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Thread: No monks?
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02-05-2003, 04:17 PM #11
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On Wed, 5 Feb 2003, Green Knight wrote:
> I can`t think of a reason not to include them; arguing along the lines
> of "not in the original material" excludes sorcerers, barbarians etc.
They don`t fit the setting. Not that they weren`t in the rules, but that
there aren`t any cultures which would produce such beasts.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
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02-05-2003, 04:45 PM #12
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As previously noted, monks weren't included for flavor reasons. As also previously noted, it should not be hard to include them, should you wish to do so; I see several options for doing so already presented. Another would be to use the "far-off lands" option; there are other continents with different cultures on Aebrynis that may have monks.
On a personal note, one of the reasons that I find Birthright is great is because of the fact that it *didn't* include everything - a campaign setting like Forgotten Realms, while superficially similar, does the opposite, and seems to make an effort to stuff everything in. The core of Birthright did not include such options as psionics, most of the kits made for 2e, many monsters were deemed too "weird," and so on - the decision on monks were based on this precedence.Jan E. Juvstad.
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02-05-2003, 04:57 PM #13
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On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 02:55:26PM +0100, Azrai wrote:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1261
>
> Azrai wrote:
> So here is one vote to include the monks in the game, since they are
> an elementary part of the 3. Edition !
Certainly we (as a community) can vote to do anything that we want. I
would note, however, that the same arguement can be made about gnomes.
Gnomes are an elementary part of 3e. Does that mean that they should
be included in Cerilia? Both monks and gnomes were about in 2e.. but
the orignal developers made a concious effort to drop both of them from
the setting. It would seem to be unwise to not follow their direction in
this matter.
- Doom
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02-05-2003, 05:06 PM #14
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Originally posted by Mark_Aurel
it should not be hard to include them, should you wish to do so.
As I previously said, monks are not necessarily connected to some oriental setting. Take a look at Salvatores "Demonwar" Saga. These monks are typical middle-age-monks. A quarterstaff instead of a shurikan will make it. Also consider the greek sparta-warriors.
In the Forgotten Realms many religions have monks. If you have some bruce lee's in mind, you have the wrong picture.my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....
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02-05-2003, 05:09 PM #15
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@ Doom:
That's wrong what you say. Gnomes are listed in the monster-list of the official rules and therefore I see no reason not to take them into account.
I can't remember any statement of the developers that monks are not element of Birthright.my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....
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02-05-2003, 05:43 PM #16
If someone wanted to play a monk who had arrived from a distant land in a
BR campaign I don`t think I`d object to that, but the character class
described in 3e (and in 1e before that) doesn`t strike me (pun) as being
very Cerilian. One could certainly posit a small, hidden enclave of people
in various Cerilian regions where monks study/train, but that addition is
rather specific and outside the scope of what one normally considers the
basis for a core class. None of that even has anything to do with the
goofiness of the class, and how extensively it would need to be changed for
BR purposes, so to me it would seem to be a lot of text added to a BR
document for a limited amount of payoff.
Gary
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02-05-2003, 06:00 PM #17
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> As I previously said, monks are not necessarily connected to some oriental
setting. Take a look at Salvatores "Demonwar" Saga. These monks are
typical
> middle-age-monks. A quarterstaff instead of a shurikan will make it. Also
consider the greek sparta-warriors.
I fail to see your argument here. I fail to see how the "Monk" Class is
anything similar to a monks from the History.
Quoting the PHB description of the class,
"They train themselves to be versitile warriors skilled at fighting without
weapons or armor."
"Though monks don`t cast spells, they have a magic of their own. They
channel a subtle energy, called ki."
"A monk`s training is her spiritual path. She is innerdirected, capable of
a private, mystic connection to the spiritual world. She needs neither
clerics nor gods."
This does not at all correlate to the midevil monk pouring over dusty tomes
and preserving ancient lore. The problem here is that this class is in fact
an eastern styled martial artist class. While it may not be as full flung
eastern as say a ninja or samuri, it does not mesh well into the five
regions of Cerilia where the vast majority of birthright campaigns take
place. These areas are based on cultures that did not have *chi wielding
karate masters*.
Change the shurikan to the quarter staff and you still have a martial artist
styled class. A quarterstaff is just a renamed bo staff. Still martial
artist in a handbag.
-Anakin
*sick, tired and exhausted*
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with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.Who are you to speak to me of loneliness, you who have not suffered as I have suffered. My father was lord of the Andu, ruler of a million souls, but not once did he ever claim me as his son. All those years I waited for a single word from him, a simple acknowledgment of my birthright. But, not even on his death bed did he claim me as his. So do not speak to me of your loneliness, you who have never been as alone as I have been all my life.
- Prince Raesene Andu, -2 HC.
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02-05-2003, 06:00 PM #18
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On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 06:06:13PM +0100, Azrai wrote:
> As I previously said, monks are not necessarily connected to some
> oriental setting. Take a look at Salvatores "Demonwar" Saga. These
> monks are typical middle-age-monks. A quarterstaff instead of a
> shurikan will make it. Also consider the greek sparta-warriors.
>
> In the Forgotten Realms many religions have monks. If you have some
> bruce lee`s in mind, you have the wrong picture.
This may, indead, be the source of the disagreement. The "monk class"
is very mystic and unavoidably "Bruce Lee"-like. They are "balanced"
to be relatively equivalent to characters of equal level with default
magic items (this alone causes has significant potential implication in
a low-magic item availablity campaign). The 3e monk class creates
characters that move at remarkable rates of speed, that can do more
damage with their open hands than they can with a sword, can inflict
damage on creatures immune to normal weapons, and who are capable of
travelling via dimention door as a learned ability.
I would argue that the "Monks" of greek sparta-warrior variety or
middle-aged monk variety are fighters (or members of other classes)
that have taken Improved Unarmed Strike (and perhaps similar
appropriate feats). Such a character could, indeed, be very
appropriate in the setting.
________
/. Doom@cs.wright.edu
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02-05-2003, 06:00 PM #19
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Azrai wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1261
>
> Azrai wrote:
> @ Doom:
>
>That`s wrong what you say. Gnomes are listed in the monster-list of the official rules and therefore I see no reason not to take them into account.
>
>I can`t remember any statement of the developers that monks are not element of Birthright.
>
>
>
Neither can I remember anywhere they said that barbarians was a PC class
in 2e BR either
but that doesn`t mean it is inapproriate for BR. The fact that gnomes is
listed on the monster
list and NOT in the PC generation part early in the rulebook says quite
clearly that gnomes
are not intended as a PC class !!
Sindre
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02-05-2003, 06:51 PM #20
I want to vote for a monk too. I don't think they always should be seen as "Bruce Lee" ones. IMO in Khinasi may exist monk orders of Avani (because she is LN it is ideal for monks). Monk orders could further save knowledge (a little bit different from wizard librarys). So why shouldn't they be included, the 3rd Edition gave them an own class (so give them at least a PrC)...
Yes, Gnomes are listed on the monster list, but...: Why no statistics for Gnomes, Goblins (Hobgoblins, Bugbears), Gnolles and Half-Orogs? They would be pretty good as player characters...May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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