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  1. #41
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    Originally posted by DanMcSorley
    Ranking the options, number 4 is clearly out. I don`t like the way 2
    seems to work, because I think humans should be standard.

    That leaves 1 and 3. 1 is difficult because the elves, dwarves, and
    halflings, while powerful, may or may not make the cut to ECL +1 in
    peoples` opinions.
    I agree with you on 4 it is the worst option... and 2 is problematic for balance, but not because humans would not be standard... it would be problematic because all of the races would be quite a bit more powerful than their PHB kin and thus might through off the CRs of monsters... probably by 1...

    For me 1 & 3 are the "best" options as they balance the races either through ECL or through lowering their power...

    Originally posted by DanMcSorley
    I say go with #3, cutting Pass W/O trace from the elves, the encumberance
    bonus from dwarves, and shadow sense from halflings. Maybe the DR v blunt
    from dwarves instead. That`s quick and painless, powers down the three
    races enough to seat them firmly in ECL 0, and those make bloody marvelous
    racial feats.
    Actually I would go about it the opposite way... keep the Birthright specific traits and drop the PHB traits... that way the Birthright races are not turned into Greyhawk races...

    Still gets you to the same place, but by a different route.

    Take Care,
    Joseph

  2. #42
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    On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, irdeggman wrote:
    > Daniel, there are regional (and racial) feats ala FRCS. FRCS didn`t
    > give the regional feats for free either they were just a regional
    > exclusive option.

    I know, that`s what I think BRCS should use. The human templates should
    be remoded into regional feats, and leave all humans as standard 3e humans.
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  3. #43
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    On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, jaldaen wrote:
    >
    Originally posted by DanMcSorley
    > I say go with #3, cutting Pass W/O trace from the elves, the encumberance
    > bonus from dwarves, and shadow sense from halflings. Maybe the DR v blunt
    > from dwarves instead. That`s quick and painless, powers down the three
    > races enough to seat them firmly in ECL 0, and those make bloody marvelous
    > racial feats.
    >
    >
    > Actually I would go about it the opposite way... keep the Birthright
    > specific traits and drop the PHB traits... that way the Birthright
    > races are not turned into Greyhawk races...

    What are you going to cut that`s `greyhawk`, ie standard 3e, that isn`t
    inherent to the race? From an elf, you can cut:
    -low light vision,
    -immunity to sleep, charm, and the saving throw bonus,
    -elven racial weapon profs,
    -bonus to search, spot, and listen.

    Which of these would you cut? Better to go with the 3e standard races or
    something close to it, and have the more powerful abilities available as
    racial feats. I think it works out well.
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  4. #44
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    Originally posted by DanMcSorley
    What are you going to cut that`s `greyhawk`, ie standard 3e, that isn`t
    inherent to the race? From an elf, you can cut:
    -low light vision,
    -immunity to sleep, charm, and the saving throw bonus,
    -elven racial weapon profs,
    -bonus to search, spot, and listen.

    Which of these would you cut? Better to go with the 3e standard races or
    something close to it, and have the more powerful abilities available as
    racial feats. I think it works out well.
    It is difficult to say without knowing what the actual traits were for Birthright elves originally... did they have the above standard traits?

    They probably did... and if so then you are right on that (as I just went through the races and discovered that trying to trim the PHB traits was too difficult b/c the racial traits seem to be pretty dead on with what I remember)

    In light of this I would have to say that option #1 looks more appealing (than #3) as it does not sacrifice the flavor of Birthright and uses a system that is pretty widely accepted (i.e. the ECL system)... So my belief is that the elves, dwarves, and halflings should *probably* be ECL +1 races... and that humans be given some kind of racial traits that balance out...

