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  1. #1
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    I posted the following on the 3e minmax boards. It`s an example of how to
    make something as strong as possible within specific roleplaying-related
    guidelines.

    IMO this is how minmaxing is meant to be done - come up with a concept
    first, and then optimize that concept as much as possible.

    http://boards.wizards.com/community/ultima...pic;f=271;t=003
    656

    ------
    I wanted to get some people`s thoughts on a campaign-specific build.

    In the BR setting, Eloele, Goddess of Thieves, closely resembles the GH god
    Olimmadara. Eloele`s favored weapon is Dagger, and her domains include
    Illusion (FR), Darkness (FR), Night (custom, adds hide, move and something
    else as class skills), Trickery, and Chaos. Prestige domains include
    Celerity, and Mysticism.

    Eloele has a secret society of female warriors that pay homage to her. I am
    trying to come up with stats/build for these female warriors.

    I was just wondering what classes and PrCs would be good for characters
    like this. Fighter, rogue, cleric, duelist, templar and temple raider of
    Olimmadara all seem appropriate. I don`t know what kind of feat progression
    or level build would be best. A level of Urban Ranger might be appropriate
    as well, but I`m leaning against it, because the Favored Enemy thing
    doesn`t fit too well.

    I was thinking something like this -

    Rog1
    Rog1/Fig1
    Rog2/Fig1
    Rog2/Fig2
    Rog3/Fig2
    Rog3/Fig2/Temple Raider1

    Since there will be more than 1 of this NPC in my campaign, I`d like to put
    together a generic build that I can use for all the NPCs. Like a level 3
    character, a level 5, etc.

    Feats - probably darkness ones like blindfight. Improved Initiative and
    Weapon Focus in dagger would be good as well. I want them to use a real
    kind of sword, but not sure what.. probably longsword or rapier. Race will
    be Human, of Vos, Anuirean, and Brecht ethnicity. Dodge will be a good one
    too, and after that I am at a loss.

    -------next post--------

    Other feats I`m looking at - weapon finesse, endurance (for templar),
    dodge, mobility, spring attack, ambi, TWF, twin sword style (using dagger
    and rapier most likely), expertise, and possibly some ranged feats: PS,
    PBS, and Rapid Shot. Along with blindfight, Imp Init, Weapon Focus, and
    maybe Blooded.. how to make it all fit??

    They are primarily sneaky warriors, but I want them to have some
    spellcasting, whether through cleric or a PrC, I don`t know.

    [edit]

    Ok, I thought about it some more. Urban Ranger for these characters does
    not have a Favored Enemy -

    Rog1 Dodge, WF: Dagger or Rapier
    Rog1/Rgr1 Ambidex, TWF, Shadow
    Rog1/Rgr1/Ftr1 Twin Sword Style, Mobility
    Rog2/Rgr1/Ftr1
    Rog2/Rgr1/Ftr2 weapon finesse???
    Rog3/Rgr1/Ftr2 Spring Attack (if duelist) or Endurance (if Templar)
    Rog3/Rgr1/Ftr2/Temple Raider1 (domains Darkness and one other.. which is
    best for a melee combatant?)

    After this I am at a loss. Take a level of templar, or advance Temple
    Raider, or Duelist? Or just take more levels of Fighter or Rogue?

    I am looking for something a little more combat-heavy than the Rgr/Rog
    build. Also how to get the most out of the fact that Eloele`s favored
    weapon is dagger?

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  2. #2
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    Lord Shade wrote:

    >Feats - probably darkness ones like blindfight. Improved Initiative and
    >Weapon Focus in dagger would be good as well. I want them to use a real
    >kind of sword, but not sure what.. probably longsword or rapier. Race will
    >be Human, of Vos, Anuirean, and Brecht ethnicity. Dodge will be a good one
    >too, and after that I am at a loss.
    >
    Have you read the article in Dragon Magazine 240 about the Guild of
    Thieves (Elas Quick Fingers Temple and Guild)?
    You might find some interesting facts in that article about Eloele/Ela
    and her followers.

    Longsword, and any other martial weapon, in my opinion would NOT be what
    Eloele prefers. She is the godess of stealth and darkness and not
    without reason is her favoured weapon the dagger. Espeacially the
    longsword, as the symbol of Haelyn the god of justice and laws I could
    see as despised by any follower of Eloele!

    Perhaps the picture of a fighter swinging swords in both hands is what
    seemingly all people want to see (Legolas? Drizzt?)
    it is not my view as the ideal of Eloeles follower.

    If you REALLY can´t live without them wielding better weapons as a
    dagger then copy and modify the "Sun Blade" from the DMG and rename it
    "Moon Blade" for followers of Ruornil or "Shadow Blade" for followers of
    Eloele... It is a magical weapon that can be wielded by anyone who is
    proficient in shortsword (=rogue) and is in battle actually a bastard
    sword - however I advise you to not do this. Eloele does not conquer,
    she does not even intend to kill her opponents - in the books she is
    desribed as enjoying the torturing of opponents by making their lives
    miserable over brutal violence and death.

    She is not Belinik who loves to kill and inflict physical pain and
    torture, she is not Haelyn or Cuiraceen with holy warriors - so why do
    you want her to have followers who copy the followers of other gods as
    if Eloele was some other god, and not what she is?

    My view of her, as the rumoured love of Curiaceen and rival of Laerme is
    that while Laerme is the godess of love and art, Eloele is a godess of
    art as well - the arts to steal without notice, to move without beeing
    seen, to exploit advantage through blackmail
    and not through violence.

