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  1. #101
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    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

    > I like it, though I wonder if 1/10 might be better. 1/25 always struck me
    > as a rather strange number in the first place. In general, though, I`d
    > prefer a more "organic" system of magic item creation that included
    various
    > other factors like the skill of the spellcaster, the quality of the base,
    > non-magical item used, etc. D&D`s flat magic item creation rules are
    > rather boring and simplistic in addition to being a rather frighteningly
    > imbalanced aspect of the game.
    >

    The issi is: how much complexity do you want. A magic sword costs 1000 gp
    and 80 XP to create (in addition to the weapon itself). This can either be
    played out as a straighth expense, in which case it represents the creator
    "subcontracting" the collection of mundane and magical components to various
    spirits, alchemists oand such. Or it can be played out.

    "First, the creator petitions the local smith to create a blade of
    surpassing strength and beauty. Then, the dew of twelve mornings and the
    wine of twelve countries must be collected for the tempering of the blade.
    Twelve virgin boys and twelve virgin girls must chant while the final edge
    is put on the sword, and the names of twelve ancestors spoken..." Etc.,
    etc., ad nauseum.

    This is just fluff. It can be important fluff, and a player who wishes to go
    through with it and play it out should perhaps be granted a reduction in
    price as far as "game mechanics" (gp and XP) are concearned because of the
    time and effort the PLAYER put into it. But I see no reason to burden
    players who do not want to go through this process with all the details.
    Anyway it would take a whole volume just to come up with recepies like this
    one, and might cause you to be accused of writing occult manuals. So I say
    that this is the realm of the DM. It might fit nto some special expansion,
    but it should not be in the "basic" rules of a conversion manual.

    Magic item creation in 3E is about player empowerment. It used to be that
    only the DM could create agic items - the cost was simply to high. And if a
    PC ever created a magic item, it was never a simple sword +1 - paying 1 Con
    was only worth it for holy swords and the like. Now, in 3E, any spellcaster
    that decides to take the feats (which is still not done lightly) can create
    items. The DMs absolute power over this aspect of the game is removed. To
    make this possible, the magic item creation rules have been extensively
    reworked to make the items balanced for their price and prerequisites. Of
    course, some DMs might be afraid of this. The balancing has only been
    partially successful. But still, it is a central part of the 3E idea of
    adding options and choices.

    What Iwant to say is that while item creation in Birthright can be more
    difficult than normal (higher XP cost, possibly an RP cost), it should notbe
    made impossible (one feat per type of magic item).

    /Carl





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  2. #102
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    One of the other options discussed by the development team was to add +1 level to the magic item. While this bumped up the cost (in gp and exp) it was a slightly more cumbersome than a straight percentage increase (which was mentioned in the BRRB as a means of increasing the raritly of magic items). The downside of this +1 level was that it made creating lower magic items much more desireable than higher level ones and seemed to be counter to the concept that there are fewer magic items but that they are generally more powerful than the standard campaign's versions.
    Duane Eggert

  3. #103
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    Magic item creation in 3E is about player empowerment. It used to be that only the DM could create agic items - the cost was simply to high. And if a PC ever created a magic item, it was never a simple sword +1 - paying 1 Con was only worth it for holy swords and the like.
    I didn't remember it from 2E (it's been a LONG time...). I am thinking about reintroducing the mechanic. Requiring 1 Con (in addition to the normal XP costs) should create just the thing we are after here - the magic items will be far rarer, but they will tend to be powerful. I suggest rquiring 1 Con (permament decrease, with no Restoration possible unless the magic item is destroyed in the ceremony) for all magic-item creation feats except Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll.

    Speaking of "rare-magic" - can anyone think of a way to limit the magical feel of the clerics in 3E? I was thinking of lowering the "manifestations" of most clerical spells. A Bless spell, for example, will not have any visible signs. The magic will still be there (losing it would require a rewrite of the Cleric class, which is clearly beyond the desired scope) but it will be on "mute". Only exremely powerful spells (and turn undead?) will have any outward sign - all the rest could be explained as "coincidence", "luck", or so forth. Basically, the gods are hidden, working their miracles behind the scenes.
    I am not sure if this is even a rule-change. More like a mood-change. I am just not sure if it is applicable to enough cleric spells (cure minor wounds, light, mending, to name some orisons).

