Well done

[DanMcSorley]

On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> I greatly disliked the fact that Clerics have become full spellcasters
> in 3E. In 2E they had not all spells, limited by access to speheres
> (major, minor, no) and were somewhat of a limited fighter (all armour,
> shield, blunt martial weapons, more hits than a wizard). In 3E they
> retained their combat abilities but suddenly could not only cast ALL
> divine spells, but also got special abilities form 2 domains - something
> comparable a wizard would would only get if he would specialize in a
> school. But then the wizard loses access to another school - why should
> the Cleric gain an advantage without losing something?

The BRCS is not to rewrite core 3e rules. It is to bring BR in line with
core 3e rules. We should not screw around with the cleric class just for
the fun of it.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[kgauck]

The most simple solution, which I have employed, may be to simply describe
the bard as a divine spellcaster, devoted IMC either to Cuiraecen (as
herald, diplomat, and ambassador), Laerme (as peformer, artist, or singer of
love songs), or Erik (repository of Rjurik lore).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

> The most simple solution, which I have employed, may be to simply describe
> the bard as a divine spellcaster, devoted IMC either to Cuiraecen (as
> herald, diplomat, and ambassador), Laerme (as peformer, artist, or singer
of
> love songs), or Erik (repository of Rjurik lore).
>

Good idea actually. this also solves the eternal question of bardic
armor-wearing and generally powers up the class some - which itneeds. I say
keep spell list selection and spontaneous castin as it is - there is no rule
saying that all divine casters have access to all their spells, or that they
cannot be spontaneous casters. in fact, the Oriental Adventures Shugenja is
precisely that.

/Carl


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[doom]

On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:43:12PM -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> The most simple solution, which I have employed, may be to simply describe
> the bard as a divine spellcaster, devoted IMC either to Cuiraecen (as
> herald, diplomat, and ambassador), Laerme (as peformer, artist, or singer of
> love songs), or Erik (repository of Rjurik lore).

Mechanically, this might avoid the problem but it would conflict with the
cannon "the magic taught by the bardic colleges was handed down by the
elves". If something has to give, this might be the lesser evil.
Definately an idea worth considering.

- Doom

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[ConjurerDragon]

daniel mcsorley wrote:

>On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>I greatly disliked the fact that Clerics have become full spellcasters
>>in 3E. In 2E they had not all spells, limited by access to speheres
>>(major, minor, no) and were somewhat of a limited fighter (all armour,
>>shield, blunt martial weapons, more hits than a wizard). In 3E they
>>retained their combat abilities but suddenly could not only cast ALL
>>divine spells, but also got special abilities form 2 domains - something
>>comparable a wizard would would only get if he would specialize in a
>>school. But then the wizard loses access to another school - why should
>>the Cleric gain an advantage without losing something?
>>
>The BRCS is not to rewrite core 3e rules. It is to bring BR in line with
>core 3e rules. We should not screw around with the cleric class just for
>the fun of it.
>
Realm spells like "Maintain Armies" were written so that they could only
be cast by Priests of Avani with the Major Creation sphere, not by the
Priests of Cuiraceen or Haelyn. Haelynite priests were dependant on
priests of Nesirie for highlevel healing and divination spells. Priests
of different gods supplemented their powers and teamwork with the
priests of gods thatt were "allied" with your god was encouraged.

The whole problem of resurrection was not so problematic, as not all
gods even granted resurrectiion (a spell of that level from the
Necromantic sphere required major access to that sphere which as far as
I remember only Nesirie, Ruornil, Sera, Eloele and Kriesha had. "Mosts
sects of Erik and Belinik..." as in the draft 0.0 mentioned would never
have been able to even cast the spell.

What I want to show with that, is my personal opinion, which is probably
as non-canon as that of some people who want gunpowder in Cerilia (I
don´t but I can understand them). I liked the flavour of priest who were
not able to cast ALL spells, but limited in their spell selection due to
a god, who is also limited in power and can provide spells only from
spheres which fit to his portfolio. That I direly miss in the cast-all
3E cleric.

