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  1. #1
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I`ve tweaked my AC system a bit. I`ve always been interested in having AC
    improve as one gains in level. Without a satisfying mechanism, I just
    relied on feats like Dodge to reflect this. Finally, I think I have a
    decent way to calculate AC improvement. You gain a +1 class bonus (all AC
    class bonuses stack) to AC when you gain an additional attack according to
    the BAB table. So, no matter what your class, when your BAB goes to +6/+1,
    you get an AC bonus. And, again at +11/+6/+1, and so forth. This nicely
    ties in to existing mechanisms, reflects the fact that the best defense is a
    good offense, and grants higher level players better defensive bonuses
    without the proliferation of magic armor and shields of ever greater power.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Kenneth Gauck" <c558382@EARTHLINK.NET>
    Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:47 PM


    > My calculation goes like this:
    > AC=10+armor bonus+shield bonus+class bonus+Dex mod+size mod
    >
    > Armor Bonus is modified and Class Bonus is new.
    >
    > Armor Bonus:
    > Light Armor has a bonus of +2
    > Medium Armor has a bonus of +3
    > Heavy Armor has a bonus of +4
    >
    > Class Bonus:
    > Classes who recieve no armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +0
    > Classes who recieve light armor proficency get a Class Bonus of +1
    > Classes who recieve med armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +2
    > Classes who recieve hvy armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +3
    >
    > In addition:
    > Light Armor has no damage reduction
    > Medium Armor has -/1 damage reduction
    > Heavy Armor has -/2 damage reduction

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  2. #2
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I`ve tweaked my AC system a bit. I`ve always been interested in having AC
    improve as one gains in level. Without a satisfying mechanism, I just
    relied on feats like Dodge to reflect this. Finally, I think I have a
    decent way to calculate AC improvement. You gain a +1 class bonus (all AC
    class bonuses stack) to AC when you gain an additional attack according to
    the BAB table. So, no matter what your class, when your BAB goes to +6/+1,
    you get an AC bonus. And, again at +11/+6/+1, and so forth. This nicely
    ties in to existing mechanisms, reflects the fact that the best defense is a
    good offense, and grants higher level players better defensive bonuses
    without the proliferation of magic armor and shields of ever greater power.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Kenneth Gauck" <c558382@EARTHLINK.NET>
    Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 3:47 PM


    > My calculation goes like this:
    > AC=10+armor bonus+shield bonus+class bonus+Dex mod+size mod
    >
    > Armor Bonus is modified and Class Bonus is new.
    >
    > Armor Bonus:
    > Light Armor has a bonus of +2
    > Medium Armor has a bonus of +3
    > Heavy Armor has a bonus of +4
    >
    > Class Bonus:
    > Classes who recieve no armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +0
    > Classes who recieve light armor proficency get a Class Bonus of +1
    > Classes who recieve med armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +2
    > Classes who recieve hvy armor proficiency get a Class Bonus of +3
    >
    > In addition:
    > Light Armor has no damage reduction
    > Medium Armor has -/1 damage reduction
    > Heavy Armor has -/2 damage reduction

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #3
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Not this bad. I've always hated this low AC in 3rd Edition (and monsters have an AC of 40). To get an acceptable AC you must push your armor with magic plus rings, cloaks etc. Mostly you can forget your Dex bonus, if you wear medium or heavy and don't have the "celestial" armor. This level-based AC incensement is a good idea to compensate this with fewer magic...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 06:51 AM 1/27/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    >I`ve tweaked my AC system a bit. I`ve always been interested in having AC
    >improve as one gains in level.

    You don`t want to go with just a regular Defense Bonus as part of each of
    the character classes? The one from the WoT, for instance, increases every
    two or three levels and starts at +2 or +3 for most character classes. The
    numbers in that text are a little tweaked for that setting, but one could
    use a similar one in a more universal D20 manner. If you tie an AC bonus
    to BAB that means the classes with the fastest BAB progression will improve
    the quickest, which may not make sense when you think about the speed and
    dodging capabilities of monks or rogues in comparison to, say, paladins or
    clerics.

    Gary

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  5. #5
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    On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 06:38:14AM -0800, Gary wrote:
    > >I`ve tweaked my AC system a bit. I`ve always been interested in having AC
    > >improve as one gains in level.
    >
    > You don`t want to go with just a regular Defense Bonus as part of each of
    > the character classes? The one from the WoT, for instance, increases every
    > two or three levels and starts at +2 or +3 for most character classes. The
    > numbers in that text are a little tweaked for that setting, but one could
    > use a similar one in a more universal D20 manner. If you tie an AC bonus
    > to BAB that means the classes with the fastest BAB progression will improve
    > the quickest, which may not make sense when you think about the speed and
    > dodging capabilities of monks or rogues in comparison to, say, paladins or
    > clerics.

    True, but Defense doesn`t just represent dodging. It also represents
    knowning how to block, parry, and when one can rely on one`s armor to
    safely deflect a blow. Given that AC represents total "defense" it would
    seem odd to advantage rogues over professional soldiers.

