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  1. #11
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    Christoph Tiemann wrote:
    >I can`t picture a larger population of elves living among the human population of Anuire, given the history of Cerilia. There are probably still small clans of elves in remote areas within human domains, waging a guerilla war against the humans or just staying out of sight, but I guess that elves would be a rare sight within human settlements. I guess these elves would be frequently harassed by suspicious humans and pogroms wouldn`t be uncommon.
    >However, the notion of elven ghettos within larger Anuirean Cities has some potential. How about an elven crime lord for a villain, who deals with drugs and is involved in other illegal activities such as the slave trade, justifying his actions as an attempt to weaken the humans and/or to exert revenge?
    Well anuire is pretty remotly populated in most areas. and imagine the huge woods of boeruine and other similar places are even more so.if they were heavily populated they would have been cleared. villages days apart mightned be terribly aware of any elven settlments in the wild or really care. id imagine places like bourine w6uld have plenty of wilderness
    also just because of their viollent history it doesnt mean they wouldnt live side by side. in medival ireland the irish and the english reguarly and constantly launched wars to wipe out the other, yet both areas had substantial minoritys of the other population. in english areas gaelic clans men formed the lower classes and in gaelic areas the english adopted gaelic custom and culture.
    yes trouble may brew up between communtys from time to time, with the occasional pogrom.
    Posted by Azrai,Elves are not common in human communities, but there are some. it's pretty much the same than in every fantasy campaign.
    true but in most campaigns the elves wernt conqured by the humans, and the sidhline are diffrent from most elves.
    Posted by Birthright-L,If there`s a demihuman
    population listed for a realm, I`d go with mostly halflings and a few
    dwarves.
    i agree in halflings would be the most numerous demi-human in this case. but i think the dwarfs would be strong in some areas.there are a number of reasons why. firstly the books mention the humans left the dwarfs keep the mountins and it also mentions rhoubhe may have broken down some dwarf defences to let out the orogs. it would not be unreasonable to assume these communitys still exist, and are not strong enough to from their own kingdoms but instead swear vassalage to the human ones near buy.

    course i might be trying to read between the lines to much:)
    Satanta

  2. #12
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    The question to me is "What might be a `typical` demographic breakdown of
    the various populations in particular regions?" For example, in the
    predominantly human lands of Khinasi there might be 91% humans, 4%
    halflings, 2% dwarves, 1% elves and 2% "other" (various humanoids, goblins,
    orogs, whatever.) In particular elven realms the population might be 95%
    elves, 3% half-elves and 2% "other" with the "human friendly" elven realms
    being as much as 20% human and having an appropriately larger percentage of
    half-elves.

    The particulars of these racial demographics could be broken down by region
    or by domain, but domain would probably be more useful, and not all that
    much work. They used to list in many old campaign settings (Greyhawk comes
    to mind) the specific numbers of each race in the population. While one
    would probably want to make those numbers of for each domain independently,
    it might be possible to have some sort of rough set of modifiers based on
    the terrain types of the provinces in a domain. The various races are
    generally associated with a particular terrain (forests for elves,
    mountains for dwarves, etc.) so one could then use those terrains as an
    influence on the overall population.

    Let`s just say, for example, that for every forested province in a domain
    0.5% of the population will be elven, for every mountainous province in a
    domain 1% of the population will be dwarven, and for every province that
    has a "hilly" terrain 1% will be halfling. A domain like Dhoesone might
    then have a population that was 93% human, 3% elven (I`m counting the 50/50
    forested province of Giant`s Fastness as an entirely forested province for
    this) and 1% halfling (the other half of Giant`s Fastness looks more like
    "low mountains" than hills, but this is just as an example.)

    The terrain types that are represented on the maps of Cerilia are sometimes
    hard to discern or differentiate, but if we`re talking about rough
    percentages it might give us a place to start.

    If we wanted to come up with some sort of lose connection between terrain
    types and the racial percentage breakdown of the population of that domain
    then what kinds of numbers are we talking about?

    Gary

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  3. #13
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    While terrain should be taken into account it should not be the deciding factor the location and history of a realm should come into play. for instance dhoesone might have the highest percentge of elves for a non elven nation, while thurazor would hold none id imagine.
    The large citys of ariya,zikala and nations in that area might only contain a few merchants or adventurer s of elf or half elf blood. as it was never elven territory and they would not like the terrain.here elves are almost unheard of and draw considrable currioity.
    nations like ,innishiere,tuarnnwn,and llubraight would probably have a 96% of elves, the rest being devided between 1/2 elves and halflings, the only live humans being in the dungeons.
    then places like the sielwode,Coullabhie and cwmbbheinn have a human population of only 40-100 people, consisting of a few ambasadors and the like
    while thurievel maybe 1-2% human,5%half-elf and 3% halfling
    while ruannach has a human population of about 20% human
    (as far as a know rhoube has a human population of 1, a man trying to kill rhoube:) )

    i think for human nations that the nature of the nearybuy elven realms and their attitude towards elves would have a barring on their population levels.