  4. #104
    Senior Member blitzmacher's Avatar
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    >I didn't remember it from 2E (it's been a LONG time...). I am thinking about reintroducing the mechanic. Requiring 1 Con (in addition to the normal XP costs) should create just the thing we are after here - the magic items will be far rarer, but they will tend to be powerful. I suggest rquiring 1 Con (permament decrease, with no Restoration possible unless the magic item is destroyed in the ceremony) for all magic-item creation feats except Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll.<

    I think requiring 1 bloodline point for each magical ability for magic items, and RP amount equal to xp spent for scrolls and potions, would work better for BR. Seeing how the battle of mt. D. changed the way magic functioned in Cerilia.
    Cattle die and kinsmen die,
    thyself too soon must die,
    but one thing never, I ween, will die, --
    fair fame of one who has earned.
    HAVAMAL

  5. #105
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    The potential problem with bloodline expenditure is that per 3rd ed rules any spellcaster can create a magic item if he has the right feats. There is no real game reason to require a blooded character to create all items (above scrolls and potions). If the magician as a dual specialist illusions/diviner is the way things proceed then this would mostly eliminate them from creating magical items. Somehow I always imagined most divination "devices" as being created by magicians vice wizards.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #106
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:17 PM


    > There is no real game reason to require a blooded character to
    > create all items (above scrolls and potions).

    Scrolls and potions, yes, but what about tattoos and other spell storage
    devices? Tattoos where described in the Vos setting material, and its
    certainly reasonable to include infusions. I use them in Rjurik areas.
    Generalizing spell storage devices is easy enough, because all class
    dependent spell storage devices would be mechanically like scrolls
    (requiring a seperate feat, but that feat looking very much like scribe
    scroll) and all spell storage devices that can be used regardless of class
    would operate mechanically like potions.

    Whether a spell caster would create potions, carve runes, or paint tattoos
    would be cultural (another way to distingish cultures). In Anuire,
    Brectuer, and Khinasi I have been using scrolls and potions, in Rjurik
    infusions and runes, and in Vosgaard tattoos. People familiar with arabic
    culture may have new suggestions for specific Khinasi alternatives to
    scrolls and/or potions.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #107
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    On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:47:06 +0100, blitzmacher <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    wrote:
    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1272
    > blitzmacher wrote:
    > >I didn`t remember it from 2E (it`s been a LONG time...). I am thinking
    about reintroducing the mechanic. Requiring 1 Con (in addition to the normal
    XP costs) should create just the thing we are after here - the magic items
    will be far rarer, but they will tend to be powerful. I suggest rquiring 1
    Con (permament decrease, with no Restoration possible unless the magic item
    is destroyed in the ceremony) for all magic-item creation feats except Brew
    Potion and Scribe Scroll.<
    >
    >I think requiring 1 bloodline point for each magical ability for magic
    items, and RP amount equal to xp spent for scrolls and potions, would work
    better for BR. Seeing how the battle of mt. D. changed the way magic
    functioned in Cerilia.

    I disagree because of several points:
    1) Requiring a drop of blood means that unblooded characters can´t create
    magical items. The number of True Wizards+Magicians IS already much lower
    than in other worlds. That alone means the overall number of arcane magical
    items is lower than in other worlds. Banning Magicians from creating magical
    items (even from creating crystal balls which would fit perfectly for
    Magicians!), and banning even elven wizards without bloodlines from creating
    magical items would be a severely restricting rule - and who created all the
    elven magical items before Deismaar?

    I would instead say that Magicians should have full access to the few spells
    in the "Universal" School of Magic, meaning that they can use the Permanency
    spell to create magic items of which they know the required spell, e.g.
    Crystal Ball/scrying.

    2) Spending a point of Bloodline strenght is something VERY different for
    different characters:
    A Wizard with a bloodline strength of only 2 - he spends 1 point of
    bloodline strenght to create a magical item, then spends 8 RP to raise his
    bloodline again to the old value - a very small sacrifice.

    A Wizard with a bloodline strenght of 30 - he spends 1 point and has to
    spend 120 RP to gain his old value back, right?

    So this is unbalanced as one character has to sacrifice considerable more
    than the other by spending 1 point of blood.

    To balance it, you would have to set a RP amount for the creation of the
    magic item, say 10 RP per + of the item and then the scion spends bloodline
    strength to pay. A scion with a high bloodline strength would have to spend
    still only 1 point, but scions with lower lines would have to sacrifice more
    than 1 point.


    3) Wizards of Aebrynnis are not less powerful than Wizards of other worlds -
    they are only much rarer!

    Why then should they have to spend something that wizards of other worlds do
    not have to - without gaining an advantage?

    Using the own blood in a world with bloodlines is a really interesting
    option. The Blood Magus from Tome&Blood for example can use a drop of his
    blood (inflicting points of Hitpoint damage to himself) to substitute for a
    minor material component or more of his blood for a major component (gp
    price 1-50 - damage 5, gp 51-300 damage 11, gp 301-750 damage 17, component
    750+ damagee 23)

    This ability would be perfectly fitting for True Wizards of Aebrynnis in my
    opinion. Not sacrificing Bloodlinestrenght, but normal blood to reduce the
    bookkeeping of components.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  8. #108
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    On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:47:06 +0100, blitzmacher <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    wrote:
    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1272
    > blitzmacher wrote:
    > >I didn`t remember it from 2E (it`s been a LONG time...). I am thinking
    about reintroducing the mechanic. Requiring 1 Con (in addition to the normal
    XP costs) should create just the thing we are after here - the magic items
    will be far rarer, but they will tend to be powerful. I suggest rquiring 1
    Con (permament decrease, with no Restoration possible unless the magic item
    is destroyed in the ceremony) for all magic-item creation feats except Brew
    Potion and Scribe Scroll.<
    >
    >I think requiring 1 bloodline point for each magical ability for magic
    items, and RP amount equal to xp spent for scrolls and potions, would work
    better for BR. Seeing how the battle of mt. D. changed the way magic
    functioned in Cerilia.