    It should also be noted that, with the exception of the Armsman class,
    the WoT Defense Bonuses do not stack with armor. Thus rogues (wanders)
    may have a very good AC for an unarmored person, but their AC doesn`t
    begin to compare to a trained warrior in full battle-dress. Which,
    IMHO, is as it should be.

    The "+1 AC per base extra attack" is a very interesting idea;
    particularly in a low magic BIRTHRIGHT setting where the magical
    weapons/armor are rare. In my experience, the lack of magical weapons
    and armor is a wash for warrior to warrior battles, but it provides a
    HUGE advantage to spellcasters (a +7 bonus for shield and a +4 bonus for
    haste, for example, is huge when there are very few magical bonuses to
    attack) and to high-level monsters (which are designed under the assumption
    that the party facing them has a "normal" level of magical arms/armor
    as part of their CR).

    - Doom

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  6. #6
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    In the revised Star Wars system, there is a defense bonus that is class based and is in effect at all times even when the character is denied his dexterity bonus. Armor doesn't provide any AC bonus it only provides a damage reduction against critical hits. In that system a character has vitality points (similar to hit points) and wound points (which are equal to the character's constitution score). A successful critical hit goes straight to the character's wound points. There is a -2 penalty to the chracter's defense bonus for every additional class picked up. I've got a 6th level Klatoonian with a 19 Dex who has a 20 AC. He is 3rd level scoundrel and 4th level soldier. Basically his defense bonus was a +8 (then -2 for 1 additional class).

    The system works pretty well, but would require a completely different armor system to work.:)
    Duane Eggert

  7. #7
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    On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, irdeggman wrote:
    > In the revised Star Wars system, there is a defense bonus that is
    > class based and is in effect at all times even when the character is
    > denied his dexterity bonus.
    >
    > The system works pretty well, but would require a completely different
    > armor system to work.:)

    So we have Star Wars and WoT with class bonuses to AC. Add to that d20
    Modern; each class gets a bonus to AC that increases with level, and
    stacks fully with armor, etc. The rationale is that magical armor is
    unheard of in modern, so even if they wear armor and have a high class
    defense bonus, they`re not overbalanced on AC.

    I don`t think it`s that big a problem to add a class defense bonus to BR
    if you keep the `rare magic armor` assumption. If it really bothers you,
    you could say the Dex limit from armor also applies to class AC bonuses,
    so the best you could get with straight chainmail (+5 AC, Max Dex +2)
    would be AC 19 (+5 armor, +2 dex, +2 class bonus).
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  8. #8
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    There is one problem with your system Kenneth. The D&D attackbonus includes attacks and parades, they are not seperated. A fighting round is the result of many hit and runs. In that sense some kind of additional dodge bonus does not fit. Because the fighting development of each character class (which includes already the attack and parade) IS already reflected by the base attack bonus.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  9. #9
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    The only problem I see with this system is, that wizards/ sorcerers get no AC improvement at all. This would let them get an even lesser AC (O.K., most of them will still help themselves with magic). Most wizards would push their own AC first, making magical armor for fighters even more rare.

    If you use this system, I would give a mage an AC bonus of +1 for each new attack (this is slowly enough)...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  10. #10
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    On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 23:14, Azrai wrote:

    Azrai wrote:
    There is one problem with your system Kenneth. The D&D attackbonus includes
    attacks and parades, they are not seperated. A fighting round is the result
    of many hit and runs. In that sense some kind of additional dodge bonus does
    not fit. Because the fighting development of each character class (which
    includes already the attack and parade) IS already reflected by the base
    attack bonus.

    That was originally true in earlier editions (more true the earlier you
    go). I think that concept has (sadly) got completely lost by 3e, so
    Kenneth`s suggestion is quite viable in an attack round broken down into
    a more tactical simulation style of play. Certainly by 2nd Ed D&D, there
    was a strong move toward tactical simulation of hand-to-hand combat -
    which has always suffered from having its roots firmly planted in the
    abstract one-minute melee round.

    A mixed abstract/simulated combat model will always suffer from
    comparisons - for no matter which you prefer, the elements of the other
    will suck. Simulated combat makes for long drawn out melee combats, but
    provide a level of action detail for those who don`t want to just make
    up the narrative based on results alone. More abstract combat can be
    quick and decisive, usually only one or two rolls for the entire combat
    -- but may lack a certain satisfaction from an aesthetic point of view
    unless your DM is particularly understanding and inventive in describing
    combat results.

    Most adventure gaming today is based on gaining points/level by combat -
    defeating a final monster/opponent - with traps and tricks as minor
    obstacles. This leads to a game style that is highly dependent on combat
    (killing) ability and therefore a greater interest in combat rules and
    simulated combat. The original concept of role-playing as taking on a
    role - where the successful strategy was to avoid combat as much as
    possible relegates combat to a more minor role. This is however much
    harder to do, and almost impossible to computerize as well as having
    less broad market appeal. (game concept is that of a non-zero sum game,
    virtually unknown in human game systems)

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