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  1. #1
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    I kind of like the way the Rule (province and holding) actions are set up,
    with costs in GBs and escalating DCs, rather than a cost in GB and RP and
    a set DC. It supports unblooded regents straight out of the box.

    However, there`s an off-by-one error in the descriptions. The DCs of Rule
    are "10+ current level". It should be 10+ target level. Likewise the
    cost for Rule Province should be GB equal to target level instead of
    current level. Otherwise, it costs 0 GB to rule a province to level 1,
    and 1 RP less than it should to do either Rule variation.

    I need to reread the RP collection rules, but with two tables and a
    lengthy explanation, it`s worse than the original rules; the net result
    seems to be that most characters will get 60% RP at 1st level and 100%
    from second level on for the holding associated with their class. That`s
    a lot of work for not much result. Better to do it directly by class, I
    think, and just introduce a `primary class` rule of some type to deal with
    3e multiclassing.

    GB collection and maintenance isn`t better than the old way. For one,
    where are the random GB tables? Constant income is a house-rulism, and
    should be the variation. For two, you ditched holding and province
    maintenance, which required very little recordkeeping, and replaced it
    with directly maintaining assets, which requires a lot.

    I`ll articulate those better tomorrow, but it`s 3 am and I`m going to
    sleep.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  2. #2
    Member lord_arioch's Avatar
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    Two questions

    Regarding the ships.

    1) Were the Serpent galleys and tower ships intentionally left out?

    2) I do not understand why a galleon would be outfitted with a ram. A galleon's source of power is sails, you cannot backwater with sails. A galleon that rammed a ship would risk sinking with its victim because it cannot dislodge its ram?

    Overall, a much anticipated release, excellent work.
    To each, his own.

  3. #3
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    On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 10:03:33AM +0100, lord_arioch wrote:
    > Regarding the ships.
    >
    > 1) Were the Serpent galleys and tower ships intentionally left out?

    Not intentionally. All of the ships in "Seas of Cerilia" were included.
    Including all material from the PS books was beyond the scope of the draft.
    Feel free to spec them out and post `em!

    > 2) I do not understand why a galleon would be outfitted with a ram. A
    > galleon`s source of power is sails, you cannot backwater with sails. A
    > galleon that rammed a ship would risk sinking with its victim because
    > it cannot dislodge its ram?

    Traditionally, most naval battles are fought under "oared" power. Sails
    and rigging are easily fouled or destroyed by shot/pitch and ships under
    sail are not capable of the maneuverability and quick bursts of speed
    necessary for naval ramming/boarding. Anuirean galleons are rowed in
    combat and thus have the necessary ability to backwater.

    Interestingly, according the the pictures in "Seas of Cerilia", the
    Anuirean galley`s ram is _very_ high above the waterline (which makes
    it of very limited use). This is probably an artistic interpretation
    (based on ships from the gunpower era) rather than a historically
    appropriate design for a fighting ship pre-gunpowder.

    - Doom

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  4. #4
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    Dr. Travis Doom wrote:

    >On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 10:03:33AM +0100, lord_arioch wrote:
    >
    >>Regarding the ships.
    >>
    >>1) Were the Serpent galleys and tower ships intentionally left out?
    >>
    >
    > Not intentionally. All of the ships in "Seas of Cerilia" were included.
    > Including all material from the PS books was beyond the scope of the draft.
    > Feel free to spec them out and post `em!
    >
    >>2) I do not understand why a galleon would be outfitted with a ram. A
    >>galleon`s source of power is sails, you cannot backwater with sails. A
    >>galleon that rammed a ship would risk sinking with its victim because
    >>
    >>it cannot dislodge its ram?
    >>
    Which is described in Dragon Magazine in the Weapons of the Waves
    article which gave a history of naval warfare in Cerilia.

    >Traditionally, most naval battles are fought under "oared" power. Sails
    > and rigging are easily fouled or destroyed by shot/pitch and ships under
    > sail are not capable of the maneuverability and quick bursts of speed
    > necessary for naval ramming/boarding. Anuirean galleons are rowed in
    > combat and thus have the necessary ability to backwater.
    >Interestingly, according the the pictures in "Seas of Cerilia", the
    > Anuirean galley`s ram is _very_ high above the waterline (which makes
    > it of very limited use). This is probably an artistic interpretation
    > (based on ships from the gunpower era) rather than a historically
    > appropriate design for a fighting ship pre-gunpowder.
    >- Doom
    >
    Is that truly a RAM? I thought it was just a figure head. Why then would
    the ship with the highest boarding value of the normal ships try to sink
    an enemy by ramming instead of grappling and boarding?
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  5. #5
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    Galleons were oared??? When was this? I knew Galleys were oared; but in
    the original boxed set the Anuirean Galleon is a very tall ship suited to
    having broadsides of Ballista (flaming or rope hooked to tear sails) as well
    as catapult crested fore and aft castles. It was NOT a ramming vessel...no
    Galleon ever was that I can think of....even though the Galleon is a
    decendant of the Galley, it didn`t have oars. They even had to be towed out
    of some harbors.

