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Thread: Refugees

  1. #1
    Has anybody ever dealt with refugees on a large scale or have any ideas on
    how to incorporate a large influx of homeless population?

    I was thinking about including an event that would have thousands fleeing
    their home but I don`t quite know how to handle it.

    Thanks in advance.

    Eosin the Red

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  2. #2
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    Eosin the Red wrote:

    >Has anybody ever dealt with refugees on a large scale or have any ideas on
    >how to incorporate a large influx of homeless population?
    >I was thinking about including an event that would have thousands fleeing
    >their home but I don`t quite know how to handle it.
    >Thanks in advance.
    >Eosin the Red
    >
    In the PBEM ITSOD the DM´s had to handle a similar event - the Gheallie
    Sidhe fraction of the Tuarhievel elves (Rhuandice Tuarlechiem) invaded
    the forest provinces of Dhoesone and formed a Gheallie Sidhe realm which
    later even Rhuobhe joined.

    The human population of the forest provinces in large parts fled to the
    plains provinces of Dhoesone and made the province level of Nolien
    increase without rule action because of the refugees.


    Another example is the way the vile and evil Baron of Ghoere (and a
    brilliant player!) in COG II used - he occupied a province, raised
    levies equal to it´s province level and sent them where he wanted them
    and settled them. If you want refugees actually marching across the map,
    then make them levies who automatically muster and march away.
    bye
    Michael Romes
    (Bannier Andien in ITSOD II)

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  3. #3
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:17 AM 12/27/2002 -0600, Eosin the Red wrote:

    >Has anybody ever dealt with refugees on a large scale or have any ideas on
    >how to incorporate a large influx of homeless population?
    >
    >I was thinking about including an event that would have thousands fleeing
    >their home but I don`t quite know how to handle it.

    A while back I wrote up a "Migration" action. It assume a sort of vague,
    abstract population system (though less vague than that presented in the
    Rulebook, I guess) in which every person in a domain is not necessarily
    accounted for, and that population levels represent a number of people in
    the province based on a "platonic" relationship. That is, the number of
    people in the province is approximately the square of the population level
    in thousands, which for the sake of regularity I round to the nearest
    5,000. The number of people in a level 4 province, for example, would be 4
    x 4 = 16 x 1,000 rounded to 15,000.

    Because of the increasing number of people each population level represents
    some pretty strange results can occur when transferring population
    levels. For example, if one were to shift a level of population from a
    population level 8 province (65,000 people or so) to a level 3 province
    (10,000 people) the level of population from the level 8 province is
    reduced to level 7 (50,000 people.) That means 15,000 people are lost from
    the home province. That would raise the population level of the target
    province from 10,000 to 25,000 people. 25,000 people is population level
    5, a net gain of 2 levels for the single level reduction from the home
    province. That`s a problem for two reasons:

    1. It creates a situation in which it is easier to transfer population
    levels than it is to rule them up, so you could rule a single, higher
    population province and then migrate the population level out of that
    province to gain a net increase that effectively cheats the Rule
    action. This is especially the case if you use population levels that can
    go over 10 as I do.

    2. The math in the above example (migrating a single level from a
    population level 8 province to a create two levels in a population level 3
    province raising it to level 5) is one of the few where the math involved
    in the actual population numbers works out evenly--again, especially if you
    use population levels that can go over 10. More often than not there is an
    irregular number of people, so aside from ending up needing to create a
    rather big table to cross index for every migration for the sake of
    simplicity, that table has a few rather dark gray areas in which the
    resulting number could be interpreted either way.

    Instead I went with a very simple formula, so in the example above the
    population level of the target province is only raised to level 4 (15,000
    people) for a loss of 10,000 "actual civilians" as reflected by the
    population levels. I assume that those people spread out to other
    provinces in small enough numbers so as to not affect their population levels.

    Anyway, here the write up:

    ----------

    Migration
    Type: Domain
    Cost: 1RP/1GB x population level in target province (the one being migrated
    into.)
    DC: 15+level of the target province.
    The migration action moves people from one province (henceforth referred
    to as the "home province") to another (the "target province".) Using this
    action the regent can transfer a level or levels of population from on
    province to another.
    Population levels do not always transfer on a 1:1 basis. The population
    level of the home province must exceed that of the target province for each
    each level of population moved. If the target province has a population
    greater than but not more than twice that of the home province the
    population level of then population levels are transferred at a rate of
    2:1. That is, the population level of the home province must be reduced
    two levels for the target province`s population to raise one. If the
    population level of the home province is less than half that of the target
    province then population levels are transferred at a rate of
    4:1. Migration from a home province with less than a quarter that of a
    target population does not increase a target population level.
    Uprooting people from their homes and getting them to settle in another
    area can be a difficult process. Many people will resist and others will
    take advantage of the confusion to slip away entirely. Many thousands of
    people can be lost in this way. To reflect these losses, the actual
    population numbers are not shifted, only population levels.
    The loyalty ratings of both the home and target provinces take a -1 hit
    during the loyalty phase of the domain turn.