    In my campaign Cariele had a distinctive subgroup in it underclass who were called sidhlauch. they formed about 9% of the population and mostly lived in city slums or small reservation like areas in the wild. they were decendants of elve who once dwelt here.they formed their own distict culture neither elven or anuiren. and they had trhwir own distinct language , a blend of anuirian and sidhline .most also spoke anuriean but not all and an even smaller group spoke elven.
    but they were not just half elves
    about 3% had only 25% elven blood and could pass in most cases as slightly unusual looking humans.(for abillitys perposes treat like half elfs
    about 3% were half elf
    another 2 % were near elf , and looked like unusual elfs(treated as elves)
    and the last 1% true blood elves
    (due to their low place in socity many were engaged in smuggling and thiefs guilds)
    in addition there were another 2% of "wild" elves, or sidhline and not part of this sub culture.
    due to the mountinous nature of the terrin i decided there were about another 2% of dwarfs
    and finnaly 2% of halflings.and 1 % resident goblins(not counting marauding bands and such)
    for a grand total of 16% non-human and 74% human.

    however i had ghoere with a demi-human population of about 3%
    brinin
    (is there a players guide to Cariele)
    i never gave many of the other nations much thought on the subject
    Satanta

  4. #14
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:46 AM 1/10/2003 +0100, Satanta wrote:

    > While terrain should be taken into account it should not be the deciding
    > factor the location and history of a realm should come into play. for
    > instance dhoesone might have the highest percentge of elves for a non
    > elven nation, while thurazor would hold none id imagine.

    Yeah, I wouldn`t use it as an absolute set of numbers. Just something to
    give an indication of what kinds of populations might be represented in a
    particular area. It`s the kind of thing that one could definitely apply a
    broad fudge factor to.

    >i think for human nations that the nature of the nearybuy elven realms and
    >their attitude towards elves would have a barring on their population levels.

    ...and vice versa. Such considerations could double to triple the
    representation of a particular race in a domain. To get a feel for this
    sort of thing the predominant racial characteristics of nearby domains
    might be used as a similar modifier. Dhoesone`s border with the relatively
    "liberal" and "human-friendly" Tuarhieval, for instance, might double its
    elf population, or increase it by +2% or something. However, an elven
    kingdom like the Sielwode would not have the same affect (maybe it would be
    less, maybe it would be no effect at all) on the number of elves in its
    neighbors.

    Other things that would probably effect the racial breakdown in particular
    domains would be the existence of trade routes across the borders into
    domains with other populations. One might also want to take into
    consideration the relative militancy of the populations and how zealously
    they might guard their borders. Ghoere, for example, might not be the kind
    of place where a lot of halflings would find themselves interested in settling.

    I suppose it would also be possible to use a similar system to get a rough
    idea what the percentages of human populations are in particular
    domain. Cerilia`s humans, of course, are all over the map. Anuireans in
    Khinasi, Brechts in Vosgaard, etc. The existence of particular domains
    (Elinie, for example) could be used as the basis for determining how many
    humans of Khinasi descent are in that domain and in nearby ones.

    Gary

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  5. #15
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 8:24 PM


    > Dhoesone`s border with the relatively "liberal" and "human-friendly"
    > Tuarhieval, for instance, might double its elf population. However,
    > an elven kingdom like the Sielwode would not have the same affect
    > on the number of elves in its neighbors.

    I think the pro or anti-human stance better describes how many humans are in
    the sidhe realms than the other way round. Perhaps the pro-human sidhe of
    the Sielwode have abandon their home forests for forests in nearby human
    realms. This one could go both ways.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I generally find the at the Player's Secrets are totally inconsistent with the "core rules", by "core rules" I mean the BRRB, Atlas of Cerialia (also inconsistancies between these two), the Tribes of the Heartless Wastes, Ruins of Empire, Havens of the Great Bay, Cities in the Sun, Rjurik Highlands, BoP, and BoM - one could even include the BoR.

    The underlying theme in these is that humans and elves, with very few exceptions, "hate" each other. It is written that humans see half elves as changelings and they are shunned and only fully accepted in elven societies. Even the Rjurik Highland mentions a great fallout (war) between the elves and the Rjurik. Only the Tribes of the Heartless wastes talks about elves and humans living in peace. Some of the domains listed would most definitely be exceptions, but they generally include a "reason" for this exception - half sister/brother, etc. I generally look for the "weight" of the evidience and the priority of the source, core rules having higher priority than something like the Player's Secrets, but the regional expansions taking precedence over the core rules when it comes to the area being discussed.

