Re: Racial balance issues in BRCS

[jaldaen]

I was going to post this in my other thread, but realized that the idea for the following came out of this thread so I'll post it here (at least for now)...

Thanks to some researching I (think that I) have found out what the Human modifiers for Birthright were (let me know if I am missing anything):

Anuirean: +1 Wis, -1 Dex
Brecht: +1 Dex, -1 Wis
Khinasi: +1 Int, -1 Con
Rjurik: +1 Con, -1 Cha
Vos: +1 Str, -1 Int

The following are possible “flavorful, but balanced” ideas for each of these cultures:

Anuirean:

+1 Will save
+1 to Sense Motive
+1 to Administrate
-1 Reflex save
-1 to Initiative

Brecht:

+1 Reflex save
+1 to Initiative
-1 Will save
-2 to Wilderness Lore

Khinasi:

+1 to Knowledge (any one)
+1 to Appraise
-1 to Fortitude saves

Rjurik:

+1 to Fortitude saves
+1 to any checks for performing a physical action that extends over a period of time (running, swimming, hold your breath, etc).
-1 to Bluff
-1 to Diplomacy
-1 to Disguise
-1 to Gather Information

Vos:

+2 to Strength for purposes of determining carrying capacity
+2 to Strength checks (not skills).
-1 to all Knowledge skills
All Vos are considered illiterate (Barbarian Vos must spend 4 skill points to become literate instead of the normal 2 skill points).

What do you all think?

I tried to keep to benefits and drawbacks that reflect the ability score adjustments from the original and the cultures.

Note that these are for the most part very different from what is currently in the BRCS-playtest version, but I thought I would present them as an alternative to the "benefits, but no drawbacks" approach the Birthright Team has taken and the "use the PHB Human" concept that Birthright-L has put forth...

Take Care,
Joseph Miller

[Birthright-L]

From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

> For instance humans from the
> Crane clan get Diplomacy as a class skill, humans from the Scorpion clan
> get Bluff as a class skill.
>

Note that these sub-groups of humand do not get to choose their favored
class freely - it is fixed. Arguably, this makes them less powerful than
baseline humans. What is best, an extra class skill, or getting to choose
your favored class as you will?

I repeat myself - I think BR humans should get greater benefits thanbaseline
humans (say three feat equvialents), but at the price of not getting a
freely selectable feat and not getting to select their favored class.

Once humans are balanced this way, the other races can be balanced through
ECL modifiers. I don`t mind ECL for nonhumans in Cerilia at all, as I don`t
envisions players using nonhumans. Complexities involving NPCs don`t bother
me.

/Carl


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[Shade]

>Note that these sub-groups of humand do not get to choose their favored
>class freely - it is fixed. Arguably, this makes them less powerful than
>baseline humans. What is best, an extra class skill, or getting to choose
>your favored class as you will?

I think they`re about equal. Neither is significantly useful for the
majority of builds, which are primarily made up of prestige classes.

>I repeat myself - I think BR humans should get greater benefits thanbaseline
>humans (say three feat equvialents), but at the price of not getting a
>freely selectable feat and not getting to select their favored class.

Whoa. Taking away humans` extra feat is a HUGE change. This takes away the
primary advantage of being a human.

I no way can I endorse this proposed change.

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[Birthright-L]

> >I think BR humans should get greater benefits thanbaseline
> >humans (say three feat equvialents), but at the price of not getting a
> >freely selectable feat and not getting to select their favored class.

From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

> Whoa. Taking away humans` extra feat is a HUGE change. This takes away the
> primary advantage of being a human.
>
> I no way can I endorse this proposed change.
>


I`m not saying that variant humans should not get extra feats. I`m saying
that they should get MORE feats, but from a limited or fixed selection
depending on their origin.

Who much compensation these variant humans should get for their lack of
flexibility is an open matter.

In my analysis, the freely selectible favored class advantage is huge when
building characters - especially since a mix of classes usually makes
qualifying for prestige classes so much easier. And if you don`t use PrCs,
it becomes even more valuable.

But I don`t like new human sub-races that get new abilities "for nothing".



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[doom]

On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 06:16:49AM +0100, jaldaen wrote:
> I tried to keep to benefits and drawbacks that reflect the ability
> score adjustments from the original and the cultures.
>
> Note that these are for the most part very different from what is
> currently in the BRCS-playtest version, but I thought I would present
> them as an alternative to the "benefits, but no drawbacks" approach
> the Birthright Team has taken and the "use the PHB Human" concept
> that Birthright-L has put forth...

I think that it is safe to say that the "races" issues has (to date) been
the primary topic of consideration. I`d like to add a bit of direction
to this discussion to aid us in coming to a concensus as to A) If there
needs to be a change and B) What that change should be.

