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  1. #21
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    On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Gary wrote:

    > Another way to look at this distinction, though, is that a "true
    > wizard" isn`t really a "true wizard" until he hits 5th level, at which
    > point his bloodline (or elven heritage) gives him access to the 3rd
    > level magics that "commoners" and non-elves cannot cast.

    I find much to agree with in this interpretation. Also note that in 3e,
    to cast "true magic" defined thusly one also needs an Int of at least 13.

    > There may be hundreds, even thousands of 1st-4th level blooded wizards
    > running around on Cerilia, but since there is very little in the way
    > of magical ability to distinguish such wizards from magicians there`s
    > no point in counting them amongst the "true mages."

    Agreed, under standard rules. I don`t really like that, so IMC I tweak
    them. Since magicians only get higher-level spells in divination and
    illusion, I consider them akin to specialists in those schools and forbid
    them any access to spells from the 2e opposition schools (necromancy,
    evocation, and one which escapes me at the moment). Also, while magicians
    still need material components IMC, blooded wizards do not.

    > Personally, I kind of like this distinction, and wonder if it might
    > even be sensible, therefore, to make True Mage a sort of prestige
    > class available only to scions and those with elven blood in a BR D20

    Possible, but at minimum it needs as many levels as a base class, not just
    five or ten. I also view training as a magician to not generalize well or
    directly to true wizardry -- if a magician somehow gained a bloodline late
    in life, I think he`d be very confused at how differently the mebhaighl
    responded, and would have to learn almost from scratch how to deal with
    it. In 2e I`d have made him dual class; I`m not sure how to handle it yet
    in 3e. I feel supported by the fact that in the BR rulebook, the ability
    score requirements to qualify as a magician are higher than for a wizard,
    which indicates that controlling the same magic (i.e., anything a magician
    is allowed to cast) is just easier if you have the blood for it -- a true
    "natural talent".


    Ryan Caveney

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  2. #22
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
    Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:38 PM

    > Perhaps most Anuirean lords aspire toward warriorship and not wizardry,
    > but the Khinasi esteem wizards highly and would probably have more. It`s
    > not real hard to break that `6 or 7 score` wizards in Cerilia line.

    Although I rather suspect that these Khinasi nobles are dilettante wizards.
    Imagine a character who is 2/3`s Aristocrat and 1/3 Wizard. Many of those
    additional aristocrat skill ranks might be spent on Spellcraft, Knowledge
    (Arcana), Concentration, Alchemy, and so forth. Take Omar ibn Tuarim
    el-Zisef, who is described as a barely competant wizard. I think a 5th
    level Arist/2nd Wiz makes more sense. A character like the Emira of
    Khourane could be a 3rd level Arist/ 10th level Wiz.

    This would conveniently conform to Gary`s counting only characters who wield
    true magic, without forcing characters into the either/or of low adventuring
    levels or high adventuring levels. It also reflects the Khinasi fascination
    with magic without requiring that the only possible outlet of that
    fascination is wizard class progression.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #23
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    On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

    > On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 08:14, irdeggman wrote:
    >
    > While the character may rise and rise in levels, they may be unable to
    > access higher level spells. Thus only strongly blooded characters may
    > stick with wizardry for any time - others may quickly reach the limit of
    > their potential.
    >
    > From a player perspective, none of this becomes a problem. After all,
    > if a player wants to be a powerful wizard, any reasonable DM should
    > allow him/her the resources to potentially achieve the dream.

    And this is precisely the intent of my suggestion -- the people who cause
    me the big headaches in world design are all NPCs, not players. I want
    there to be extra limits on spellcasters, because mid-level wizards are
    just much more able to affect whole countries than even very high-level
    fighters, so I am much more concerned with limiting their number. PCs are
    supposed to change the world by their actions, but too many people with
    high-level spells running around somewhere out there off-camera seriously
    destabilize the game world.

