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02-06-2003, 01:00 AM #1
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I like most of what the BR team has done with the classes section but I
have some issues with the Magician class. I`ll outline these in detail below.
Flavor text - most of this I am happy with, except the part concerning
races. Nowhere in 2e BR did dwarves become magicians. I think the BRCS doc
should reflect consistency with the concept of the Magician being a nerfed
Mage, and discourage Dwarven Magicians just like the doc discourages
Dwarven true mages. Both are arcane magic which is something Dwarves don`t
do in Birthright. I am kind of ambivalent towards halfling magicians - but
at least I think the doc should say that they`re quite rare, because there
is no mention of a halfling magician in the original BR products. P.48 of
the Book of Magecraft states that only Humans can become magicians.
Game Rules
Hit dice - d6. WTF??? A higher hit die implies a "beefier" character.
Magicians are bookworms just like wizards; why are they tougher? Magicians
did not have a d6 hit die in 2nd edition. Why the power increase in 3e? I
would change this back to a d4.
Class skills - I like the expanded class skill list. This reflects the
ability of 2e magicians to learn Rogue proficiencies. Only change I would
suggest is that you add Pick Pockets as a class skill; in 3e this
represents prestidigitation, which falls within the realm of Magician
abilities, IMHO.
Skill points/level - I like magicians getting 4/level. They study fewer
types of spells, so have more time to practice skills.
Weapon and Armor proficiency - I am happy with this overall but I would
also add rapier proficiency to magicians, as it was an allowed proficiency
for them in 2nd edition. This suggestion, like many of my other thoughts,
is aimed at converting the magician as closely as possible between editions.
BAB/Saves - identical to wizard. Looks good.
Spontaneous Casting - a nice touch and not a significant power increase.
Looks good.
Special Ability - I like how the Special Ability progression has been
nerfed from Travis Doom`s original conversion, in which it was possible for
a magician to pick up more metamagic feats than a wizard (which didn`t make
sense). Now it is equal to wizard, except magician has the OPTION of taking
Spontaneous Spell, Cantrips, or Class Skill, which are all weaker than a
metamagic feat and therefore not overpowering IMHO. One change I would make
here is if the Magician picks up the class skill special ability, to let
them choose 2 class skills rather than one. This brings the power of the
special ability up to 1 feat (the Versatile feat lets you pick 2 skills).
Spell Progression - I would prefer that the spell progression was exactly
that of a Wizard, except the magician gets +1 bonus spell per level from
Illusion or Divination. I understand why this was changed (the new Magician
spell list) which incidentally is my primary objection to the new Magician
class as written.
New Spell List - This is my main problem with the class. As I see it the
Magician spell list is basically the same as the Bard list, except it is
expanded to include 7th-9th level spells. This is a good idea in principle,
and I understand where you are coming from, but IMO the end result
distracts significantly from the original Magician.
The original magician was not designed to be "balanced" as a PC class.
Arguably it was 2e`s first NPC class. The original magician was MEANT to be
weaker in almost every way than a regular wizard; the only advantage it had
was that you were a specialist in BOTH illusion and divination, but at a
very high price.
The BRCS doc`s incarnation of the Magician is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger
relative to a wizard than the 2e magician was vis-a-vis the 2e wizard. The
d6 HD, expanded skill list, extra skill points, wider variety of special
abilities, and expanded spell list, all together, represent a very
significant power increase.
The biggest problem is the healing spells. In normal D&D 3e, it`s fine for
a bard to have healing spells as magic is hardly rare. In a setting like FR
especially, where you can buy healing wands by the truckload and there are
18th level archmages begging for money on street corners, magic is hardly
"fantastic" or "wondrous." In a setting like that, there is nothing
"miraculous" about bringing people back from the brink of death merely by
touching them and saying a prayer.
In BR on the other hand, magical healing is a big deal and is the main
reason the elves lost so hard to humans. Healing is the biggest advantage
of clerics over mages. Why then, would that be such a big deal if elven
bards/magicians could cast healing spells too?
