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12-24-2002, 01:17 AM #1
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I'm trying to assemble some sort of "codex" ofancient Imperial Law, and was wondering if anyone else has either done this allready, or if they happen to have a few on hand to add to the pot in hopes of making some sort of definitive list.
I've found that such info is generally popular argument material in PBeMs, and it was from such an instance that the idea struck me. In particular, I am grappling with the Rule of Conquest, and the Right by Might. The basis is that it is a law older than the new Gods, a law that was founded in the ancient days of tribal Aduria. It carried over when the tribes migrated, but was "civlized" once the Empire was beginning to form.
Essentially, the strongest guy makes the rules, and what he has the strength to take, he gets the right to keep, until someone stronger is able to take it away in turn. Once the idea of vassalage and liege lords came into being, the law was altered to permit the Chief the right to judge/monitor such instances of the ancient law, by adding an ammendment to it that basically states that if any heirs remain alive to claim the throne, then the conqueror is not legally able to press his claim of dominion over the lands. This of course, led to the practice of ensuring that all heirs were slain conviently during the initial battles.
The entire hing came to be over the Osoerde background in RoE. Raenech holds the throne (by usurpation), yet William (the supposed heir) yet lives, so by this ancient code, Raenech would be Illegally forcing his hold over the Duchy.
Anyone have anything else to add? Any comments/improvements to the above?"You need people of intelligence on this mission... quest... thing."
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12-24-2002, 01:26 PM #2
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morgramen wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1168
>morgramen wrote:
>... or if they happen to have a few on hand to add to the pot in hopes of making some sort of definitive list.
>I`ve found that such info is generally popular argument material in PBeMs, and it was from such an instance that the idea struck me. In particular, I am grappling with the Rule of Conquest, and the Right by Might. The basis is that it is a law older than the new Gods, a law that was founded in the ancient days of tribal Aduria. It carried over when the tribes migrated, but was "civlized" once the Empire was beginning to form.
>Essentially, the strongest guy makes the rules, and what he has the strength to take, he gets the right to keep, until someone stronger is able to take it away in turn. Once the idea of vassalage and liege lords came into being, the law was altered to permit the Chief the right to judge/monitor such instances of the ancient law, by adding an ammendment to it that basically states that if any heirs remain alive to claim the throne, then the conqueror is not legally able to press his claim of dominion over the lands. This of course, led to the practice of ensuring that all heirs were slain conviently during the initial battles.
>The entire hing came to be over the Osoerde background in RoE. Raenech holds the throne (by usurpation), yet William (the supposed heir) yet lives, so by this ancient code, Raenech would be Illegally forcing his hold over the Duchy.
>Anyone have anything else to add? Any comments/improvements to the above?
>
Wasn´t most legal systems, like the famous codex of hammurabbi created
AFTER the realm was established?
Some tribal clans in Aduria certainly could have very different laws and
mostly rural (and uninteresting for role-playing who may lead water into
his field at which time or such...).
I would envision that the first emperor in Cerilia, established a codex
of imperial law like Hammurabi did.
Some minor things, but one that would nicely fit into most campaigns in
Anuire would be rules like:
- only knights are allowed to wear full plate armour,
- only free men are allowed to posses a sword (so normal peasants or
indentured not, and that would be most commoners),
bye
Michael
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12-24-2002, 03:35 PM #3
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On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
> Anuire would be rules like:
> - only knights are allowed to wear full plate armour,
> - only free men are allowed to posses a sword (so normal peasants or
If D&D had a decent economic model, only free men could *afford* to
possess a sword, and it would take the entire economic surplus of a
fair-sized village to keep the local knight in plate, horse and sword.
That is not to say that rules of this sort didn`t exist IRL or couldn`t in
BR -- other contemporary prohibitions of conspicuous consumption were
common, such as certain kinds (colors, styles, fabrics, etc.) of clothing
being legally restricted to nobles or clergy, to try to prevent rich
merchants from showing off and pretending to high social station.