    While ancient naval battles were fought under oar power; by the time of the
    Renaisance(sp?) that was rarely the case. Also, the Anuirean and Khinasi
    are supposed to represent that period of cultural developement as it says in
    the original boxed set.

    I know that the Arabic navies almost NEVER rammed enemy ships; but boarding
    was VERY common.

    I guess, though, that it is indeed hard to do something like model Galleons
    and Dhows after their earthly counterparts when you can`t use gunpowder;
    which both of these ships were designed to carry.


    Tony

    ----Original Message Follows----
    From: "Dr. Travis Doom" <doom@CS.WRIGHT.EDU>

    Traditionally, most naval battles are fought under "oared" power. Sails
    and rigging are easily fouled or destroyed by shot/pitch and ships under
    sail are not capable of the maneuverability and quick bursts of speed
    necessary for naval ramming/boarding. Anuirean galleons are rowed in combat
    and thus have the necessary ability to backwater.

    Interestingly, according the the pictures in "Seas of Cerilia", the Anuirean
    galley`s ram is _very_ high above the waterline (which makes it of very
    limited use). This is probably an artistic interpretation based on ships
    from the gunpower era) rather than a historically appropriate design for a
    fighting ship pre-gunpowder.

    - Doom

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  6. #6
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    On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 08:29:31PM -0500, Anthony Edwards wrote:
    > Galleons were oared??? When was this? I knew Galleys were oared; but in
    > the original boxed set the Anuirean Galleon is a very tall ship suited to

    Opps. You are totally correct. I mixed up my Galleys and my
    Galleons. (A naval expert I am not...)

    - Doom

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  7. #7
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    There is much confusion over naval terms.

    The Venetians used something whose name is often translated as Galleon, and
    which was really a big galley. At about the same time, the Spanish were
    developing what is more commonly known as the galleon, the big, round ship
    featured in pirate movies, and this one is more properly called a galleon.
    The Spanish galleon is for the high seas, and could perhaps be paddled if
    becalmed, but certainly fought under sail. The Venetian ship always fought
    under oars, using the sails for transportation only.

    Those two ships were made for two different seas - the Mediterranian and the
    Atlantic. The Mediterranean is often becalmed, and rarely has severe storms
    or high waves. Gales are common, but not that severe. The Atlantic is much
    wilder, and even a calm day on the Atlantic is likely to have too much swell
    to make rowing efficient.

    The ship pictured on the warcard for the Auineran Galleon certainly seems to
    be the Spanish variant, and so should fight under sail. What looks like a
    ram is really a construction sheltering the bowsprout and which contains the
    ship`s toilet facilities.

    The only galleons in Birthright are those used by the serpent. And he
    navigates in an archipellago, where conditions are probably much calmer than
    in the seas around Anuire. Rjurik/Viking ships rowed on rivers and sometimes
    on the Baltic Sea, and for landing operations, but rarely on the north sea.
    And they cannot be termed galleys proper, since they never used ramming
    tactics.



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  8. #8
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    I find the entire idea of sailing ships with rams laughable, and the effort to explain this away with galleons and (presumably) caravels having oars for combat propulsion even worse.

    The galley and its like were designed from the ground up to be a rammer; long but slim, to be able to acheive high speed under oar, and flexible and tough enough to survive the impact. Sailing ships have none of these.

    Sailing ships have other advantages over rowed galleys, including much greater operational range and higher seaworthiness, but that is another baby altogether...

    Have mercy and remove the rams!

    Cheers
    Bj°rn

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  9. #9
    Member lord_arioch's Avatar
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    This thread explains my initial confusion. My understanding of naval warfare prior to the invention of gunpowder weapons was boarding actions. ships would grapple each other and their marines would fight it out. This would explain why Caravels, galleons, longships, knarrs and zebecs would not be outfitted with rams. Their main weapon would be their marines then their artillery.
    One would think that if a galleon went up against a galley that the galley would win because of its maneuverability. That is not neccessarily so. I recall reading about France building galleasses(?) to battle English caravels (or similar ships). The caravels battered the galleasses.
    Perhaps the Galley and the Drakkar (because I am not familiar with the drakkar) should be the only ships with rams.?
    To each, his own.

  10. #10
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    Stephen Starfox wrote:

    >There is much confusion over naval terms.
    >The Venetians used something whose name is often translated as Galleon, and
    >which was really a big galley. At about the same time, the Spanish were
    >developing what is more commonly known as the galleon, the big, round ship
    >featured in pirate movies, and this one is more properly called a galleon.
    >The Spanish galleon is for the high seas, and could perhaps be paddled if
    >becalmed, but certainly fought under sail. The Venetian ship always fought
    >under oars, using the sails for transportation only.
    >
    Or in german it┤s easier to hold apart: The oared ship is the "Galeere",
    the sail ship is the "Galleone" :-)
    bye
    Michael Romes

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