Furthermore, even in 2e, BR bards received a significant nerf compared to
standard 2e bards. Considering the nature of arcane magic in BR, shouldn`t
this be the case in 3e as well? If we are trying to be as faithful as
possible to the original rules, shouldn`t the bard spell list be
significantly reduced (especially to exclude healing spells?)
Take it from another angle - the premise (which you may or may not agree
with) that the magician was meant to be a lesser form of the wizard. The
"poor man`s" wizard, if you will.
How then, does that make sense, if the magician can perform magical
miracles of healing and the wizard can`t? Wizards are supposed to be able
to do everything a magician can do and more.
Healing spells aside, the addition of charms and summoning spells to the
bard/magician spell list represents a significant expansion of power
relative to 2e BR bards and magicians. In 2e magicians could only use
illusions and divinations above 2nd level; why all of a sudden should they
get the power to also use summonings and charms? P. 48 of the Book of
Magecraft is explicit: "these spellcasters specialize in the magic of
knowing and seeming."
In 2nd edition BR it specified that bards cast spells as magicians, except
they learn to use enchantment/charm spells through the use of ancient elven
songs. But that`s ALL they`re supposed to be able to use. They are not
supposed to be able to summon fiendish creatures from the nether realms,
which is what a summoning spell is. To me, this is much more a "wizard"
type of ability than something a dabbler (bard) or a seer/illusionist
(magician) would be able to do.
I hope I`ve outlined my thought process clearly enough. If the BRCS team
already discussed this at length then I apologize for bringing it up again,
but I feel very strongly about this. I hate seeing power inflation and this
is precisely it.
How I would address it -
1. Bards - Nerf the spell list. Take out all healing spells and summoning
spells, making it resemble the 2e BR bard spell list. Arcane Illusions and
Divinations only as normal spells, plus Enchantment/Charm spells as songs,
in a verbal component-only format. Fits well with the bardic song ability.
2. Magicians - Keep the spell list identical to what magicians had in 2e.
Magicians are supposed to be seers and common illusionists. They can grasp
the fundamentals of true magic (all 1st and 2nd level arcane spells) but
lack the ability to progress farther. They can only use arcane illusions
and divinations of 3rd level and higher. Definitely lose the healing
spells. I also think being able to summon creatures from the Outer planes
and dominate a person`s mind goes far beyond the scope of a magicians power.
In this regard I liked Travis Doom`s original magician conversion much
better (in fact I thought it was quite good, except for the frequency of
the special abilities), because it stayed true to the 2e spell list.
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02-06-2003, 01:24 AM #2
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>
> Hit dice - d6. WTF??? A higher hit die implies a "beefier"
> character. Magicians are bookworms just like wizards; why are
> they tougher? Magicians did not have a d6 hit die in 2nd
> edition. Why the power increase in 3e? I would change this
> back to a d4.
I don`t agree here. Magicians are more like Rogues, using their magical
skills to earn for living, just like you mentioned in Class Skills
comment.
>
> Skill points/level - I like magicians getting 4/level. They
> study fewer types of spells, so have more time to practice skills.
For same reasons, I agree here. They should not gain as many as thieves,
but a little more that 4.
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02-06-2003, 01:43 AM #3
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Milos Rasic" <mrasic@TEHNICOM.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] BRCS Chapter 1 - the Magician Class
> >
> > Hit dice - d6. WTF??? A higher hit die implies a "beefier"
> > character. Magicians are bookworms just like wizards; why are
> > they tougher? Magicians did not have a d6 hit die in 2nd
> > edition. Why the power increase in 3e? I would change this
> > back to a d4.
> > >
this
> > Skill points/level - I like magicians getting 4/level. They
> > study fewer types of spells, so have more time to practice skills.
>
and this are related--they study a lot, but also can`t study magic or as
complex magic, this gives them more time to run and play outdoors er...ehm,
learn combat techniques, defense traits--they aren`t necessarily
tougher--just better trained--D&D"s paradigm of HP not being strictly a
measure of physical health.
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02-06-2003, 03:26 AM #4
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At 07:37 PM 2/5/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Milos Rasic" <mrasic@TEHNICOM.NET>
>To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 7:06 PM
>Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] BRCS Chapter 1 - the Magician Class
>
>
>> >
>> > Hit dice - d6. WTF??? A higher hit die implies a "beefier"
>> > character. Magicians are bookworms just like wizards; why are
>> > they tougher? Magicians did not have a d6 hit die in 2nd
>> > edition. Why the power increase in 3e? I would change this
>> > back to a d4.
