ability to establish guilds in foreign lands. Just a thought.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #32
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Re: gnomes in Birthright. I had thought that it was more widely believed that the reference to gnomes on the monster table in the 2nd BRRB was an editorial. Easily explained this was as the quality of all of the BR line was rather poor editing wise and the fact that gnomes are not mentioned anywhere else. They are not mentioned in the languages section, nor in any other Birthright document ever published.

    Having said that, the BRRB only addresses Cerilia and not the other continents, so gnomes could quite possibly exist elsewhere on the planet - but the core rules should only address the "known" world in detail. The d20 Atlas would be the place to insert "new" races found in other locales (e.g., Aduria).

    I have personally always liked gnomes, but the 2 D&D games I was playing (Dark Sun and Birthright) did not have them - very frustrating.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #33
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    Originally posted by DanMcSorley
    Interesting. So if we do go with feats for the elve's nature walk, the dwarves carrying, and the halfling's shadow sense, it looks like they're all pretty solidly in normal territory. Assuming your numbers are valid :)
    A big assumption indeed, but that's why their are others out their to provide correction when I go wrong ;-)

    Take Care,
    Joseph Miller

  4. #34
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    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
    Not really; most of the time, being an outsider is a significant advantage. Outsiders are immune to things that specifically affect humanoids, like charm person, hold person, and such. In most cases, tieflings and aasimar are also "native" outsiders, which means they're not subject to being banished and dismissed and the like. 3.5e adds the "extraplanar" subtype which will deal more clearly with that issue; i.e. you'll have regular outsiders (aasimars and tieflings) and extraplanar outsiders (pit fiends and balors).
    Good points on the charm person, etc... like I said earlier I forget things and that's why you guys are here... to remind me of what I've forgotten...

    As for the "native" outsiders designation I have yet to see (or find) it spelled out in the SRD (do you have a location for the designation?)... but in fact I took that into account because I've heard so many people using the term and reading those spells they do state "extraplanar" creatures... which from my personal reading of the planetouched is not what they are...

    The following is the main reason for the penalty:

    Outsiders cannot be raised or resurrected only a wish/miracle spell can bring them back. (this is a great weakness in and of itself... at least to me).

    Now that being said the other benefits that you mentioned *probably* equal out the above... so that would increase the Aasimar to 47 and Tiefling to 44...

    The question now is did I actually over weight any of the other abilities of the aasimar or tieflings...

    Looking them over I suppose I might have made the resistances count for too much... perhaps they would be better as Moderate [restrictive]... which would lower their scores back down to 41 and 38... an overall increase in their totals by +1... Does this sound right or do you believe that resistance 5 is a powerful ability?

    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
    If you do not consider this a disadvantage, and weigh it at 0, aasimars end up at 47 in your tally, the same as gnolls. So, clearly, aasimars have much better racial abilities than gnolls do; the main reason for giving gnolls and lizardfolk ECLs boils back to their hit dice. Their ability adjustments, and the lizardfolk's natural armor bonus in particular is troubling as well, though. You could put it like this: The value of each monster hit dice is generally worse than that of each character level (i.e. fewer skill points, fewer feats, fewer specials, etc) - the difference for monsters like gnolls and lizardfolk is their secondary advantages. Without the extra hit dice, gnolls and lizardfolk would probably still warrant an ECL; +5 natural armor is HUGE, especially for a low-level character; +4 Str and +2 Con is also huge. In fact, I find +5 natural armor pretty troubling for a low-level character; you can easily get ACs past the mid-20s for a low-level lizardfolk fighter. Lizardfolks, on the balance, seems to be a better choice than gnolls in any case.

    I'm still inherently skeptical to trying to be too precise in tallying up racial benefits in a numercial formula; or, rather, being precise, but not precise enough, which would be extremely difficult. It's still a good breakdown, and I'm going to examine it closely, along with the BR races.
    That's really all I can ask is that you examine what this system *seems* to show... but I would like to say that if I did overweigh the elemental resistances than the elves, dwarves, and halflings would still be pushing toward the power level of the planetouched... and even if the elemental resistances are dead on the elves are not that far away from ECL +1

    Thanks,
    Joseph

  5. #35
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    On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Green Knight wrote:

    > I have yet to see anyone picking an elf to play in any BR campaign of
    > mine. They are just too weird and alien, and players don`t like the
    > idea of not being able to interact properly with the rest of the world.

