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Thread: No monks?

  1. #11
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    On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Green Knight wrote:
    > I can`t think of a reason not to include them; arguing along the lines
    > of "not in the original material" excludes sorcerers, barbarians etc.

    They don`t fit the setting. Not that they weren`t in the rules, but that
    there aren`t any cultures which would produce such beasts.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  2. #12
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    As previously noted, monks weren't included for flavor reasons. As also previously noted, it should not be hard to include them, should you wish to do so; I see several options for doing so already presented. Another would be to use the "far-off lands" option; there are other continents with different cultures on Aebrynis that may have monks.

    On a personal note, one of the reasons that I find Birthright is great is because of the fact that it *didn't* include everything - a campaign setting like Forgotten Realms, while superficially similar, does the opposite, and seems to make an effort to stuff everything in. The core of Birthright did not include such options as psionics, most of the kits made for 2e, many monsters were deemed too "weird," and so on - the decision on monks were based on this precedence.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  3. #13
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    On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 02:55:26PM +0100, Azrai wrote:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1261
    >
    > Azrai wrote:
    > So here is one vote to include the monks in the game, since they are
    > an elementary part of the 3. Edition !

    Certainly we (as a community) can vote to do anything that we want. I
    would note, however, that the same arguement can be made about gnomes.
    Gnomes are an elementary part of 3e. Does that mean that they should
    be included in Cerilia? Both monks and gnomes were about in 2e.. but
    the orignal developers made a concious effort to drop both of them from
    the setting. It would seem to be unwise to not follow their direction in
    this matter.

    - Doom

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  4. #14
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    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
    it should not be hard to include them, should you wish to do so.
    Thats not an argument. This way a game would be totally optional, one could also exclude all other classes and add whatever each campaign needs....


    As I previously said, monks are not necessarily connected to some oriental setting. Take a look at Salvatores "Demonwar" Saga. These monks are typical middle-age-monks. A quarterstaff instead of a shurikan will make it. Also consider the greek sparta-warriors.

    In the Forgotten Realms many religions have monks. If you have some bruce lee's in mind, you have the wrong picture.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  5. #15
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    @ Doom:

    That's wrong what you say. Gnomes are listed in the monster-list of the official rules and therefore I see no reason not to take them into account.

    I can't remember any statement of the developers that monks are not element of Birthright.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  6. #16
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    If someone wanted to play a monk who had arrived from a distant land in a
    BR campaign I don`t think I`d object to that, but the character class
    described in 3e (and in 1e before that) doesn`t strike me (pun) as being
    very Cerilian. One could certainly posit a small, hidden enclave of people
    in various Cerilian regions where monks study/train, but that addition is
    rather specific and outside the scope of what one normally considers the
    basis for a core class. None of that even has anything to do with the
    goofiness of the class, and how extensively it would need to be changed for
    BR purposes, so to me it would seem to be a lot of text added to a BR
    document for a limited amount of payoff.

    Gary

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  7. #17
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    > As I previously said, monks are not necessarily connected to some oriental
    setting. Take a look at Salvatores "Demonwar" Saga. These monks are
    typical
    > middle-age-monks. A quarterstaff instead of a shurikan will make it. Also
    consider the greek sparta-warriors.

    I fail to see your argument here. I fail to see how the "Monk" Class is
    anything similar to a monks from the History.

    Quoting the PHB description of the class,

    "They train themselves to be versitile warriors skilled at fighting without
    weapons or armor."
    "Though monks don`t cast spells, they have a magic of their own. They
    channel a subtle energy, called ki."
    "A monk`s training is her spiritual path. She is innerdirected, capable of
    a private, mystic connection to the spiritual world. She needs neither
    clerics nor gods."

    This does not at all correlate to the midevil monk pouring over dusty tomes
    and preserving ancient lore. The problem here is that this class is in fact
    an eastern styled martial artist class. While it may not be as full flung
    eastern as say a ninja or samuri, it does not mesh well into the five
    regions of Cerilia where the vast majority of birthright campaigns take
    place. These areas are based on cultures that did not have *chi wielding
    karate masters*.

    Change the shurikan to the quarter staff and you still have a martial artist
    styled class. A quarterstaff is just a renamed bo staff. Still martial
    artist in a handbag.

    -Anakin
    *sick, tired and exhausted*

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    Who are you to speak to me of loneliness, you who have not suffered as I have suffered. My father was lord of the Andu, ruler of a million souls, but not once did he ever claim me as his son. All those years I waited for a single word from him, a simple acknowledgment of my birthright. But, not even on his death bed did he claim me as his. So do not speak to me of your loneliness, you who have never been as alone as I have been all my life.

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  8. #18
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    On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 06:06:13PM +0100, Azrai wrote:
    > As I previously said, monks are not necessarily connected to some
    > oriental setting. Take a look at Salvatores "Demonwar" Saga. These
    > monks are typical middle-age-monks. A quarterstaff instead of a
    > shurikan will make it. Also consider the greek sparta-warriors.
    >
    > In the Forgotten Realms many religions have monks. If you have some
    > bruce lee`s in mind, you have the wrong picture.

    This may, indead, be the source of the disagreement. The "monk class"
    is very mystic and unavoidably "Bruce Lee"-like. They are "balanced"
    to be relatively equivalent to characters of equal level with default
    magic items (this alone causes has significant potential implication in
    a low-magic item availablity campaign). The 3e monk class creates
    characters that move at remarkable rates of speed, that can do more
    damage with their open hands than they can with a sword, can inflict
    damage on creatures immune to normal weapons, and who are capable of
    travelling via dimention door as a learned ability.

    I would argue that the "Monks" of greek sparta-warrior variety or
    middle-aged monk variety are fighters (or members of other classes)
    that have taken Improved Unarmed Strike (and perhaps similar
    appropriate feats). Such a character could, indeed, be very
    appropriate in the setting.


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  9. #19
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    Azrai wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1261
    >
    > Azrai wrote:
    > @ Doom:
    >
    >That`s wrong what you say. Gnomes are listed in the monster-list of the official rules and therefore I see no reason not to take them into account.
    >
    >I can`t remember any statement of the developers that monks are not element of Birthright.
    >
    >
    >
    Neither can I remember anywhere they said that barbarians was a PC class
    in 2e BR either
    but that doesn`t mean it is inapproriate for BR. The fact that gnomes is
    listed on the monster
    list and NOT in the PC generation part early in the rulebook says quite
    clearly that gnomes
    are not intended as a PC class !!

    Sindre

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  10. #20
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    I want to vote for a monk too. I don't think they always should be seen as "Bruce Lee" ones. IMO in Khinasi may exist monk orders of Avani (because she is LN it is ideal for monks). Monk orders could further save knowledge (a little bit different from wizard librarys). So why shouldn't they be included, the 3rd Edition gave them an own class (so give them at least a PrC)...

    Yes, Gnomes are listed on the monster list, but...: Why no statistics for Gnomes, Goblins (Hobgoblins, Bugbears), Gnolles and Half-Orogs? They would be pretty good as player characters...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

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