    Only so can the gods in Cerilia keep their distinct differences.
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  3. #3
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    << Longsword, and any other martial weapon, in my opinion would NOT be what
    Eloele prefers. She is the godess of stealth and darkness and not
    without reason is her favoured weapon the dagger. Espeacially the
    longsword, as the symbol of Haelyn the god of justice and laws I could
    see as despised by any follower of Eloele!
    >>

    Not that it really matters for your argument, but as far as I know, Haelyn`s
    weapon is the greatsword (formerly awkwardly known as the two-handed sword).

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  4. #4
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    the Falcon wrote:

    >Not that it really matters for your argument, but as far as I know, Haelyn`s
    >weapon is the greatsword (formerly awkwardly known as the two-handed sword).
    >
    His Avatar wields a twohanded sword, right thats in the Book of Priestcraft.
    However I assumed his symbol to be the longsword, as the 3E Spiritual
    Weaspon spell lists the Longsword "Blade of Valour" for Heironeus who is
    similar to Haelyn.
    bye
    Michael

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  5. #5
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    What about the secret society of female warriors devoted to her in
    Vosgaard? Do you think they use daggers? In a harsh climate like that, I
    don`t think a dagger would be of much use.

    At 05:02 PM 1/30/2003 +0100, you wrote:
    >Lord Shade wrote:
    >
    >>Feats - probably darkness ones like blindfight. Improved Initiative and
    >>Weapon Focus in dagger would be good as well. I want them to use a real
    >>kind of sword, but not sure what.. probably longsword or rapier. Race will
    >>be Human, of Vos, Anuirean, and Brecht ethnicity. Dodge will be a good one
    >>too, and after that I am at a loss.
    >>
    >Have you read the article in Dragon Magazine 240 about the Guild of
    >Thieves (Elas Quick Fingers Temple and Guild)?
    >You might find some interesting facts in that article about Eloele/Ela
    >and her followers.
    >
    >Longsword, and any other martial weapon, in my opinion would NOT be what
    >Eloele prefers. She is the godess of stealth and darkness and not
    >without reason is her favoured weapon the dagger. Espeacially the
    >longsword, as the symbol of Haelyn the god of justice and laws I could
    >see as despised by any follower of Eloele!
    >
    >Perhaps the picture of a fighter swinging swords in both hands is what
    >seemingly all people want to see (Legolas? Drizzt?)
    >it is not my view as the ideal of Eloeles follower.
    >
    >If you REALLY can´t live without them wielding better weapons as a
    >dagger then copy and modify the "Sun Blade" from the DMG and rename it
    >"Moon Blade" for followers of Ruornil or "Shadow Blade" for followers of
    >Eloele... It is a magical weapon that can be wielded by anyone who is
    >proficient in shortsword (=rogue) and is in battle actually a bastard
    >sword - however I advise you to not do this. Eloele does not conquer,
    >she does not even intend to kill her opponents - in the books she is
    >desribed as enjoying the torturing of opponents by making their lives
    >miserable over brutal violence and death.
    >
    >She is not Belinik who loves to kill and inflict physical pain and
    >torture, she is not Haelyn or Cuiraceen with holy warriors - so why do
    >you want her to have followers who copy the followers of other gods as
    >if Eloele was some other god, and not what she is?
    >
    >My view of her, as the rumoured love of Curiaceen and rival of Laerme is
    >that while Laerme is the godess of love and art, Eloele is a godess of
    >art as well - the arts to steal without notice, to move without beeing
    >seen, to exploit advantage through blackmail
    >and not through violence.
    >
    >Only so can the gods in Cerilia keep their distinct differences.
    >bye
    >Michael Romes
    >
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  6. #6
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ---- Original Message -----
    From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:12 PM

    > What about the secret society of female warriors devoted to her in
    > Vosgaard? Do you think they use daggers? In a harsh climate like that,
    > I don`t think a dagger would be of much use.

    In such circumstances, a shortsword can be viewed as a more suitable version
    of the dagger. I`ve used the Silent Ones (see my PrC write up in the
    archives, posted
    Tuesday, May 01, 2001 12:10 PM) and found daggers useful most of the time.
    When a Silent Sister expected combat, she carried what amounts to an
    oversized dagger. Illustrations of second weapons (described as daggers) in
    renaissance fencing texts would be characterized as a small weapon (rather
    than tiny). See images at
    http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/di_grasseR...apierDagger.htm

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #7
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    Illustrations of second weapons (described as daggers) in
    >renaissance fencing texts would be characterized as a small weapon (rather
    >than tiny). See images at
    >http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/di_g...pierDagger.htm

    This website is really cool. Any other interesting stuff like it?

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  8. #8
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:52 PM 2/8/2003 -0600, Lord Shade wrote:

    > >http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/di_g...pierDagger.htm
    >
    >This website is really cool. Any other interesting stuff like it?

    I`m going to second that. I really love visual aids, even though I
    probably don`t use them as often as I could.... Any and all such sites are
    great material IMO.

    Gary

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  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:52 PM

    > >http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/di_g...pierDagger.htm
    >
    > This website is really cool. Any other interesting stuff like it?

    There are a large number of manuals dating from the renaissance out there,
    many in current publication. Di Grasse`s is the best on the web that I have
    seen. There are others (search fencing manual), but I fully expect that in
    time more and more of these will appear on the web. They predate the very
    idea of copyright, so the issue is usally someone bothering to put the thing
    out there for academic or hobby reasons.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  10. #10
    Senior Member blitzmacher's Avatar
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    >Weaspon spell lists the Longsword "Blade of Valour" for Heironeus who is
    >similar to Haelyn.

    Let's not compare BR gods with other ones. It also makes more sense in Anuire where there is a high use of platemail.
    Cattle die and kinsmen die,
    thyself too soon must die,
    but one thing never, I ween, will die, --
    fair fame of one who has earned.
    HAVAMAL

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