I know that this "flavour" that I miss is not specific Birthright, but
2E. However as Birthright is the only world I play in, it was for me
connected to the world.

> irdeggman wrote:
> Michael there is no "divine" spell list. When the PHB says clr - that means it is on the cleric spell list. The PHB lists all the locations the spell falls under. Using the cure light wounds spell as an aexample, it is listed as Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1 and Rgr 2. This means that it is a 1st level spell on the bard, cleric, druid and paladin spell lists, it is 2nd level spell on the ranger spell list and is a 1st level spell on the Healing Domain list. The lists all work together not exclusively.
>
I know. I used the term divine spell list, simply to differentiate if
from the arcane (wizard/sorceror) spell list. It is sometimes hard for
me, who got used to 2E to remember that now there are several spell
lists, not just wizard - priest ;-)

>Hence all clerics that can cast a 1st level spell can cast the spell whether or not they have access to the healing domain (or chose it if they had the option). All of the version of cure light wounds are divine spells, except for the bard`s version which is arcane. All of the classes are described as either divine or arcane casters.
>
>To say that if a specific domain is not listed with the spell then it is not available to any cleric that doesn`t have the domain is quite contrary to the 3rd ed system of spell casting.
>
Yes, it is. As I wrote, the 2E system of limiting spell availability to
the powers of the followed god made much more sense to me, than the 3E
system of allowing all spells from the cleric list + 2 domain lists + 2
granted powers + 1 additional spell per level.

It struck me as very similar to the specialized wizard who gains a
"granted power" (+1 spelllevel) and additional spell per spelllevel -
but without any penalties.

What I wanted to show was a way to emulate the 2E system of spheres
without having to compare every 3E spell with the 2E spell list and look
which sphere it was.

3E itself has a negligible restriction in that a good cleric of a god
can´t cast evil spells (chaotic-law is similar).
I thought to retain the flavour of specialty priests in Birhtright (even
if 3E has dropped them) it would be possible to create an easy rule like
I suggested
Only 2 chosen domains full access, all the other domains minor (spell
level 0-3) access, domains your god has not no access.
Clerical spells without a domain listed (as Bless) could still be cast
by all clerics.

I found that not too harsh, as 2E Clerics had similar restrictions to
spellcasting - they were after all only part spellcasters as opposed to
the physically weak true spellcaster, the wizard.

A variant rule, not so harsh could be:
Major access to the spells of domains your god has and all spells on the
cleric list which do not list a domain, minor access to the other domain
spells (only level 0-3, even if they are listed as Clr X spell, you have
no access to the spell if it is a e.g. Chaos domain spell and your god
has not Chaos in his list).

No access only to that spells that are opposed to domains of your god
(good-evil, law-chaos, Healing-Destruction) or your alignment (good
-evil spells).
bye
Michael Romes

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[Green Knight]

Hi

In an attempt to retian some of the 2E flavor, I`ve experimented with "class templates", very similar to the creature templates of the MM.

Under this system, all clerics (and paladins for that matter) must choose a template (that of their god), and abide by the restrictions and benefits presented there (which includes additional/banned class skills, additional/banned spells, different proficiencies etc.).

Its quite neat, as it keeps the core class untouched, but opens up the posibility for advanced players to subtly alter it.

