Gunpowder

[kgauck]

> Arsulon wrote:
> Kenneth,
> You are, of course, mistaken in suggesting that exploration, gunpowder and
> printing are incidental to the Renaissace.

Sir, I assure you that I am not mistaken. You must define what you mean by
renaissance to speak to this issue. Because I am able to define renaissance to
mean a rediscovery of ancient learning, I can very well ignore all those
historical phenomena not born from such ancient learning (be it Greek and Roman
or Old Andu, &c). I tried to avoid this specific limit in my definition, since
I can count on one hand those who seem happy to recieve doctoral dissertations
on such technical matters (and a tip o` the hat to ye), but I will say that it
should be clear that there are enough renaissance markers to allow you to
imagine a renaissance culture without guns, printers, or America.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

> Oh do share.

The Carthagians who dominated Spain prior to Rome were a merchantile people,
clung to the coast, working inland only to exploit resources that would work
their way to port for commcerial reasons. The geography of Spain and North
Africa can be turned about 50 degrees counter clockwise to get a similar sense
of how trade networks would form and how much direct contact there would be
across the deep water, rather than moving along the coast. Carthaginian Spain
was ruled by a commcercial oligarchy (guilders), rather than warriors or
priests. Some of their interesting cultural tidbits could be used to add an
exoticism to the Brecht, or their religion at least. They were excellent
sailors. Their great rival was the Roman Empire, easily understood as an
analogy to Anuire. The Carthaginians came from somewhere else (Phonecia,
rather than Andu). Carthaginian Spain was highly urbanized, with the purpose
of the towns being markets and processing locales. Key Carthaginian gods were
providers of prosperity, these could be models for Sera. The previous
inhabitants of Spain were the Celto-Iberians. There are three realms of Celto-
Rjuriks on the immediate fringes of Brecht lands. Just to the south of
Carthaginian Spain is Northern Africa, whose occupants in the next millenium,
the Saracens and Berbers, could be a model for Khinasi. Mining was important
for ancient Spain. It was a source of iron, so highly prized that much of
ancient iron would eventually be mined in Spain. There are more mentions of
mining in Havens otGB, than in any of the other books.

Going by a Punic model, a Brecht realm would be ruled by councils of nobles who
saw themselves as merchants, controled a single province, its law, and its
trade, and saw control of law and province as a way to protect and guarantee
trade power. They would pool their GB`s and RP`s in a crisis, and use them
individually to conduct long distance ventures the rest of the time. Much of
the army of the Brecht realms would be mercenaries, and much fo those,
foriegn. If you can imagine Brecht guilders directing mercenary units of
Rjurik, Vos, and Khinasi against the old enemy, Anuire, then you might well be
thinking of ancient Spain.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Because I am able to define renaissance to mean a rediscovery of
> ancient learning, I can very well ignore all those historical
> phenomena not born from such ancient learning (be it Greek and Roman
> or Old Andu, &c).

So what old knowledge are the Anuireans and Brechts rediscovering? On
earth, there was philosophy, art styles, and other cultural bits copied
from ancient Rome and Greece into the `Renaissance` societies. This was
accompanied by technological and political change. When the writers of BR
spoke about Anuire, Brechtur, and Khinasi as `Renaissance`, I always
figured they had to mean technologically at least, because there`s not
much philosophy or art mentioned at all, and no intimation of old
techniques being relearned.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[geeman]

At 08:43 PM 12/25/2002 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:

> > Anuire: c. 1300 England / France, *not* Imperial Rome
>
>Rome is a way better fit. Cultured, sophisticated, decadent, arrogant,
>rule by Law, after all the Tribunes (magistrates) rule Republican Rome.
>And a great Empire, forged by just a few - followed by an inevitable
>fall. Imperators (Emperors of Rome) were, by law, not allowed to hold
>power indefinitely. By disobeying the gods, they sealed their fate.

Those may be (and a few may not be) accurate descriptors of the Anuirean
Empire, but they are very generalized. Most of them (particular titles
aside) could be described as characteristics of any empire viewed in
retrospect not just Rome.