--- First, the history

Races were one of the first topics covered by the team (back when _we_
were stilling developing a good set of rules for interacting and making
decisions). The team conensus was that the published "extra goodies"
for Cerilian elves/dwarves/halfings did not quite equate to an ECL
(using the FRCS +1 ECL races for comparision). I am going to
oversimplify dramatically and say that we came up with a few basic
options:

Option #1: Charge Cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves an effective
level penalty and keep the humans "baseline" (i.e. with
minor "flavor adjustments" that net to zero or less than
zero). This could require "inventing" some bonuses to
make the races a "full" +1 ECL.

Option #2: NOT charge cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves with an
ECL penalty, but instead to just increase the baseline
for humans by as roughly proportionate amount. This might
require "inventing" some d20 advantages above and beyond
the "argueably balanced" +1/-1 stat mod.

Option #3: "Down grade" Cerilian dwarves, halfings, and elves to be
at baseline.

Option #4: Just ignore the difference in power level (as per 2e BR).

Clearly we chose Option #2 for the first BRCS release. Was this

--- Now what?

The races discussion is complicated by people treading lines between
these options. What is an "appropriate" bonus, whether humans should
be baseline or not, and pretty much every other decision regarding
races depends, firstly on which of the options above we wish to use as
our basic model.

Does the community at large have a strong opinion as to _which_ of
these options they find most agreeable. Yet a different option??
Unless we are in agreement as to which of these approaches is "the
best", it might be difficult to move forward and/or compare different
proposals.

- Doom

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[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Dr. Travis Doom wrote:
> Option #1: Charge Cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves an effective
> level penalty and keep the humans "baseline" (i.e. with
> minor "flavor adjustments" that net to zero or less than
> zero). This could require "inventing" some bonuses to
> make the races a "full" +1 ECL.
>
> Option #2: NOT charge cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves with an
> ECL penalty, but instead to just increase the baseline
> for humans by as roughly proportionate amount. This might
> require "inventing" some d20 advantages above and beyond
> the "argueably balanced" +1/-1 stat mod.
>
> Option #3: "Down grade" Cerilian dwarves, halfings, and elves to be
> at baseline.
>
> Clearly we chose Option #2 for the first BRCS release. Was this
>
> --- Now what?
>
> The races discussion is complicated by people treading lines between
> these options. What is an "appropriate" bonus, whether humans should
> be baseline or not, and pretty much every other decision regarding
> races depends, firstly on which of the options above we wish to use as
> our basic model.

I heard at one point that you were looking at a FRCS model of regional
feats to give flavor to humanity. What happened to that?

Ranking the options, number 4 is clearly out. I don`t like the way 2
seems to work, because I think humans should be standard.

That leaves 1 and 3. 1 is difficult because the elves, dwarves, and
halflings, while powerful, may or may not make the cut to ECL +1 in
peoples` opinions.

I say go with #3, cutting Pass W/O trace from the elves, the encumberance
bonus from dwarves, and shadow sense from halflings. Maybe the DR v blunt
from dwarves instead. That`s quick and painless, powers down the three
races enough to seat them firmly in ECL 0, and those make bloody marvelous
racial feats.

That way, the system is balanced at ECL 0 by default, and DMs who want to
power up their demihumans can just give out the appropriate feats for
free.

:)
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[irdeggman]

Daniel, there are regional (and racial) feats ala FRCS. FRCS didn't give the regional feats for free either they were just a regional exclusive option.

[Shade]

At 10:59 AM 2/7/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>> >I think BR humans should get greater benefits thanbaseline
>> >humans (say three feat equvialents), but at the price of not getting a
>> >freely selectable feat and not getting to select their favored class.
>
>From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
>
>> Whoa. Taking away humans` extra feat is a HUGE change. This takes away the
>> primary advantage of being a human.
>>
>> I no way can I endorse this proposed change.
>>
>
>
>I`m not saying that variant humans should not get extra feats. I`m saying
>that they should get MORE feats, but from a limited or fixed selection
>depending on their origin.
>
>Who much compensation these variant humans should get for their lack of
>flexibility is an open matter.
>
>In my analysis, the freely selectible favored class advantage is huge when
>building characters - especially since a mix of classes usually makes
>qualifying for prestige classes so much easier. And if you don`t use PrCs,
>it becomes even more valuable.
>
>But I don`t like new human sub-races that get new abilities "for nothing".

I agree with your statement that the freely selectable feat is a big
advantage. However, I think that the freely selectable feat is the main
reason to be a human and that should under no circumstances be changed.

I think the best solution is to take away all the "extra" feats (the +1s to
saves and skills) and just give 1 extra class skill for "flavor." Or, how
about this:

When you choose human as your race, choose an ethnicity. You have the
option of getting 1 extra class skill based on your ethnicity at the cost
of having a fixed favored class based on your ethnicity. If you don`t want
the extra class skill, you can play a standard human.