>> > >
>
>this
>
>
>> > Skill points/level - I like magicians getting 4/level. They
>> > study fewer types of spells, so have more time to practice skills.
>>
>
>
>and this are related--they study a lot, but also can`t study magic or as
>complex magic, this gives them more time to run and play outdoors er...ehm,
>learn combat techniques, defense traits--they aren`t necessarily
>tougher--just better trained--D&D"s paradigm of HP not being strictly a
>measure of physical health.
That`s a good point, and I know my suggestions look contradictory. HOWEVER,
in 2e BR Magicians had the same HP as wizards (suggesting a similar lack of
physical activity) but had more TRAINING in non-fighter, non-wizard areas,
reflected in their wider weapon selection and rogue profs.
I guess what I am getting at is yes, they do have more time on their hands,
but no, they don`t use that time to exercise. They instead use it to learn
roguish stuff without actually being a rogue.
A good precedent for this is the Arcane Trickster (mage/thief) PrC, which
gets d4 hp.
I just don`t see the need to increase the hit die from a d4 to a d6 - I
would keep it with Travis Doom`s original Magician conversion (which for
the most part is very good, IMO).
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02-06-2003, 03:26 AM #5
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> I guess what I am getting at is yes, they do have more time on their
hands,
> but no, they don`t use that time to exercise. They instead use it to learn
> roguish stuff without actually being a rogue.
>
Well, consider this from the logic of pure physicality most thief stuff is
arduous....and likely physical.
> A good precedent for this is the Arcane Trickster (mage/thief) PrC, which
> gets d4 hp.
>
> I just don`t see the need to increase the hit die from a d4 to a d6 - I
> would keep it with Travis Doom`s original Magician conversion (which for
> the most part is very good, IMO).
>
I don`t use 3E or D20 currently as the only incarnation I`ve found tolerable
is Mutants and Masterminds. So it`s kinda moot to me...
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02-06-2003, 03:55 AM #6
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At 09:13 PM 2/5/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>> I guess what I am getting at is yes, they do have more time on their
>hands,
>> but no, they don`t use that time to exercise. They instead use it to learn
>> roguish stuff without actually being a rogue.
>>
>
>Well, consider this from the logic of pure physicality most thief stuff is
>arduous....and likely physical.
Yeah, but we`re not giving magicians jump, balance and tumble as class
skills are we?
We`re giving them Use Magic Device, several Charisma skills, and I would
suggest Pick Pockets.
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02-06-2003, 05:23 AM #7
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There was a way for a halfling to gain Magician Levels in the original boxed
set; but it was sort of a cheese method: Become a priest of Ruornil and you
gain casting ability as a magician of half your priest level (I think that
is what it was). So I think halflings should be able to take levels in
Magician to try and stay true to the original setting somewhat; but ONLY if
they are first clerics of Ruornil.
Tony
----Original Message Follows----
From: Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
I like most of what the BR team has done with the classes section but I
have some issues with the Magician class. I`ll outline these in detail
below.
Flavor text - most of this I am happy with, except the part concerning
races. Nowhere in 2e BR did dwarves become magicians. I think the BRCS doc
should reflect consistency with the concept of the Magician being a nerfed
Mage, and discourage Dwarven Magicians just like the doc discourages Dwarven
true mages. Both are arcane magic which is something Dwarves don`t do in
Birthright. I am kind of ambivalent towards halfling magicians - but at
least I think the doc should say that they`re quite rare, because there is
no mention of a halfling magician in the original BR products. P.48 of the
Book of Magecraft states that only Humans can become magicians.
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02-06-2003, 07:18 AM #8
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I really only have a problem with dwarves being magicians, because of their
"antimagic" nature evidenced by save vs spell bonuses. In 2e halflings were
considered to be "antimagic" as well because they used a similar mechanic.
In 3e halflings are actually totally unlike the halflings in 2e (2e
halflings are a complete copy of Tolkien hobbits) and furthermore they lost
the antimagic aspect.