    Thanks,
    Joseph

  5. #45
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    Lord Shade wrote:

    >At 10:59 AM 2/7/2003 +0100, you wrote:
    >
    >I agree with your statement that the freely selectable feat is a big
    >advantage. However, I think that the freely selectable feat is the main
    >reason to be a human and that should under no circumstances be changed.
    >I think the best solution is to take away all the "extra" feats (the +1s to
    >saves and skills) and just give 1 extra class skill for "flavor." Or, how
    >about this:
    >When you choose human as your race, choose an ethnicity. You have the
    >option of getting 1 extra class skill based on your ethnicity at the cost
    >of having a fixed favored class based on your ethnicity. If you don`t want
    >the extra class skill, you can play a standard human.
    >
    >Anuirean - Favored Class: Fighter (or cleric, to be decided by the
    >listserv). Any one skill (Wis based) or Knowledge (Nobility) is always a
    >class skill for you.
    >
    The Fighter is no Wisdom based class. In 2E the Cleric and the Paladin
    would have fit, in 3E the cleric would fit as a wis based class and the
    Paladin as the embodiement of the noble warrior (Haelyn as the patron
    deity of Anuire is the god of noble war).

    >Khinasi - Favored Class: Wizard (if blooded) or Magician (if unblooded).
    >Any one skill (Int based) or Diplomacy is always a class skill for you.
    >Brecht - Favored Class: Rogue. Any one skill (Dex based) or Appraise is
    >always a class skill for you.
    >Rjurik - Favored Class: Ranger. Any one skill (Con based) or Wilderness
    >Lore is always a class skill for you.
    >Vos - Favored Class: Barbarian. Any one skill (Str based) or Intimidate is
    >always a class skill for you.
    >You may choose to be any of the above ethnicities but lose the free class
    >skill and gain the ability to have Favored Class: Any. This is equal to the
    >standard human presented in the PHB.
    >This basically gives you the exact same option that OA does: you can be a
    >1. standard human or you can be a 2. human from one of the Clans and get a
    >specific favored class and an extra class skill. However in BR, there are
    >no "non ethnic" humans; so you still call yourself an Anuirean, although
    >you are identical to the PHB human.
    >I hope this explanation is clear.
    >
    Humans are versatile and that is reflected in their extra feat and extra
    skills that are freely selectable and the favoured class: Any.
    This should in my opinion not be changed into a structure in which you
    have no choice of favoured class.

    A limited choice, balanced by more power than the standard human - that
    would sound good to me.

    However IF limited, not to only "standard human" or "Ethniciciy
    Anuirean: Cleric". As already others suggested on this list the favoured
    class, should not only be dependant on your subrace but also on your
    bloodline which has at least an equally high influence on your life.

    So everyone choosing the Birthright human over the standard human would
    have two choices if blooded: Either the cultural favoured class, or the
    bloodline favoured class: e.g. Anuirean with Azrai: Paladin/Cleric or
    Blackguard/Rogue or something like that. Brecht with Reynig bloodline:
    Rogue/Aristocrat(Guilder) Noble OR Druid/Ranger
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  6. #46
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    On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:

    > I favor option #1. Keep humans = to PHB (vanilla) or OA (flavored) humans,
    > make elf/dwarf/halfling +1 ECL.

    Personally, I think elves and dwarves should be even higher than that.

    The stat modifiers I use IMC come directly from the original BR rulebook,
    but are based not only on Table 2: Racial Ability Adjustments, but also on
    Table 1: Racial Ability Requirements.

    As seems to be the standard in going from 2e to 3e, I double the numbers
    in Table 2. Then I take the average of Table 1, subtract 10.5, and add to
    the previous result to get the total modifier.

    That gives the following transformation.