    I don`t ever have humans and elves cooperating. A BR adventure campaign
    IMO should contain either only elves and half-elves, or no elves, but not
    a mixture.

    In a "to each his throne" campaign, though, the whole "party" is
    *supposed* to go for each other`s throats, so mixing is fine. =)


    Ryan Caveney

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  6. #36
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    Bringing this back on topic... what do people think of the "alternate" Human Cultural Traits I listed... do you think they capture the feel of the Birthright human cultures? Are they more or less desireable than those currently listed in the BRCS-playtest version? Any other comments?

    Thanks,
    Joseph Miller

  7. #37
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    On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, irdeggman wrote:
    > Something to consider before using the flat assumption that
    > roleplaying penalties shouldn`t be used to balance a races benefits
    > is the domain system in Birthright. When a character is a regent the
    > roleplaying disadvantages/advantages of racial interactions really
    > comes into play. Alliances are extremely important as is the ability
    > to establish guilds in foreign lands. Just a thought.

    An interesting thought. Still no. If the demihumans got charisma skill
    check penalties and penalties to domain actions involving other species,
    that might be worth thinking about, but the above suggestion is still
    `balance mechanical advantages with roleplaying penalties.`

    And I think such a system is going to prove to be a monster to create. It
    would be better to just give the elves, dwarves, and halflings an ECL +1,
    or else featify a couple of their abilities.

    I don`t think we have to tone them down completely to being standard
    critters. But right now they`re over the top.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  8. #38
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    On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, jaldaen wrote:
    > Bringing this back on topic... what do people think of the
    > "alternate" Human Cultural Traits I listed... do you think they
    > capture the feel of the Birthright human cultures? Are they more or
    > less desireable than those currently listed in the BRCS-playtest
    > version? Any other comments?

    I still don`t like the concept of pluses and minuses for humans by
    default. FRCS seems to have gone a good direction with this, having
    regional feats. That should be the model to emulate.
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  9. #39
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    After numerous versions of humans, I finally ended up with the ol`
    boring human from the PHB. It`s just to powerful and flexible to be
    screwed with.

    However, not wanting to give up on cultural differences, I made up six
    background feats (only available during character creation). Also not
    that I give all "heroic" characters a bonus starting feat, so picking a
    background feat still leaves you with the normal number of feats (thus
    this may not be appropriate for everybody).

    The numbers and bonus types aren`t really that important and can easily
    be changed, but you get the point. Btw "region" is just a way of showing
    where this feat is the most commonly encountered.

    Pureblood Andu [Background]
    The blood of the ancient Andu runs strong in your veins.
    Region: Any Anuirean, Western Basin States, and Island States.
    Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Sense Motive checks and a +1
    synergy bonus on Will saves.

    Pureblood Basarjï [Background]
    The blood of the ancient Basarji runs strong in your veins.
    Region: Any Khinasi, and Eastern Marches.
    Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Diplomacy checks and a +1
    synergy bonus on Reflex saves.

    Pureblood Brecht [Background]
    The blood of the ancient Brecht runs strong in your veins.
    Region: Any Brecht.
    Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Bluff checks and a +1 synergy
    bonus on Reflex saves.

    Pureblood Masetian [Background]
    The blood of the ancient Masetians runs strong in your veins.
    Region: Any Masetian, and Island States.
    Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Perform checks and a +1 synergy
    bonus on Will saves.

    Pureblood Rjuven [Background]
    The blood of the ancient Rjuven runs strong in your veins.
    Region: Any Rjurik, Northern Marches, Western Reaches, and Overlook.
    Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Wilderness Lore checks and a +1
    synergy bonus on Fortitude saves.

    Pureblood Vos [Background]
    The blood of the ancient Vos runs strong in your veins.
    Region: Any Vos, Overlook, Zhaïnge Valley, and Docandragh.
    Benefit: You gain a +2 synergy bonus on Spellcraft checks and a +1
    synergy bonus on Fortitude saves.

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  10. #40
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    jaldaen wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1274
    >...
    >The following is the main reason for the penalty:
    >Outsiders cannot be raised or resurrected only a wish/miracle spell can bring them back. (this is a great weakness in and of itself... at least to me).
    >
    When in Birthright resurrection is so rare and shunned that virtually
    noone can expect to come back from the dead then it is no penalty at all ;-)
    bye
    Michael Romes

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