Ryan Caveney
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12-24-2002, 04:35 PM #4
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On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, morgramen wrote:
> I`m trying to assemble some sort of "codex" of ancient Imperial Law,
> [snip] I`ve found that such info is generally popular argument
> material in PBeMs,
True. It would probably not be a bad plan to state up front, "In this
PBEM, Imperial Law reads as follows..." Of course, then you`ll get people
arguing with that, but at least there`d be a framework for the inevitable
discussion. :}
> In particular, I am grappling with the Rule of Conquest, and the Right
> by Might. The basis is that it is a law older than the new Gods,
This is not so much a "law" as merely a description of what actually
happens -- the basic truth of power that you can only have as much as you
can keep. I suppose the part of it that says "you must obey anyone you
can`t overthrow" could be considered a law, but it`s a pretty self-evident
one, and doesn`t really seem likely to influence behavior much. That is,
it says "rebellion is only illegal if you can`t get away with it," in
which case it would be useless to try anyway.
> Essentially, the strongest guy makes the rules, and what he has the
> strength to take, he gets the right to keep, until someone stronger is
> able to take it away in turn.
We need a law to tell us this? All "Right by Might" says is "thou shalt
expect people to do anything they can get away with," which is hardly
news. I would call this a description of the absence of law.
> by adding an ammendment to it that basically states that if any heirs
> remain alive to claim the throne, then the conqueror is not legally
> able to press his claim of dominion over the lands.
OK, now we`re getting somewhere. This is a law worthy of the name. It
has the proper generic format: "though you might be able to get away with
this act, you really oughtn`t try to do it, because it`s naughty."
> This of course, led to the practice of ensuring that all heirs were
> slain conviently during the initial battles.
Well, quite. It also doesn`t address the issue of legitimate heirs who
start rebellions because they feel their elders are being too slow to
retire or die. Into every law, some loopholes must fall.
> The entire thing came to be over the Osoerde background in RoE.
> Raenech holds the throne (by usurpation), yet William (the supposed
> heir) yet lives, so by this ancient code, Raenech would be Illegally
> forcing his hold over the Duchy.
Another very common ancient theory of government holds that a ruler who is
not acting in his people`s best interest is illegitimate. For example, it
was widely considered that getting to be in charge conferred a duty to
distribute largess -- a kenning for king is "ring-giver", because the
Norse held generosity to be one of the great virtues and responsibilities
of rulership. Any society, even a fantasy one, is going to have some
concept that rulership has inherent duties as well as rights.
Although Vosgaard with its worship of Belinik may believe that any law
other than "might makes right" is actually immoral, we should still find
things that kings must do, even if only things like "answer any challenge
to a duel." There the legal system may consist largely of definitions of
what constitutes legitmate challengers, challenges, forms of dueling, time
in which answers are to be given, what happens to the property of duelists
(what goes to the winner, and what stays with the loser`s family -- or do
the loser`s family themselves become property of the winner?), etc., but
there will still be social rituals and proper forms for fulfilling them.
Different regions of Cerilia have different dominant religions, and their
theories of the responsibilites of government ought to follow accordingly.
Brecht rulers may be forbidden (by Sera) to interfere with free trade.
Khinasi rulers may be required (by Avani) to pay pensions to scholars.
Rjurik rulers may have to prove (to Erik) they can still hunt or fish to
symbolically maintain their connection to the people and the land.
Anuirean law, dominated by the religious teachings of Haelyn, should have
immense and highly specific lists of those things a king must do to be
considered legitimate. Raenech probably ignores some of the things he is
supposed to do, but he thinks are foolish or injurious to his pride, power
or treasury. There should be priests of Haelyn preaching against him for
his flouting of these fine points of divine law, as well as priests of
Cuiraecen trying to fight his rule more directly and personally. Or else
he knows all the laws and follows them rigorously in every detail, in an
attempt to convince the temples of Haelyn to support his rule and fight
the rebels for him. Many plots, involving anything from long and complex
philosophical debates to commando raids designed to make the other guy
look bad to the people and the priests, are to be had here.
I think the PS of Tuarhievel is mostly out to lunch, but one thing I think
it gets fairly right about the elven theory of government is the Thorn
Throne -- an artifact used to confer legitimacy upon a sovereign by means
of a test, involving a direct appeal to the Land`s Choice. Such rituals
of asking the land what it thinks "the good of the people" really is ought
to exist in the other cultures, as well -- the duels of Vosgaard may be
part of this thread. I`m pretty sure they`re big believers in trial by
combat as a direct expression of the will of Belinik.