    I disagree because of several points:
    1) Requiring a drop of blood means that unblooded characters can´t create
    magical items. The number of True Wizards+Magicians IS already much lower
    than in other worlds. That alone means the overall number of arcane magical
    items is lower than in other worlds. Banning Magicians from creating magical
    items (even from creating crystal balls which would fit perfectly for
    Magicians!), and banning even elven wizards without bloodlines from creating
    magical items would be a severely restricting rule - and who created all the
    elven magical items before Deismaar?

    I would instead say that Magicians should have full access to the few spells
    in the "Universal" School of Magic, meaning that they can use the Permanency
    spell to create magic items of which they know the required spell, e.g.
    Crystal Ball/scrying.

    2) Spending a point of Bloodline strenght is something VERY different for
    different characters:
    A Wizard with a bloodline strength of only 2 - he spends 1 point of
    bloodline strenght to create a magical item, then spends 8 RP to raise his
    bloodline again to the old value - a very small sacrifice.

    A Wizard with a bloodline strenght of 30 - he spends 1 point and has to
    spend 120 RP to gain his old value back, right?

    So this is unbalanced as one character has to sacrifice considerable more
    than the other by spending 1 point of blood.

    To balance it, you would have to set a RP amount for the creation of the
    magic item, say 10 RP per + of the item and then the scion spends bloodline
    strength to pay. A scion with a high bloodline strength would have to spend
    still only 1 point, but scions with lower lines would have to sacrifice more
    than 1 point.


    3) Wizards of Aebrynnis are not less powerful than Wizards of other worlds -
    they are only much rarer!

    Why then should they have to spend something that wizards of other worlds do
    not have to - without gaining an advantage?

    Using the own blood in a world with bloodlines is a really interesting
    option. The Blood Magus from Tome&Blood for example can use a drop of his
    blood (inflicting points of Hitpoint damage to himself) to substitute for a
    minor material component or more of his blood for a major component (gp
    price 1-50 - damage 5, gp 51-300 damage 11, gp 301-750 damage 17, component
    750+ damagee 23)

    This ability would be perfectly fitting for True Wizards of Aebrynnis in my
    opinion. Not sacrificing Bloodlinestrenght, but normal blood to reduce the
    bookkeeping of components.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  9. #109
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Chapter 8 contained some magic items that "require" blood ability score points, but these were rare and specifically designed to be "about" the blood. There was also a variant to "allow" the expenditure of blood ability score points in lieu of experience points to create magic items.

    Oh yeah, the 3rd ed version of "permanency" is a whole lot more restrictive as to what spells can be made permanent on an object or area. This reflects the 3rd ed concept of using feats to create magic items. Also permancy is only a sorc/wiz spell so they are the only classes that could create magic items using this system (i.e., clerics could not create a magic item). The required levels necessary to use this spell to make permanent magic items/areas is much more restrictive than the feats as is the exp cost involved.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #110
    Senior Member blitzmacher's Avatar
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    Requiring a bloodline score or RP in the creation of magic items is very Birthright Oriented. When the old gods died magic in Cerilia was changed, before the event creating these items was more common, after it the process was lost. After the event the use of realm spells( a greater magic, just like magic items are, a greater magic), came into to play, but only by those who were blooded. Those without bloodlines lack that one link to the lands magic that the blooded have, and therefore cannot perform greater magic. The same with elves, having elven blood may allow them to be a wizard, but not all of the can cast realm magic. Bloodlines has to be the tie in to creating magic items, it keeps any chance of mass producing magic items from happening. If a character wants to make a lot of items they can, but they also have to worry about maintaning their source holdings.

    >A Wizard with a bloodline strength of only 2 - he spends 1 point of
    bloodline strenght to create a magical item, then spends 8 RP to raise his
    bloodline again to the old value - a very small sacrifice.<

    how long does it take him to collect those RP's

    >Why then should they have to spend something that wizards of other worlds do
    not have to - without gaining an advantage?<

    Wizards of other worlds have access to more items, but they don't have bloodlines, kinda balances itself out.

    >The potential problem with bloodline expenditure is that per 3rd ed rules any spellcaster can create a magic item if he has the right feats<

    Birthright has always had exceptions to the rules, that's what makes it so good
    Cattle die and kinsmen die,
    thyself too soon must die,
    but one thing never, I ween, will die, --
    fair fame of one who has earned.
    HAVAMAL

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