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  1. #11
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Salamander" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 4:01 AM


    > To me it seems that you`re speaking about change from exchange
    > economy (product for product) to one of monetary economy (product
    > for money for product) and in that regard you are correct altrough ratio
    > between these two exchange system varies heavily depending on the
    > stability of the currency. (When currency is weak people turn back to
    > exchanging product for product.

    Indeed. As well as a general shortage of specie because it A) tends to end
    up in stagnant treasure chests or other kinds of non-productive wealth
    (stain glass windows, gem encrusted scepters, &c) and B) it gets exported to
    obtain foriegn goods (spices, silks, &c).

    Whether Cerilia obtained a monitarized economy through a shift from weak
    money to strong (as you mention), a shortage a money, or just a feedback
    loop of growing commerce creating a credit demand, I cannnot guess. The
    materials makes no effort to explain which alternate theory make the most
    sense for Cerilia, so we have some flexibility how we understand Cerilia`s
    (or the various Cerilian) economies.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 9:12 AM


    > The contention that one can somehow divorce the Renaissance
    > from gunpowder, exploration and the printing press is like
    > saying that nuclear power, the space race and electronics are
    > incidental to the 20th century. You don`t get the shifts in social
    > and political systems, the changes to the economics that fostered
    > them, the rise of nationalism, etc. without those processes.

    In a fantasy game with magic, you contend here, we are unable to imagine
    magical substitutes or fantastic substitutes for technology. I argue we can
    imagine a 20th century without nuclear weapons, and can role play there. We
    can imagine a Cerilia without gunpowder and can role play there, despite
    other similarities to an earth culture that had some level of gunpowder
    technology. It can be argued that the relationships of social forces and
    technology is deterministic, but reasonable people can disagree on that
    point. Certain genres of games (eg. steampunk) are based on mixing
    mentalities from one era and the technology of another. When we confront
    the absence of exploration`s impact on Cerilia (say the stimulation of
    commerce) we are able to apply such phenomena to other sources (say the
    patron goddess of wealth). With imagination and an understanding that a
    fantasy game world does provide some latitude in interpreting RL social
    characteristics, verisimilitude can be satisfied.

    After all, the more one feels its neccesary to replicate RL, the more one`s
    game should be in the RW.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #13
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 9:12 AM

    > During The Renaissance many people certainly had a respect for
    > the knowledge and ideals of the peoples from the classical period, but if
    > you were able to transport a 16th century man of learning from his time
    to,
    > say, Corinth in the 5th century BC he`d have an extensive amount of
    > knowledge beyond that of the people of the time, and he`d stick out like
    an
    > alien visitor from Mars.

    You have an insistance on imposing contemporary understainding of the past
    on the past itself. This observation was a discovery in the 18th century.
    The 16th century writers, still in awe of Rome thought that in meaningful
    ways they really had recaptured the past. Why not game based on their
    assumptions rather than ours?

    Sure there is a gulf between the 16th century person and the 5th century
    one, but what of the gulf between the 16th century person`s view of the
    classical world and the 12th century person`s view? To the renaissance
    itself, it was this later gulf that stood out as the meaningful one. With
    this in mind, do I make Cerilia a world in which people are concerned with
    the world they live in, or with the final destination of their immortal
    souls? When the materials say "renaissance" why not suppose that this
    concern with human affiars is as much a part of what is intended, rather
    than gunpowder, which was incidental to the renaissance.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #14
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Arjan,
    What's up with the database? It looks like a one-way conversation here. The only way to see Gary's comments are in Kenneth's replies.;)
    Duane Eggert

  5. #15
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:51 PM 12/29/2002 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

    >What`s up with the database? It looks like a one-way conversation
    >here. The only way to see Gary`s comments are in Kenneth`s replies.;)

    I just looked at the board and my comments showed up for me.... They were
    on the previous page of messages, though.

    Gary

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  6. #16
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    From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

    > You have an insistance on imposing contemporary understainding of the past
    > on the past itself. This observation was a discovery in the 18th century.
    > The 16th century writers, still in awe of Rome thought that in meaningful
    > ways they really had recaptured the past. Why not game based on their
    > assumptions rather than ours?
    >

    Good point. This is not the way I play Birthright, but itis a perfectly
    acceptible, even meritable, one. Keeping this in mind always will improve
    many games - though it can be hard for the players to distance themselves
    from the assumptions and prejudices of OUR day and instead accept the
    assumptions and prejudices of another.

    /Carl



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  7. #17
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Stephen Starfox" <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>
    Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 3:06 AM


    > This is not the way I play Birthright, but itis a perfectly
    > acceptible, even meritable, one.

    Really, all I am trying to suggest is that there is no one right way to
    define what "renaissance culture" should mean for Cerilia. No handfull of
    elements should be neccesary. In a fantasy game we should pick and choose
    what we want to borrow from real life, make up some stuff, and borrow other
    stuff ecclectically from what ever sources appeal to us. If we do this
    sensibly, we can still provide a pleasing game with a sound verisimilitude,
    without being obligated to copy from any source exactly as we find it.

    Because we can offer a variety of definitions of the renaissance, we should
    be able to talk about a variety of elements for use by BR DM`s.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  8. #18
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    Gary,
    I definitely have to agree that the (historical) Renaissance is primarily an era of innovation rather than immitation. Even many of the supposedly "pure" classical sources Europeans were drawing on represented bodies of knowledge and esthetics that had been refined by the Turko-Arabic and Byzantine civilizations.

    I guess what we have to admit is that TSR/WOTC has an imperfect sense of history at best: their products are laughably innaccurate when it comes to ANY observations about an era's culture and technology. Heroic attempts at reversing this trend are found in thier "historical" supplements featuring the vikings, Charlemagne's paladins, etc : none of which were perfect, but at least they were trying. How many A&E or History Channel specials have we all seen featuring the deadliness of the longbow or mace, only to crack open the PH and see these weapons ghettoized in favour of the D&D "cult of the sword." The game designers were obsessed with "tradition" and "game balance"; as a result, they trembled with fear at the prospect of introducing new technologies into the game. Consequently, we have products like Ravenloft which depict people wearing clothing and espousing ideas from the 17th-19th centuries, but still using medieval technology.

    We're left to figure out for ourselves what is meant by "Anuireans, Brechts, Khinasi, elves, and dwarves are the equivalent of Renaissance culture." Mind you, the quote is taken from the "Other Equipment" section of the Rulebook (p.19) so you might assume they're referring to technology. Does that mean liberal humanism is on the rise in Anuire? Are nobles talking about worth over birth and how the perfect courtier must be a master of arms AND letters? I don't see any evidence of that, really. What about a rebirth of "classical" knowledge? From whom? The Andu? The Empire? One of the Adurian states? It's tempting to read the old Anuirean Empire as Rome. If so, and we read the "fall" of the west in 476 B.C. against the death of Emperor Mike, wouldn't that mean the nearest historical equivalent for Anuire should be around the year A.D. 1000? This one's a tough nut to crack. Personally, I'm REALLY looking forward to reading that Dragon article featuring gunpowder in Cerilia: the way it's handled might help me put the BR setting in context.

  9. #19
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Arsulon" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 4:22 PM


    > I definitely have to agree that the (historical) Renaissance is
    > primarily an era of innovation rather than immitation.

    There is no era which is actually imitative. Its impossible. All attempts
    at imitation will be dialects formed between the intended imitation and the
    pre-existing cultural formations. Thus all intended imitation becomes
    innovation. To suggest otherwise is to set up a straw man.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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