Anuirean - Favored Class: Fighter (or cleric, to be decided by the
listserv). Any one skill (Wis based) or Knowledge (Nobility) is always a
class skill for you.

Khinasi - Favored Class: Wizard (if blooded) or Magician (if unblooded).
Any one skill (Int based) or Diplomacy is always a class skill for you.

Brecht - Favored Class: Rogue. Any one skill (Dex based) or Appraise is
always a class skill for you.

Rjurik - Favored Class: Ranger. Any one skill (Con based) or Wilderness
Lore is always a class skill for you.

Vos - Favored Class: Barbarian. Any one skill (Str based) or Intimidate is
always a class skill for you.

You may choose to be any of the above ethnicities but lose the free class
skill and gain the ability to have Favored Class: Any. This is equal to the
standard human presented in the PHB.

This basically gives you the exact same option that OA does: you can be a
1. standard human or you can be a 2. human from one of the Clans and get a
specific favored class and an extra class skill. However in BR, there are
no "non ethnic" humans; so you still call yourself an Anuirean, although
you are identical to the PHB human.

I hope this explanation is clear.

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[Shade]

I favor option #1. Keep humans = to PHB (vanilla) or OA (flavored) humans,
make elf/dwarf/halfling +1 ECL.

Some suggestions on how to increase elf/dwarf/halfling abilities without
adding drastically different abilities:

Increase dwarf modifiers to +4 Con, -2 Dex.

Instead of making halflings buy feats to use their shadow abilities, give
them all for free.

Elves - this is the trickiest part. I`d say go along the lines of dwarves
and add more ability scores.. maybe +2 Dex Int Cha, -2 Str Con. This
reflects the ability of an elf to be equally proficient at being a bard,
wizard, or sorcerer.

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[jaldaen]

Originally posted by doom
Option #1: Charge Cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves an effective
level penalty and keep the humans "baseline" (i.e. with
minor "flavor adjustments" that net to zero or less than
zero). This could require "inventing" some bonuses to
make the races a "full" +1 ECL.

Pros: Takes into account the increased power of the non-human races in the Birthright CS.
Cons: ECL races are disliked by certain sectors of the gaming community. Also *might* require the addition of abilities to races that do not appear in the origianl Birthright book.

Opionion: I don't mind ECLs for the Birthright races as long as they don't exceed +2... which in my opinion none of the current BR races would reach... though they *might* be +1...

Originally posted by doom
Option #2: NOT charge cerilian dwarves, halflings, and elves with an
ECL penalty, but instead to just increase the baseline
for humans by as roughly proportionate amount. This might
require "inventing" some d20 advantages above and beyond
the "argueably balanced" +1/-1 stat mod.

Pros: This provides a nice "self contained" balance.

Cons: Birthright characters would be much more powerful than their peers in other settings and as such cross campaign setting adventures would be problematic. MM monsters are balanced toward the "baseline" PHB races and so Birthright characters would technically have a slight upper hand on them from a technical POV. Also *might* require the addition of abilities to humans that do not appear in the origianl Birthright book or even reflect the original concepts.

Opinion: This approach is fine, but as noted above cross campaign setting adventures would be quite problematic as Birthright characters would be more powerful than normal. Monsters also are at a *slight* disadvatage as the races are more powerful. Thus CRs might need amending (which is actually a good idea for any unique setting to look at).

Originally posted by doom
Option #3: "Down grade" Cerilian dwarves, halfings, and elves to be
at baseline.

Pros: Makes cross campaign setting adventures possible and does not give the Birthright characters a *slight* upperhand against standard monsters.

Cons: Takes away from the flavor of Birthright.

Opinion: Not my favorite option as it takes away from the setting... though actually if you were to take away the PHB benefits first perhaps you could lower them to the "baseline" without sacrificng any of the Birthright flavor... hmmm this might be worth a try...

Originally posted by doom
Option #4: Just ignore the difference in power level (as per 2e BR).

Clearly we chose Option #2 for the first BRCS release. Was this

Pros: Less work.

Cons: No balance.

Opinion: Not good ;-)

I can see that you chose Option #2 and it is not a bad option, my only observation is that perhaps you might have used the Birthright +1/-1 stats as a "stricter" guideline... still I think you did a decent job at putting together the human cultural traits.

Originally posted by doom
--- Now what?

Does the community at large have a strong opinion as to _which_ of
these options they find most agreeable. Yet a different option??
Unless we are in agreement as to which of these approaches is "the
best", it might be difficult to move forward and/or compare different
proposals.

- Doom

I find option 1 and 2 the most appealing, but option 3 done right might be even better... option 4 is not really a good option at all...

If you take a look at my race thread you'll find an approach that would fit best with option 1... one that gives the humans cultural traits that "balance" each other out and provide flavor that is (IMHO) consistant with the benefits from the original.

Take Care,
Joseph