No monks?

[Shade]

I second this. I don`t think monks fit the `flavor` of Cerilia in any way,
and I`m glad the BR team decided not to include them.

At 10:19 AM 2/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>I loathe monks. I`m thrilled they`re not included.
>
>
>Ryan Caveney
>
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[irdeggman]

There was much discussion about including goblins and orogs as player classes in the initial proposal. It was decided that their use would be extremely limited and it wasn't worth the effort to include them as viable player races.

This was only for the initial development, this doesn't mean that this can't be changed it was just a matter of bang-for-the-buck at the initial development stage. Looking at the previews of 3.5 there will be more details forthcoming on how to use monster races for player character. My personal recommendation would be to sit on this one and wait for the 3.5 details to come out and then revisit it then, if the community expresses a desire to.

[Birthright-L]

They may be a really good class, and a feature in 3e; but remember this is a
campaign specific world....I don`t think Monks fit here either. If you want
a martial artist, make a fighter and take feats. Monks of Cerilia should
be, for the most part, NPCs who are either cleric/specialists who devote
their life to religious knowledge, or simple specialists. But that is just
my opinion. You can always just place monks in your own campaign.

Tony






----Original Message Follows----
From: Azrai <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

Azrai wrote:
So here is one vote to include the monks in the game, since they are an
elementary part of the 3. Edition !

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[Malice3679]

> You can have a vote from me too.
>
> I can`t think of a reason not to include them; arguing along the lines of
"not in the original material" excludes sorcerers, barbarians etc.
>
> They may not be the most common class, but they deserve to be included.

Barbarians were certainly there...at least, they were there as much as
barbarians were anywhere in 2e before the Barbarians handbook came out.

The Vos fellas were chock-full of barbaric fun.

Tommy

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[Lord Grave]

>
> Well...I`m pretty sure the Rjurik could be rangers and the
> Vos fighters; and the elves fitting the sorcerer "perfectly"?
> Why is that; they were wizards in 2E (to me they always
> seemed more like druids than sorcerers anyway) same as other
> users of true magic.

Fighters, with their access to the bonus feats, symbolize more organized
fighting style, with balance of offense and defense, strength and skill.
While I am sure that there are many Vos Fighters, Barbarians perfectly
fit the description of Vos worshipping berzerkers. Humanoids are also
fitting for Barbarians. Rjurik more or less, but I`d rather make
majority of them Rangers as you say.

The Sorcerers fit Elves perfectly because Elves have inborn ability to
cast the spells(don`t need bloodline), which is exactly how Sorcerers
cast spells. In ItSoD2, I allow Elves to become both Sorcerers and
Wizard, but other races can become only Wizards and only if they are
Blooded.

>
> Still, I suppose that the monk is a little less easily
> incorporated in BR, but it can be done; and to good effect.
> If you just forget the word `ki` the class is quite cool. Why
> can`t there be Monk of Rilni practicing their mystical arts
> in the great temple, guarding it against those who would see
> the Five Oaths destroyed. Or wandering dervishes, roaming the
> Tarvan Waste and beyound, worshipping their godess by
> thempering their bodies under Her harsh gaze. Well, these are
> just two ideas. Give the monk a chance :-)
>

Well, I`d rather make that Cloistered Cleric/Wizard or Druid/Wizard
combination than do that to the Monks. The original Monks have been
balanced with the other classes, and removing some abilities from them
would require adding new abilities to keep the balance, which would
require lots of time, effort and playtesting.

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[Lord Grave]

>
> On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Green Knight wrote:
> > I can`t think of a reason not to include them; arguing
> along the lines
> > of "not in the original material" excludes sorcerers,
> barbarians etc.
>
> They don`t fit the setting. Not that they weren`t in the
> rules, but that there aren`t any cultures which would produce
> such beasts.

Well, neither do they fit in basic Fogotten Realms, in Faerun, but they
were included because of commercial reasons. Good thing BRCS is not
commercial.

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[Lord Grave]

> > Azrai wrote:
> > So here is one vote to include the monks in the game,
> since they are
> > an elementary part of the 3. Edition !
>
> Certainly we (as a community) can vote to do anything that we
> want. I would note, however, that the same arguement can be
> made about gnomes. Gnomes are an elementary part of 3e. Does
> that mean that they should be included in Cerilia? Both
> monks and gnomes were about in 2e.. but the orignal
> developers made a concious effort to drop both of them from
> the setting. It would seem to be unwise to not follow their
> direction in this matter.
>

Well, you already have the Manni`s Gnomish Submarine warcard, and there
is a way to acquire it in Berhagen-Zikala Rally adventure. What more do
you need? Place them in Thaele for example? ;-)

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Milos Rasic wrote:

> The Sorcerers fit Elves perfectly because Elves have inborn ability to
> cast the spells (don`t need bloodline), which is exactly how Sorcerers
> cast spells.

True as far as it goes, except for one fatal flaw: the absurdly low limit
on total number of spells a sorcerer may know. After a few thousand years
doing magic as naturally as walking, there ought to be almost no limit to
the variety of different things a Sidhe has learned to accomplish with
magic. Sure, casting unprepared from Charisma sounds fine for Sidhelien,
but knowing fewer than ten spells of each level is just completely wrong.


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Milos Rasic" <mrasic@TEHNICOM.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Sv: Re: No monks? [36#1261]


> >
> > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Green Knight wrote:
> > > I can`t think of a reason not to include them; arguing
> > along the lines
> > > of "not in the original material" excludes sorcerers,
> > barbarians etc.
> >
> > They don`t fit the setting. Not that they weren`t in the
> > rules, but that there aren`t any cultures which would produce
> > such beasts.
>
> Well, neither do they fit in basic Fogotten Realms, in Faerun, but they
> were included because of commercial reasons. Good thing BRCS is not
> commercial.
>


I agree. I don`t like 3E, but removing Monks is a step in the right
direction to me for Birthright d20..)

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> True as far as it goes, except for one fatal flaw: the absurdly low limit
> on total number of spells a sorcerer may know. After a few thousand years
> doing magic as naturally as walking, there ought to be almost no limit to
> the variety of different things a Sidhe has learned to accomplish with
> magic. Sure, casting unprepared from Charisma sounds fine for Sidhelien,
> but knowing fewer than ten spells of each level is just completely wrong.

Besides which, humans learned true magic from the elves. They should cast
true magic the same way.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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