Ryan Caveney
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12-24-2002, 04:35 PM #5
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Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>Anuire would be rules like:
>- only knights are allowed to wear full plate armour,
>- only free men are allowed to posses a sword (so normal peasants or
>
>
>If D&D had a decent economic model, only free men could *afford* to
>possess a sword, and it would take the entire economic surplus of a
>fair-sized village to keep the local knight in plate, horse and sword.
>
Yes, but in a game of whole realms there are plenty of villages to
support such fighters - and the "old law" would prohibit some mercenary
to wear the same full plate armour the knight is allowed.
>That is not to say that rules of this sort didn`t exist IRL or couldn`t in
>BR -- other contemporary prohibitions of conspicuous consumption were
>common, such as certain kinds (colors, styles, fabrics, etc.) of clothing
>being legally restricted to nobles or clergy, to try to prevent rich
>merchants from showing off and pretending to high social station.
>Ryan Caveney
>
To the clothing: Am I the only one, who thougt of Talinie as Calvinists
or perhaps english puritans clothed only in black?
The description of their "work to be rewarded", "you shall be rewarded
in the afterlife according to your work" as in the PS of Talinie and the
whole description sounded like that for me.
And the most importat clothing: ermine fur would be reserved for
aristrocracy of course ;-)
Richt Merchants raise another interesting point: In medieval times in
parts of old germany christians actually were not allowed to give loans
and receive interest for their money which lead in some cities to a
monopoly of lenders of jewish religion (who were among other things not
allowed to own land and basically pushed into the role of moneylenders
as one of the few options to make a living). A similar attitude, not
necesarily base on religion, but noble codex could explain why foreign
guilders in Anuire (Kalien, El-Hadid, Storm Holtson) do not find greater
competition and give an IC reason why not every realm is running it´s
own state guild. OOC nearly every landed regent trys to control the
guilds either himself, or as closely as possible by a vassal.
If the work itself would be seen as "unknightly" or against the religion
(Haelyn as the god of nobility would fit into this) it could explain why
in the 1000 years that have passed independent guilds have vanished in
the face of greedy landed rulers.
bye
Michael Romes
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12-24-2002, 06:30 PM #6
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I´m typing too fast, and making errors:
Michael Romes wrote:
> Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
>> Anuire would be rules like:
>> - only knights are allowed to wear full plate armour,
>> - only free men are allowed to posses a sword (so normal peasants or
>> If D&D had a decent economic model, only free men could *afford* to
>> possess a sword, and it would take the entire economic surplus of a
>> fair-sized village to keep the local knight in plate, horse and sword.
>>
> Yes, but in a game of whole realms there are plenty of villages to
> support such fighters - and the "old law" would prohibit some mercenary
> to wear the same full plate armour the knight is allowed.
>
>> That is not to say that rules of this sort didn`t exist IRL or
>> couldn`t in
>> BR -- other contemporary prohibitions of conspicuous consumption were
>> common, such as certain kinds (colors, styles, fabrics, etc.) of
>> clothing
>> being legally restricted to nobles or clergy, to try to prevent rich
>> merchants from showing off and pretending to high social station.
>> Ryan Caveney
>>
> To the clothing: Am I the only one, who thougt of Talinie as Calvinists
> or perhaps english puritans clothed only in black?
> The description of their "work to be rewarded", "you shall be rewarded
> in the afterlife according to your work" as in the PS of Talinie and the
> whole description sounded like that for me.
>
> And the most importat clothing: ermine fur would be reserved for
> aristrocracy of course ;-)
>
> Richt Merchants raise another interesting point: In medieval times in
> parts of old germany christians actually were not allowed to give loans
> and receive interest for their money which lead in some cities to a
> monopoly of lenders of jewish religion (who were among other things not
> allowed to own land and basically pushed into the role of moneylenders
> as one of the few options to make a living). A similar attitude, not
> necesarily baseD on religion, but noble codex could explain why foreign
> guilders in Anuire (Kalien, El-Hadid, Storm Holtson) do not find greater
> competition and give an IC reason why not every realm is running it´s
> own state guild. OOC nearly every landed regent trys to control the
> guilds either himself, or as closely as possible by a vassal.
> If the work itself would be seen as "unknightly" or against the religion
> (Haelyn as the god of nobility would fit into this) it could explain why
> in the 1000 years that have passed independent guilds have NOT
> vanished in
> the face of greedy landed rulers.