Personally, I balk at Anuirean Empire=Rome analogy for a few reasons, but
mostly because Rome has a decidedly "Mediterranean" aspect to it, if you
will, that I find lacking in most of the descriptions of Anuire`s history
and culture. I don`t know, maybe later northern Italy under the Lombards
or something, but Imperial Rome? Nah. In many ways the Roman Empire was
the politics/society of the polis run amuck, and I don`t get that same vibe
from the Imperial City of Anuire.

> > Brechtur: Hanseatic League (1241-1669 Baltic Germany), *not* ancient Spain
>
>Hanseatic league is a better fit from materials - but from a period POV,
>ancient Spain would have been a wiser choice.

Why do you think Spain would have been wiser?

> > Khinasi: Ayyubid Caliphate (muslims under Saladin), *not* ancient Persia
>
>Somewhere between I think. Not *ancient* Persia, but not Saladin either.
>"Cities of the Sun" is a little weak on content.

Interestingly, this is where I think Spain (under the Moors) would be a
good analogy. There are decidedly mid-Eastern influences, but many Western
ones as well. Maybe it`s just me on this one, but since a few folks have
mentioned the artwork as a reference, the depictions of many Khinasi in
CotS have a more Western African look to me than Eastern African.

> > Personally, I object to gunpowder in the campaign at all... it takes
> away the feel of the
> > world too much.
>
>Yes. Me too.

Having seen a lot of D20 rules regarding firearms I`m less dogmatic in my
objection to firearms in BR than I once was. Oh, I`m still against it, but
it doesn`t strike me as being such a bad idea anymore for those occasions
when someone really wanted to promote that kind of thing. Making them
exotic weapons and very expensive, relatively slow firing and unreliable is
manageable. It`s probably a little unrealistic to make them so difficult
to use, but that appears to be the point, so if one uses those kinds of
rule they`ll have less of an influence on actual play.

The thing about gunpowder, of course, is that with explosives come
cannon. (There are pragmatic reasons why cannon should really come before
personal weapons which is generally not the way gunpowder gets presented in
RPGs.) That is a bit of a tweak in that cannon have a pretty direct
influence on castle building. Social structures tend to lack behind
technological development, though, and there`s a good century of gunpowder
before we see significant change in the nature of nobility, serfdom,
tactics in war, etc.

Gary

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[kgauck]

Daniel McSorley wrote:

> I always figured they had to mean technologically at least,
> because there`s not much philosophy or art mentioned at all,
> and no intimation of old techniques being relearned.

Which pretty much gives us a free hand to associate what ever we want with a
glorious past. In places like Khinasi, that can be a new interest in things
Masetian, in Brechtur it can be pre-imperial Brecht culture, in Anuire a new
interest in imperial institutions, literature, art, aesthetics, philosophy, and
whatever. Personally, I use this as an excuse to Romanize Anuire in the same
way that the renaissance reintroduced classical aesthetics, stoicism, and
military ideas. I think about the Brecht re-establishing their culture by
driving out vestigal Anuirean forms by rediscovering old Brecht culture. Some
of this looks like 19th century German Romanticism.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 12:24 PM 12/25/2002 +0100, Arsulon wrote:

>The first recorded use of gunpowder that I know of is an experiment by
>Chinese scientist Ma Jun in 250 B.C.: it seems he was stuffing bamboo
>stalks with powder and setting them off to see if containment amplified
>the explosion. The first arquebus-like weapons used by the Chinese appear
>in A.D. 1250 or so; however, they`d been using "fire-lances" (sort of
>spears with flamethrower heads) in combat for centuries before that. I
>can only assume the chemical fuel was similar to Greek fire, which the
>Byzantines started using in the 800`s I believe.

I don`t suppose you`d care to list some of your references? I`ve only done
some cursory reading in the background of gunpowder, mostly in relation to
military history texts rather than specific inquiries into gunpowder
development itself.

Gary

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[Arsulon]

Gary,
I really wish I could remember where I picked up those dates for the invention and application of gunpowder: it's just one of those things I read a long while back and occasionally reference in conversation. There's a good Nova article on Chinese inventions/innovations at www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/china/age.html and you could also get some facts from the online Franklin Institute and ThinkQuest library. Let me know if I've screwed up the dates. Man, this debate's really got me wanting to read that Dragon Magazine article...