    I generally agree with Daniel on his assessment that the majority of the demi-human population is halflings. Specifically in Rhosone, which is majorly plains and farmlands now, it makes no sense for there to be elves present in the cities. This is one of the places that the "old" forest was razed to make room for human settlements and except for the last remaining forests in southern Rhoesone and Arewenewe (spelling) there is really no place for them to "call home". Also there should be a real lack of dwarven population in this area, snce the closest dwarven domain in Baruk-Azhik which is very shorthanded due to their ongoing war with the Orogs. Also the timeline lists dates where almost all of the dwarven domains "shut their doors" and reverted to isolationism - the one major exception is in Brechtur and we don't count Mur-Kilad.


    In general Birthright is a very human-centric campaign setting, with limited interaction between humans and the demi-human races, so it is really not the "typical" D&D population.


    IMO it very important to maintain the "friction" between elves and humans until characters do something to remedy this situation, i.e., role-play and adventures. IMO it is also important to maintain the general "aloofness" of the dwarves, it is the reason they have been at peace with the elves for as long as they have.


    Just my 2 cps.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
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    the way i see it much of the elven populations in human lands would not be people who left elven realms,why would they wish to leave their ancient homelands in any great numbers.
    those that dwell in human lands are their because it was their ancient homelands before the humans over ran it, but they could still not bring themselves to leave. even still i think they would be a relativly small minority.
    others in places near llubraight could be exiles for having to friendly relations with humans.

    as for human ethnic groups(khinasi, vos etc) that is another thing ive thought about a bit especially in relation to dhoesone.a country with a real frontear feel where three cultures meet, elf ,rjurik and anuire.

    i broke it down into
    15% elf (most living in hidden settlments)
    5% half-elf
    5%rjurik mainly in the northern provinces and not counting the nomadic clans which dwell part of the year in stjordvik or giantdowns
    15% anuirean-rjurik, people who speak anuirean and have adopted much from anureian culture while retainaing parts of their rjueik heratige and are the decendants 6f the rjurik of hjalsone.
    3% halfling
    2% goblin(those legaly residing in the state)
    and 55% anuirean.


    the way i see it is that dhoesone has the largest population of elves outside an elven realm. it is close to thurievel, has vast tracts of woodland humans wouldnt have penatrared and a friendly goverment.
    Satanta

  8. #18
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    Posted by irdeggman,The underlying theme in these is that humans and elves, with very few exceptions, "hate" each other.
    races that hate each other still live besdide each other in many parts of our world, just because there are genocidal wars doesnt mean some of the original population doesnt servive.
    i agree places like rhoesone would have very few elves, but other nations have huge expances of forest which small elven communitys could still dwell.
    look at teh north american indians they were nearly wiped out but their remenents still dwell in patches of land in on the fringes of white america.
    similarily places like boeruine could have a small native elven population who still dwell their because they have no where else to go.


    as for the books , whats written in them is only a guide line ,they are incomplete at best, the dwarven minority in dauren was mentioned because it was abnormaly large, but there could be others else where.
    the books hint at a lot.
    for instance the seamist ntns have dwarf built defences that rhoube is suspected of braking down to release orogs, with no large dwarf realm near buy it would not be unreasonable to suspect some sort of dwarven minority in the area.
    Also the islnd of zweilunds mention lrge dwarf carved underground caverns and city. the book doesnt have time to detail everything , but this would hint at the existance of dwarfs on these islands(of couse they could be wiped out ,but the book doesnt say one way or the other.
    Satanta

  9. #19
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I was refering to elves living in the human cities, which I think was the original posting. It makes perfect sense to me for some elves to be living in the Erbanian (again spelling) in southern Roesone and Arenewe, but not in the human cities along side the humans. This would be side by side but with not in the same place, remember that humans venturing into the Sielwood have generally not been seen again.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #20
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:38 PM 1/9/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > > Dhoesone`s border with the relatively "liberal" and "human-friendly"
    > > Tuarhieval, for instance, might double its elf population. However,
    > > an elven kingdom like the Sielwode would not have the same affect
    > > on the number of elves in its neighbors.
    >
    >I think the pro or anti-human stance better describes how many humans are in
    >the sidhe realms than the other way round. Perhaps the pro-human sidhe of
    >the Sielwode have abandon their home forests for forests in nearby human
    >realms. This one could go both ways.

    OK. I guess I`ll buy that as far as it goes. It makes the process a
    little smoother too since one can keep the modifiers and influences within
    a particular domain rather than having to determine the various "policies"
    of neighbors. It still seems off to me that the Sielwode`s influence on
    the percentage of elven population in Coeranys would be the same as
    Tuarhieval`s influence on Dhoesone, but since this is just a sort of
    guideline rather than an absolute set of numbers so it probably doesn`t
    make a lot of difference.

    Gary

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