Cheers
Bjørn
>
> Fra: Michael Romes <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
> Dato: 2003/02/10 Mon AM 09:51:57 CET
> Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Emne: Re: Well done [36#1271]
>
> daniel mcsorley wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> >
> >>I greatly disliked the fact that Clerics have become full spellcasters
> >>in 3E. In 2E they had not all spells, limited by access to speheres
> >>(major, minor, no) and were somewhat of a limited fighter (all armour,
> >>shield, blunt martial weapons, more hits than a wizard). In 3E they
> >>retained their combat abilities but suddenly could not only cast ALL
> >>divine spells, but also got special abilities form 2 domains - something
> >>comparable a wizard would would only get if he would specialize in a
> >>school. But then the wizard loses access to another school - why should
> >>the Cleric gain an advantage without losing something?
> >>
> >The BRCS is not to rewrite core 3e rules. It is to bring BR in line with
> >core 3e rules. We should not screw around with the cleric class just for
> >the fun of it.
> >
> Realm spells like "Maintain Armies" were written so that they could only
> be cast by Priests of Avani with the Major Creation sphere, not by the
> Priests of Cuiraceen or Haelyn. Haelynite priests were dependant on
> priests of Nesirie for highlevel healing and divination spells. Priests
> of different gods supplemented their powers and teamwork with the
> priests of gods thatt were "allied" with your god was encouraged.
>
> The whole problem of resurrection was not so problematic, as not all
> gods even granted resurrectiion (a spell of that level from the
> Necromantic sphere required major access to that sphere which as far as
> I remember only Nesirie, Ruornil, Sera, Eloele and Kriesha had. "Mosts
> sects of Erik and Belinik..." as in the draft 0.0 mentioned would never
> have been able to even cast the spell.
>
> What I want to show with that, is my personal opinion, which is probably
> as non-canon as that of some people who want gunpowder in Cerilia (I
> don´t but I can understand them). I liked the flavour of priest who were
> not able to cast ALL spells, but limited in their spell selection due to
> a god, who is also limited in power and can provide spells only from
> spheres which fit to his portfolio. That I direly miss in the cast-all
> 3E cleric.
>
> I know that this "flavour" that I miss is not specific Birthright, but
> 2E. However as Birthright is the only world I play in, it was for me
> connected to the world.
>
> > irdeggman wrote:
> > Michael there is no "divine" spell list. When the PHB says clr - that means it is on the cleric spell list. The PHB lists all the locations the spell falls under. Using the cure light wounds spell as an aexample, it is listed as Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Healing 1, Pal 1 and Rgr 2. This means that it is a 1st level spell on the bard, cleric, druid and paladin spell lists, it is 2nd level spell on the ranger spell list and is a 1st level spell on the Healing Domain list. The lists all work together not exclusively.
> >
> I know. I used the term divine spell list, simply to differentiate if
> from the arcane (wizard/sorceror) spell list. It is sometimes hard for
> me, who got used to 2E to remember that now there are several spell
> lists, not just wizard - priest ;-)
>
> >Hence all clerics that can cast a 1st level spell can cast the spell whether or not they have access to the healing domain (or chose it if they had the option). All of the version of cure light wounds are divine spells, except for the bard`s version which is arcane. All of the classes are described as either divine or arcane casters.
> >
> >To say that if a specific domain is not listed with the spell then it is not available to any cleric that doesn`t have the domain is quite contrary to the 3rd ed system of spell casting.
> >
> Yes, it is. As I wrote, the 2E system of limiting spell availability to
> the powers of the followed god made much more sense to me, than the 3E
> system of allowing all spells from the cleric list + 2 domain lists + 2
> granted powers + 1 additional spell per level.
>
> It struck me as very similar to the specialized wizard who gains a
> "granted power" (+1 spelllevel) and additional spell per spelllevel -
> but without any penalties.
>
> What I wanted to show was a way to emulate the 2E system of spheres
> without having to compare every 3E spell with the 2E spell list and look
> which sphere it was.
>
> 3E itself has a negligible restriction in that a good cleric of a god
> can´t cast evil spells (chaotic-law is similar).
> I thought to retain the flavour of specialty priests in Birhtright (even
> if 3E has dropped them) it would be possible to create an easy rule like
> I suggested
> Only 2 chosen domains full access, all the other domains minor (spell
> level 0-3) access, domains your god has not no access.
> Clerical spells without a domain listed (as Bless) could still be cast
> by all clerics.
>
> I found that not too harsh, as 2E Clerics had similar restrictions to
> spellcasting - they were after all only part spellcasters as opposed to
> the physically weak true spellcaster, the wizard.
>
> A variant rule, not so harsh could be:
> Major access to the spells of domains your god has and all spells on the
> cleric list which do not list a domain, minor access to the other domain
> spells (only level 0-3, even if they are listed as Clr X spell, you have
> no access to the spell if it is a e.g. Chaos domain spell and your god
> has not Chaos in his list).
>
> No access only to that spells that are opposed to domains of your god
> (good-evil, law-chaos, Healing-Destruction) or your alignment (good
> -evil spells).
> bye
> Michael Romes
>
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Cheers
Bjørn

