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  1. #11
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:39 PM 1/7/2003 +0100, Christoph Tiemann wrote:

    >I did some research on the quantities of wood required in pre-industrial
    >production processes a while ago and can give some rough figures.

    Great data, CT. What are your references?

    Gary

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  2. #12
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    Just an aside....

    In a message dated 1/7/03 8:41:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
    tiemach@UNI-MUENSTER.DE writes:

    << BTW, the glass industry in England was required by law to use coal instead
    of wood since 1635, as wood was apparently to valuable and becoming to
    scarce. >>

    Probably to preserve forests for shipbuilding.

    Lee.

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  3. #13
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    Early mirrors are just highly polished steel or silver - no glass needed.
    bye
    Michael Romes

    >Ariadne wrote:
    > One of my characters wants to create a magical mirror (when ready, I`ll post it here). My question is: How common is glass in Cerilia (my character lives in Khinasi).
    >IMO glass should be less expensive, where natural sodium and potassium carbonate exists. In the old Egypt where (and are) natural seas of sodium carbonate (potassium carbonate is created through burning wood). That`s why glass is known there very early. Are such natural seas found in Khinasi (or elsewhere in Cerilia)?
    >Next question: Mirrors are created with a reduction of a silver salt today. Some (cheap) ideas of creating mirrors in Cerilia?
    >

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  4. #14
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Gary wrote:
    >>Great data, CT. What are your references?<<

    I did a paper about mining operations and forest destruction in Siberia during the eighteenth Century nearly two years ago. The numbers I came up with are based on the account of the German explorer Johann Georgi who traveled Russia on the orders of the Czaress Catherine the Great. Georgi gave detailed descriptions of every mine and production facility he visited, including output, production processes and resources used. I extrapolated from this data, using other material for help.
    Unfortunately, nearly all of the references I used are in German, with a smattering of French and English. I would be willing to mail my references to anyone still interested. For starters, I`d recommend the `Cambridge economic history of Europe`, volume 1 (middle ages) to 5 (early modern Europe) for English or American readers. I guess that this work will be available at most public libraries.
    BTW, even though my references are not medieval, the production processes in Russia remained largely the same for centuries, so I believe that my data would be valid for Cerilia.

    Lee Hanna wrote:
    >>>
    << BTW, the glass industry in England was required by law to use coal instead
    of wood since 1635, as wood was apparently to valuable and becoming to
    scarce. >>

    Probably to preserve forests for shipbuilding <<<

    Yes, this was certainly one reason. In addition, large quantities of wood would be required to support the growing production of iron as it was not possibly to produce iron using coal until 1709 (the sulphurous fumes coal produces ruin the iron and other metals like copper as well) and it took nearly a century more until this technology was widespread.
    In my campaign, the dwarves are the only race who have overcome these technological difficulties and who can use coal to produce high quality iron and other metals. It`s a closely guarded secret of their race. All other races have to use charcoal, i.e. wood.

    With regard to shipbuilding, another historical example (Sorry, I`m a history buff ;-). In 1709, Czar Peter I forbid the felling of high quality trees like oaks in an area twenty miles wide on both sides of all rivers leading to Moscow upon pain of death to preserve the wood for his navy. Later, the sentence was lowered to cutting off the nose of the offender. Environmental decree, anyone?

    Back to mirror making. I re-read the section about mirrors in the Spells&Magic supplement I mentioned. In addition to the two craft checks I mentioned, this book requires another two craft checks for creating the frame (DC between 6 and 30 depending on the size of the mirror) and the backing (depending on which material is used: no check for quicksilver; DC between 10 and 18 for copper, silver or gold; DC between 15 and 26 for Mithral or Adamantine once again influenced by size), an Alchemy (DC 15) and a craft check (DC 20) to seal the mirror. In addition, mirror mages can include magical fluids between glass and backing that shall increase the mirror`s magic potential. Doing so requires an Alchemy check (DC 5+10 per magical essence after the first) and an additional craft check (DC 20) to seal the fluid inside the mirror. The book lists 17 possible essences (for example Rose essence influences Force effects) that can be combined. Mirror mages can use their mirrors to store, reflect or absorb spells.

    Well, sounds like an awful lot of skill checks to me, but since we`re speaking of magic items maybe that`s not too tough.

    Christoph Tiemann

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  5. #15
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

    Early mirrors are just highly polished steel or silver - no glass needed.
    May be, but I want to create something like the "Snow White" mirror and that is made of glass...

    @Beruin: Thanks for your post...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  6. #16
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    Ariadne wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1194
    >
    > Ariadne wrote:
    >
    Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
    >
    >Early mirrors are just highly polished steel or silver - no glass needed.
    >May be, but I want to create something like the "Snow White" mirror and that is made of glass...
    >
    Sorry for my late post - I have to remember to read ALL posts that come
    in before replying to one which had already been answered :-(

    I can´t remember Schneewittchen (Snowwhite) so good to know of what
    material the mirror was - perhaps it´s only in the movie? Or the author
    simply used knowledge of his days to describe a mirror that at the time
    of the fairy tale could not yet exist?

    What I know definitely is that Perseus used a polished shield to defeat
    the Gorgon Medusas petrifying gaze...
    bye
    Michael Romes

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  7. #17
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote:
    >>Early mirrors are just highly polished steel or silver - no glass needed.<<

    This is certainly true. The earliest mirrors are recorded for Egypt about 3000 B.C. They consisted of polished copper or bronze. However, glass mirrors existed in the Roman Empire since at least 300 AD. According to the Roman sage Pliny, the Phoenicians invented glass mirrors. These early mirrors produced a slightly distorted reflection as the glass was not polished. Apparently the technology was lost during the so-called `Dark Ages` and re-invented during the thirteenth century. Judging from the typical level of technology in Cerilia, glass mirrors would certainly be available and would probably be more common than polished metal.

    (Reference: Peter James/Nick Thorpe, Ancient Inventions, New York 1994. A German translation under the title `Keilschrift, Kompass, Kaugummi` does exist)

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  8. #18
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ConjurerDragon


    I can´t remember Schneewittchen (Snowwhite) so good to know of what material the mirror was - perhaps it´s only in the movie? Or the author simply used knowledge of his days to describe a mirror that at the time of the fairy tale could not yet exist?
    As I said already, I'll post it, when ready... ;)

    If it is interesting to you, it has to do with communication between two users...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

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