I for one much prefer Tolkien`s hobbits to WOTC`s new interpretation of
them, so they`ll always be chubby, LG pastoral types in my games, even
though their stats might change.
At 11:55 PM 2/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>There was a way for a halfling to gain Magician Levels in the original boxed
>set; but it was sort of a cheese method: Become a priest of Ruornil and you
>gain casting ability as a magician of half your priest level (I think that
>is what it was). So I think halflings should be able to take levels in
>Magician to try and stay true to the original setting somewhat; but ONLY if
>they are first clerics of Ruornil.
>
>Tony
>
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
>
>I like most of what the BR team has done with the classes section but I
>have some issues with the Magician class. I`ll outline these in detail
>below.
>
>Flavor text - most of this I am happy with, except the part concerning
>races. Nowhere in 2e BR did dwarves become magicians. I think the BRCS doc
>should reflect consistency with the concept of the Magician being a nerfed
>Mage, and discourage Dwarven Magicians just like the doc discourages Dwarven
>true mages. Both are arcane magic which is something Dwarves don`t do in
>Birthright. I am kind of ambivalent towards halfling magicians - but at
>least I think the doc should say that they`re quite rare, because there is
>no mention of a halfling magician in the original BR products. P.48 of the
>Book of Magecraft states that only Humans can become magicians.
>
>
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02-06-2003, 09:22 AM #9
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The basic issue that has to be decided on with the magician is ifit is a PC
class or an NPC class.
Personally, I don`t favor using NPC classes at all, but I still think that
the Magician should be an NPC class. And that means it should be
significantly worse than a wizard. Preferably, it should also be less
complex to use in play, with less special abilities.
If this is the path chosen, there is no need for all the special abilities
or the d6 hit points. I still think they should have a good skill list and
skill points, but that is enough. After all, compared to adepts, they still
rulethe playing field (especially at low levels).
On the other hand, if they are made a PC-equivalent class, then the d6 hit
die and all the class abilities are highly motivated. I feel this is the
approach taken by the design team. It is not the path I would have taken for
the magician, but it is a valid design descision.
I also strongly agree that magicians should have the Pick Pocket skill for
stage magic!
/Carl
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02-06-2003, 07:59 PM #10
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On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 06:34:25PM -0600, Lord Shade wrote:
> I like most of what the BR team has done with the classes section but I
> have some issues with the Magician class. I`ll outline these in detail below.
[snip]
> How then, does that make sense, if the magician can perform magical
> miracles of healing and the wizard can`t? Wizards are supposed to be able
> to do everything a magician can do and more.
>
> Healing spells aside, the addition of charms and summoning spells to the
> bard/magician spell list represents a significant expansion of power
> relative to 2e BR bards and magicians. In 2e magicians could only use
> illusions and divinations above 2nd level; why all of a sudden should they
> get the power to also use summonings and charms? P. 48 of the Book of
> Magecraft is explicit: "these spellcasters specialize in the magic of
> knowing and seeming."
The "path of lesser magic" presented an interesting power. 3e bards have access
to healing magic. Thus a number of potential options were manifest:
Option #1: Bards don`t use lesser magic... they using something else, or lesser
magic plus some divine magic. Probably a bad option: All BR campaign
material suggests that bards are very much practioners of "lesser magic".
Option #2: BR Bards shouldn`t have access to healing magic. Probably a bad option:
Anything that powers _down_ bards seems like a big mistake.
Option #3: Reinterpret "lesser magic" to allow for the new bard spell list and
provide an opportunity for the magician class to be an actually playable
PC class.
The team went with option #3 (although I am oversimplifying the
discussion and the total number of options considerably). The PAGES of
kit information on magicians gives strong indication that the magician
was intended to be a full PC class. The previous "wizards/sorcerors can
do everything thing better" conversions made this unlikely. The d20
team came to accept this as being the "best" compromise in our
opinion. Not only does it make a very campaign specific class more
playable, it also GREATLY increases the believability of statements
like "there are are a few score true mages in all of Cerilia" from the
PCs POV if there aren`t two-four true mages in every realm.
- Doom
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