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[Green Knight]

"Dr. Travis Doom" wrote

> Mechanically, this might avoid the problem but it would conflict with the
> cannon "the magic taught by the bardic colleges was handed down by the
> elves". If something has to give, this might be the lesser evil.
> Definately an idea worth considering.
>
> - Doom

I have experimented with a separate bard class (called the skald for lack of a better name), that uses divine magic. Otherwise the class shares much with the bard class.

This lets me keep both the 2E bard, and introduce a bard that doesn`t break with the cannon above. I use it mainly for the Rjurik and the Vos, who I feel have (for very different reasons) need for their own tradition, not handed down from the elves. the class can also be used with goblins and other such creatures.

Well, I suppose it doesn`t solve the problem discussed here; just an idea really.

Cheers
Bjørn

Cheers
Bjørn

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

> The most simple solution, which I have employed, may be to simply describe
> the bard as a divine spellcaster, devoted IMC either to Cuiraecen (as
> herald, diplomat, and ambassador), Laerme (as peformer, artist, or singer
of
> love songs), or Erik (repository of Rjurik lore).
>

Good idea actually. this also solves the eternal question of bardic
armor-wearing and generally powers up the class some - which itneeds. I say
keep spell list selection and spontaneous castin as it is - there is no rule
saying that all divine casters have access to all their spells, or that they
cannot be spontaneous casters. in fact, the Oriental Adventures Shugenja is
precisely that.

/Carl


__________________________________________________ ___
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Busenkelt!

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[irdeggman]

Making the bard a divine caster causes many more problems than it solves. It violates the core cannon material for one, which is really beyond our ability to change. The fact that bards can wear armor while casting isn't an issue, so can wizards and sorcerers, they all suffer from the % failure for arcane casting associated with the armor. Bards just get the feats for free as starting class abilities.

In 2nd ed this wasn't a problem because ot was never addressed. Wizards just couldn't cast spells while wearing armor and bards couldn's if they wore anything about leather (or was it studded leather). This mechanic has vanished and to try to bring it back will cause nothing but problems in the future. Peole will have tremendous problems trying to mesh future D&D products with the Birthright setting if the mechanics don't mesh.

I also have trouble resolving the associating of Cuirecean with bards. He was never very artsy or storytelling oriented. More of deity of action than philosophy (something generally associated with bards).

Creating a new bard like class is a different matter, although IMO it would just complicate the current system without really adding any substantial benefit, core and whatever we come up with for Birthright. This could be done - we'd only have to resolve if it should or shouldn't be done.

[Perhelion]

First of all - Well done!
Very nice crisp presentation of our favourite setting.

As far as the 3ed clerics are concerned, I agree that I dislike the too similar priests of 3ed and am now trying (PURELY on a house rule basis) to remove automatic access to the 'generic' cleric spells and assign all spells to at least one domain. This obviously means that some domains will end up with more spells than others, and that a cleric will probably require access to more domains than at the moment, but I'll see if I can sort that out. I realise that it greatly changes the role of the cleric, and greatly reduces his versatility (e.g. most clerics won't be able to cure wounds) and magical potential, except in his domains - and that's what I am looking for. The specialisation of the clerics will mean that you will, for instance, seek out a priest(ess) of Nesirie when you require healing, a priest of Haelyn for Justice and visit Sarimie and Nesirie before setting out on a long sea voyage. As in 3ed multiclassing is so easy, it should not cripple the PC while still allowing him access to powerful albeit specialised spells.

My rather wordy 2cp...