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  1. #81
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    From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

    > No offense, but this shows that you aren`t really a min/maxer. Sorcerer is
    > way weak compared to a wizard at almost every level. (in a 1v1 duel -
    there
    > are cases in which it is better to be a sorcerer, generally when you
    expect
    > to be fighting many battles in a day)
    >

    Considering what has been said in this thread, calling me "not a min/maxes
    could be a compliment. :)

    Anyway, I know that the wizard usually beats the sorcerer. I beleive the
    reason for this is that the sorcerer has been "punished" for it`s min/maxing
    combat potential. It is very easy to make a slugger sorcerer, and the
    concept seems to be all about combat. But because of this, the class got
    shortchanged, and is actually very weak. This is a sad thing, as the concept
    is sterling.

    /Carl


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  2. #82
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    >Considering what has been said in this thread, calling me "not a min/maxes
    >could be a compliment. :)

    lol, that is true, but I consider a player`s ability to min/max as valuable
    a skill as being able to roleplay well. And they are NOT mutually
    exclusive. The downside is, if one of my players doesn`t know how to minmax
    well, I can help him. If he`s a bad roleplayer, there isn`t as much I can
    do to fix it.

    >Anyway, I know that the wizard usually beats the sorcerer. I beleive the
    >reason for this is that the sorcerer has been "punished" for it`s min/maxing
    >combat potential. It is very easy to make a slugger sorcerer, and the
    >concept seems to be all about combat. But because of this, the class got
    >shortchanged, and is actually very weak. This is a sad thing, as the concept
    >is sterling.

    You`re right to a point, except the problem is that the sorcerer isn`t
    really more powerful in combat either. Wizard gets more feats than a
    sorcerer, meaning more versatility. Versatility = a form of power.
    Furthermore, in a duel situation, a wizard has meaningful access to quicken
    spell, which effectively doubles his offensive strength in a short fight.
    In order to use Quicken Spell, a sorcerer has to burn one of his 7-8 feats
    on Arcane Prep, which is otherwise a more-or-less useless feat. A wizard
    has more feats total, which means it is easier to spend feats on buying
    things like Spell Focus and Spell Penetration. He`ll also have more Craft
    Item feats, and therefore a larger number of magic items.

    Wizard already trumps the sorc in getting higher level spells faster and
    potentially having a much wider variety. The only situation where the sorc
    has an advantage is during long adventures that include multiple fights
    every day, where the sorcerer`s more spells castable become an issue. Even
    then, a wizard can cut down the gap a lot by being a specialist mage.

    That being said, sorc is still a very fun class to play, especially with
    spontaneous casting. This is why min/maxers still develop builds using
    sorcerer even though Wiz is better in almost every case. Even having Cha as
    your casting stat becomes a roleplaying bonus - and even stacking as many
    roleplaying bonuses as you can get is a form of min/maxing.

    One thing that is very important to realize is that not all min/maxing
    revolves around combat. For an example check my post on the Min/Max boards
    about a build for Marie Cwllmie (ETN).

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  3. #83
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    From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

    > You`re right to a point, except the problem is that the sorcerer isn`t
    > really more powerful in combat either.

    What I was trying to say was not that the Soec is more powerful in combat.
    My supposition is that sorcerers APPEAR to be more powerful in combat, and
    that perhaps playtest versions were more powerful in combat, and thus got
    toned down. In effect, they paid so much for their supposedly good combat
    abilities thay they lost them, and actually became worse in combat that the
    (supposedly) low-combat-ability wizard.

    /Carl


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  4. #84
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    >What I was trying to say was not that the Soec is more powerful in combat.
    >My supposition is that sorcerers APPEAR to be more powerful in combat, and
    >that perhaps playtest versions were more powerful in combat, and thus got
    >toned down. In effect, they paid so much for their supposedly good combat
    >abilities thay they lost them, and actually became worse in combat that the
    >(supposedly) low-combat-ability wizard.

    Hmm, that`s a good point. I never thought of it that way. The flipside of
    the coin is that the designers didn`t think there was a problem with the
    Sorcerer getting absolutely nothing past level 1, because they didn`t
    envision the mess that prestige classes have become.

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