    Step One: Table 2 becomes
    Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
    Strength -2 -4
    Dexterity -4 +2 +2 +2
    Constitution +4 -2 -2
    Intelligence +2
    Wisdom +2
    Charisma

    Step Two: Table 1 starts out like
    Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
    Strength 13/18 5/18 4/18 3/18
    Dexterity 3/16 6/18 6/18 10/18
    Constitution 13/18 6/18 3/18 8/18
    Intelligence 3/18 8/18 6/18 6/18
    Wisdom 3/18 3/18 3/18 6/18
    Charisma 3/17 10/18 6/18 3/18

    Step Three: Table 1 averaged
    Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
    Strength 15.5 11.5 11 10.5
    Dexterity 9.5 12 12 14
    Constitution 15.5 12 10.5 13
    Intelligence 10.5 13 12 12
    Wisdom 10.5 10.5 10.5 12
    Charisma 10 14 12 10.5

    Step Four: Table 1 converted to modifiers by subtracting 10.5
    Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
    Strength +5 +1 +0.5 0
    Dexterity -1 +1.5 +1.5 +3.5
    Constitution +5 +1.5 0 +2.5
    Intelligence 0 +2.5 +1.5 +1.5
    Wisdom 0 0 0 +1.5
    Charisma -0.5 +3.5 +1.5 0

    Step Five: Add tables together, round away from zero
    Ability Dwarf Elf Half-Elf Halfling
    Strength +5 -1 +1 -4
    Dexterity -5 +4 +4 +6
    Constitution +9 -1 -2 +3
    Intelligence 0 +5 +2 +2
    Wisdom 0 0 0 +4
    Charisma -1 +4 +2 0

    This gives strange Str and Con values for Half-Elves (since they should
    me like averaging humans and elves, not outside the elf-human range on
    any stat), so we arbitrarily modify them to 0 and -1, respectively.


    These races are nothing like balanced, which is actually fine by me.
    I don`t use ECLs, but then I don`t run mixed-species parties, either.
    If ECLs were needed, I could easily see the dwarves and elves I`ve
    presented above being +3 each.


    Ryan Caveney

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  7. #47
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    On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, jaldaen wrote:

    > Daniel McSorley wrote:
    > > What are you going to cut that`s `greyhawk`, ie standard 3e, that
    > > isn`t inherent to the race? From an elf, you can cut:
    > > -low light vision,
    > > -immunity to sleep, charm, and the saving throw bonus,
    > > -elven racial weapon profs,
    > > -bonus to search, spot, and listen.
    >
    > It is difficult to say without knowing what the actual traits were for
    > Birthright elves originally... did they have the above standard
    > traits?

    In the BR Rulebook, elves have 90% resistance to sleep and charm, are
    unaffected by aging attacks and normal disease, have low-light vision (but
    not infravision), and never need to sleep. They don`t get +1 to hit with
    sword and bow, but do get a +4 bonus to surprise enemies when alone and
    not in metal armor. They pass without trace in natural settings and
    ignore terrain when marching.

    The remaining step in the comparison is to line up 2e PHB elves with 3e
    PHB elves; it is from this that "bow and sword to-hit -> racial weapon
    profs" and "surprise -> listen search and spot" arise.

    Personally, I think pass without trace and easy marching for Sidhelien
    definitely ought to stay.


    Ryan Caveney

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  8. #48
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    On Sat, 8 Feb 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
    > In the BR Rulebook, elves have 90% resistance to sleep and charm, are
    > unaffected by aging attacks and normal disease, have low-light vision (but
    > not infravision), and never need to sleep. They don`t get +1 to hit with
    > sword and bow, but do get a +4 bonus to surprise enemies when alone and
    > not in metal armor. They pass without trace in natural settings and
    > ignore terrain when marching.
    >
    > The remaining step in the comparison is to line up 2e PHB elves with 3e
    > PHB elves; it is from this that "bow and sword to-hit -> racial weapon
    > profs" and "surprise -> listen search and spot" arise.

    90% sleep/charm resistance (in 2e) became immunity to sleep and +2 saving
    throw bonus vs enchantment in 3e.

    No sleeping and low light vision became standard for all elves in 3e.

    > Personally, I think pass without trace and easy marching for Sidhelien
    > definitely ought to stay.

    I think all the ablities (standard 3e + setting flavor abilities) should
    be around, but if they`re all given to elves by default, they need an ECL.
    If we take away a couple and make them feats, they become ECL 0, and I
    think that`s a good thing.
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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