    ----------

    In the case of refugees you could use a variant of the above domain action
    as a sort of random event.

    Hope that helps,
    Gary

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  4. #4
    > Anyway, here the write up:
    >
    > ----------
    >
    > Migration
    > Type: Domain
    > ----------
    >
    > In the case of refugees you could use a variant of the above domain action as a sort of random event.

    Thanks, what I am intending is a *GREAT DEAL* larger and harder to accurately track.

    There are benifits to increasing population but because of the disaffected status, I see more negatives associated with large scale refugees. Lack of infrastructure, rampant disease, ad hock law formation, and a mixture of other random event difficulties. Most of this will ultamitley be in the hands of the DM but the players need to have a way to respond, this provides a nice base to start from.

    Michael -
    Yea, some of my people were "re-settled" for their protection.

    Thanks for the advice.

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  5. #5
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    by geeman
    A while back I wrote up a "Migration" action. It assume a sort of vague,
    abstract population system (though less vague than that presented in the
    Rulebook, I guess) in which every person in a domain is not necessarily
    accounted for, and that population levels represent a number of people in
    the province based on a "platonic" relationship. That is, the number of
    people in the province is approximately the square of the population level
    in thousands, which for the sake of regularity I round to the nearest
    5,000. The number of people in a level 4 province, for example, would be 4
    x 4 = 16 x 1,000 rounded to 15,000.
    I like it.

    by geeman
    Because of the increasing number of people each population level represents
    some pretty strange results can occur when transferring population
    levels. For example, if one were to shift a level of population from a
    population level 8 province (65,000 people or so) to a level 3 province
    (10,000 people) the level of population from the level 8 province is
    reduced to level 7 (50,000 people.) That means 15,000 people are lost from
    the home province. That would raise the population level of the target
    province from 10,000 to 25,000 people. 25,000 people is population level
    5, a net gain of 2 levels for the single level reduction from the home
    province. That`s a problem for two reasons:

    1. It creates a situation in which it is easier to transfer population
    levels than it is to rule them up, so you could rule a single, higher
    population province and then migrate the population level out of that
    province to gain a net increase that effectively cheats the Rule
    action. This is especially the case if you use population levels that can
    go over 10 as I do.

    Not too bad of a problem. The numbers fluke you mention, however, is not neccessarily a bad one--that is bumping 2 (or more) population levels. I would recommend that the migration comes at a cost.

    Something to consider is that forcing a *non-nomadic* population to move should not be free or come without consequence.

    Settling folks to a new province (new houses, businesses, etc) should cost perhaps 1/2 of what it would have cost to build the population from scratch. Since the throng of bodies was already purchased in another province, the regent has already paid his dues, to some extent.

    As far as the originating province, it would retain some of its infrastructure for a while: it was developed to support the larger population, and would likely still support a rapid re-expansion, if the regent wished to build it back up. Re-building the population back up to it's pre-emigre status will not be free (again, maybe 1/2 cost).

    I would also point out that the permanent infrastructure in a vacated territory would begin to deteriorate immediately. After a set amount of time, the cost of restoring a province to its previous larger population level would return to the standard cost; the infrastructure would have fallen into such disrepair that it was essentially useless (think of great city blocks of unused houses, slowly falling in on themselves).

    In nomadic cultures, a regent may very well be able to force population moves without significant costs--the permanent infrastructure to support such a society is not in place (think Mongols); the people expect a life on the trail and are prepared to deal with moving frequently.

    Other factors such as technology and morale of the people would also likely be effected. Folks usually don't like being forced to move. Then again, it could be a natural cultural response to low loyalty, rampant disease or poverty.

    Also, the impact to loyalty caused by a forced move might be abated by offering incentives--X GB.

    Obviously, a complicated domain action could be developed to reflect these aspects of cultural migration--you have what appears IMHO to be a great start. Kudos!

    Ebun

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