> bye
> Michael Romes
>
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12-24-2002, 06:42 PM #7
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On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
> To the clothing: Am I the only one, who thougt of Talinie as
> Calvinists or perhaps english puritans clothed only in black?
Yeah, the PS does seem to lean very heavily to that interpretation.
> And the most importat clothing: ermine fur would be reserved for
> aristrocracy of course ;-)
The color purple for royalty was another biggie. At various times, the
lengths of the pointy toes on shoes were tightly regulated. Laws about
fashion could get very strange indeed.
> A similar attitude, not necesarily base on religion, but noble codex
> could explain why foreign guilders in Anuire (Kalien, El-Hadid, Storm
> Holtson) do not find greater competition
Or maybe it is religion -- perhaps as you suggest Haelyn is against
commerce somehow, so followers of Avani (neutral) and Sera (very much in
favor) would tend to replace them. Holtson is the odd one -- I think Erik
is much more against big business than Haelyn, but Holtson seems to have
decided life would be better as a Brecht. Actually, it would be
interesting to have this be an ongoing theological debate -- perhaps some
factions of Haelyn`s clergy support trade and engage in it, or at least
don`t fight it, whereas other Haelynite temple regents Contest every guild
that shows up near their holdings.
Ryan Caveney
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12-25-2002, 03:36 AM #8
Ryan Caveney wrote:
> I think the PS of Tuarhievel is mostly out to lunch, but one thing I think
> it gets fairly right about the elven theory of government is the Thorn
> Throne -- an artifact used to confer legitimacy upon a sovereign by means
> of a test, involving a direct appeal to the Land`s Choice. Such rituals
> of asking the land what it thinks "the good of the people" really is ought
> to exist in the other cultures, as well -- the duels of Vosgaard may be
> part of this thread. I`m pretty sure they`re big believers in trial by
> combat as a direct expression of the will of Belinik.
Just been reading a book on Egyptian religion. Isis is originally the throne
itself. Its the the person who sits on the throne who is king. The throne
makes you king. Later as the Horace mythology developed, Isis was personified
as a mother of Horace, so that she was also the mother of the king, since the
king was the personification of Horace.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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12-25-2002, 04:27 AM #9
On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
> Yes, but in a game of whole realms there are plenty of villages to
> support such fighters - and the "old law" would prohibit some mercenary
> to wear the same full plate armour the knight is allowed.
I have a schedule of how many knights a province can support, but its not at
hand. I can re-post it next week. It goes something like this. Every level
of a province supports one minor lord below the provincial count. Each lord
has a number of knights. A province 1 supports something like 4d4 knights (or
housecarls) per lord, for an average of 10 knights. As province level
increases, so does the number of knights per lords, slightly, while the number
of lords is equal to the province level. A province 3 might have 36 knights, a
province 5, maybe 75. Beyond these fellows, the lords and knights, we no
longer find those able to afford plate armor and swords. In my recent posts on
fighting styles, these guys employ other weapons. Mercenaries typicaly don`t
have the ready cash to buy expensive armors and weapons.
Of course the easiest way to fix this problem is to eliminate Heavy Armor
Proficiency for every class except Aristocrat.
> To the clothing: Am I the only one, who thougt of Talinie as Calvinists
> or perhaps english puritans clothed only in black?
> The description of their "work to be rewarded", "you shall be rewarded
> in the afterlife according to your work" as in the PS of Talinie and the
> whole description sounded like that for me.
I think its intended by design that Talinie is Scottish, so Presbyterians it
is. The selection of names (both place and personal), the colors, and cultural
descriptions make Talinie the home of Scottish culture in Cerilia.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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12-25-2002, 10:07 AM #10
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Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>Of course the easiest way to fix this problem is to eliminate Heavy Armor
>Proficiency for every class except Aristocrat.
>
Which would eliminate the reason for the law - when noone but the nobles
can war heavy armour then a law prohibiting
others than knights from wearing it would be senseless ;-)
>I think its intended by design that Talinie is Scottish, so Presbyterians it
>is. The selection of names (both place and personal), the colors, and cultural
>descriptions make Talinie the home of Scottish culture in Cerilia.
>
Is not Mhoried described as scottish Highlands flavour?
bye
Michael
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