Gross Production/BR economic theory

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 10:16 AM

>OTOH, what exactly is in "iron rations"?

I`ve always assumed them to be similar to the military biscuits that were
common during the early modern period. They were unleven biscuits of heavy
breads that are often described as being like eating a rock, but they were
also capable of sustaining a reasonably healthy person with no nutritional
deficency for reasably long periods of time (months) with little else.
These biscuits became popular when military forces abandon pillage as a
source of supply for the magazine system. They are dry as dust and very
hard. Some languages use a word more like cracker than biscuit to describe
them. They were often prepared long in advance of a campaign. Napoleon,
for instance began the baking of his supplies near the end of 1811 for his
1812 campaign. He had millions of biscuits prepared in depots throughout
eastern Germany and Poland which he brought into Russia. His troops, less
accustomed to portaging their supply, stuffed themselves and threw away most
of their food, intending to pillage Russia. Only Marshal Davout (and the
Imperial Guard) knew to take special preperations and made sure that the
biscuits were not gorged or discarded in order to make the march lighter,
because they anticipated the lower population density of Russia, and the
scorched earth tactics of the Russians. Anyway, these biscuits were months
old.

That is what I imagine when the idea of Iron Rations comes up.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Satanta]

lawgiver did you say that a completely agriculturl economy would provide no surplus?(if im wrong it due to sleep deprevation).
if so thats not entirely true. gaelic ireland had an almost completley agricultural system, with no towns and no citys, yet were able to sustain a learned class, a nobility and warrior class quite well





another point i would like to make is the value of the gold bar
1GB=2,000gps

this doent make any sence, as far as i can see the price of goods in cerilia is not howly different from a standard AD&D world, but the transferal doesnt work

1 infantry unit costs 2 GBs to muster, yet this wouldnt even buy them a suit of chain mail each(infantry unit has about 200 men)
200x75=15,000 or 7 1/2 GBs
200 longswords costs 3,000gps or 1 1/2 GBs
similarly a unit of cavalry (say 50 men ) could not equip a unit on 4GBs or 160 gps each

surely it would make more sense for gold bar to be worth 10,000 or 20,000 gps?

sorry for trying of the point ;)

[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
> >OTOH, what exactly is in "iron rations"?
>
> I`ve always assumed them to be similar to the military biscuits that were
> common during the early modern period. They were unleven biscuits of heavy
> breads that are often described as being like eating a rock,

Ah, hardtack! I remember making (and eating, and force-feeding my
classmates) some of that stuff in grade school for a project about the
American Revolution. Damn near broke my teeth on it. Tasted a lot like
oyster crackers, actually. I got the recipe out of some kids magazine.
Definitely much improved by letting it soak in your drink for a while.

> but they were also capable of sustaining a reasonably healthy person
> with no nutritional deficency for reasably long periods of time
> (months) with little else. These biscuits became popular when military
> forces abandon pillage as a source of supply for the magazine system.

I had thought of them mostly as food for the navy (which obviously cannot
pillage), but I suppose they`d be quite useful on land as well.

> They are dry as dust and very hard.

Yes, that pretty much describes what I made.

> His troops, less accustomed to portaging their supply, stuffed
> themselves and threw away most of their food, intending to pillage
> Russia.

Whoops! Ouch.

> That is what I imagine when the idea of Iron Rations comes up.

Thanks, that helped a lot.


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Satanta wrote:
> another point i would like to make is the value of the gold bar
> 1GB=2,000gps
>
> this doent make any sence, as far as i can see the price of goods in
> cerilia is not howly different from a standard AD&D world, but the
> transferal doesnt work
>
> 1 infantry unit costs 2 GBs to muster, yet this wouldnt even buy them
> a suit of chain mail each(infantry unit has about 200 men)
> 200x75=15,000 or 7 1/2 GBs
> 200 longswords costs 3,000gps or 1 1/2 GBs
> similarly a unit of cavalry (say 50 men ) could not equip a unit on
> 4GBs or 160 gps each
>
> surely it would make more sense for gold bar to be worth 10,000 or
> 20,000 gps?

You`re right, it doesn`t work. But the Cerilian military structure is
still semi-feudal, so you`re not equipping all these men directly. You`re
calling up noblemen and their lackeys who are loyal to you. (It`s the
only way the money can work out). Mercenaries are more expensive, because
you pay them more, but they`re pre-equipped as well, the dogs of war take
care of their own gear.

Incidentally, I`d say a unit of regular infantry is more likely to be
equipped with hardened leather cuirasses and a mix of axes, spears, and
bill hooks than they are to have chain and swords. A unit of knights
might have on average chain mail and a breastplate, and it would be a
family heirloom to that man at arms.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Lawgiver]

Originally posted by Satanta
lawgiver did you say that a completely agriculturl economy would provide no surplus?(if im wrong it due to sleep deprevation).
if so thats not entirely true. gaelic ireland had an almost completley agricultural system, with no towns and no citys, yet were able to sustain a learned class, a nobility and warrior class quite well

No. I sure didn't. :P What I did say is that there is no way for the surplus needed to meet 76 GB in income generated every turn to be produced solely from agriculture (see the first page of the posts on this thread). The agricultural output could be sufficient to provide for the masses in a level 10 province, but its not going to produce a surplus of 912 GB (1,824,000 gp) a year. ;) The vast majority of the excess will come from the afore mentioned items.

Originally posted by Satanta
another point i would like to make is the value of the gold bar
1GB=2,000gps

this doent make any sence, as far as i can see the price of goods in cerilia is not howly different from a standard AD&D world, but the transferal doesnt work

1 infantry unit costs 2 GBs to muster, yet this wouldnt even buy them a suit of chain mail each(infantry unit has about 200 men)
200x75=15,000 or 7 1/2 GBs
200 longswords costs 3,000gps or 1 1/2 GBs
similarly a unit of cavalry (say 50 men ) could not equip a unit on 4GBs or 160 gps each

surely it would make more sense for gold bar to be worth 10,000 or 20,000 gps?
sorry for trying of the point ;)

I argued that point ages ago, but was bashed to peices a few other members of the board. I still think the cost is too low. However, here are a few suggestions to make it more feasible:

-The military hires its own armorers and weaponsmiths. Its MUCH MUCH cheaper to pay a few contracted workers than to buy items at retail.
-Many of the armies men are made up of those who already have swords and armor
-armor and weapons are recycled to some degree. Once the unit is originally created its arms are kept in a store house after it disbands (though these ultimately have to come from somewhere...)
-dead units are scavenged for arms (though again they must have an origin)
-indentured servants or prisoners could be trained as skilled laborers to build certain items.

[Satanta]

hmmm it is a good way of trying to explain it. surely it would be easier to just add that extra little zero and everything looks belivable.

anyway the original game designer might have ment 20,000 rather than 2,000 , it could have been a miss print;)