    For players, obtaining a moderate bloodline at character creation is easy,
    and I like the idea of wizards having to worry about hunting down
    awnsheghlien to increase their powers, or wanting to become a source
    holder even for a short while just to have another way to increase their
    bloodline. I also believe in extra goodies for regent wizards -- for
    example, extra levels of spell effect and higher save DCs if casting
    normal spells in a province where they have a source or a ley line -- so I
    am open to the idea of similar extra goodies based on bloodline.

    I think the bloodline -- regency -- mebhaighl -- magic power connection is
    the heart of Birthright, and I like making rules tweaks to make the
    relationship more obvious and potent in game effect, even at the
    individual adventurer scale.


    Ryan Caveney

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  4. #24
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
    Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:19 PM

    > Germanic Huns? The Huns were the ancestors of Hungary not Germany

    The Hungarians are Magyars, a different pastoral invader of the 10th
    century.

    On the other hand the Huns during the 4th century began to take on many
    Gothic tribes who found it better to ally with the great power moving
    through their area than it was to try to oppose them. The Huns themselves
    were probably a Turkic people whose origins are close to the Turkic homeland
    to the north-west of China. The Hunnic confederacy under Attila was no
    longer identifiably an enthic object, but was only a coallition of tribes
    under the leadership of Attila. Certainly it included man Germans,
    including the conquered Ostrogoths and some Visigoths. The Romans who
    oppsed Attila were likewise largely German, although we call them Roman.

    > Yes. Take the PS of Medoere for example. It states that only 5% of the
    > population are nobles (both religious and secular) and only a handful of
    > familys have blooded individuals, and no more than 20 (TWENTY!) people
    > in the whole domain are blooded.

    Surely this means twenty households. 20 people would mean something closer
    to three or four families.

    > Meaning only 20 people in Medoere could hope to become a wizard.
    > Some other books state the same, that blooded characters are very, very
    > rare.

    I figure that there is a noble family for every level of a province. There
    are 9 provincial levels in Medoere, so I would create 9 blooded families who
    might be connected to guilds, temples, sources, or land. These families
    might have three generations and number four or more children in each
    generation. Of course some of these blooded individuals could be
    unconnected to holdings, and just adventuring types. The Enlien line alone
    identifies seven living family members who can all be supposed to be blooded
    (except maybe Saliene). If Suris, her brother Mourtien, or either of her
    two cousins marries some scion and has children, the numbers of blooded
    characters in Medoere grows further. If the Enlien family was totally
    representative, I`d say there are 50 blooded characters in Enlien.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  5. #25
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    On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

    > After all, we have human gods getting destroyed at Deismaar, yet their
    > essence is distributed among all the beings of Cerilia somewhat
    > indiscriminately -- even the "god-less" elves. And even among those
    > races with their own gods or pantheon of gods.

    Yeah, this is weird. It strikes me as very wrong. IMO, each race ought
    to have its own name for the derivations -- for example, the goblins and
    dwarves should have their own complete pantheons and say theirs come from
    their race`s gods, who as Gary suggests may actually be the same
    transcendental beings, just seen in different ways in different cultures.
    I think the goblins, gnolls and orogs ought to view all non-Azrai
    derivations as coming not from the power of his enemies, but rather from
    his divine servants who are falsely left out of the stories the foolish
    humans tell each other. Dwarves might call them by the names of rocks and
    minerals (Iron, Gold, Granite, Coal, etc.; I have not worked out a
    conversion table for this) and elves by the elements (some are easy,
    like Masela = Water and Reynir = Earth).

    > Ideally, Deismaar should have included all those others as well
    > perhaps, and an each to his own with "new" gods inheriting all
    > previous mantles etc. But of course we`d still have a problem with
    > those pesky elves.

    Much of the alternate backstory and metaphysics I have created for my
    interpretation of Cerilia has come from trying to explain this fact.
    What we know about BR history from the rulebook I basically lump in with
    the stuff in the Atlas and just say it comes from the overwhelmingly
    humanocentric viewpoint of Chancellor Dosiere, who is not really reporting
    history when he talks about Deismaar, but instead just giving one highly
    mythologized version out of many. Since the Sidhelien are the only race
    which has many (or any) members who are old enough to remember Deismaar,
    it is my personal opinion that what they have to say about it ought to be
    the most correct.

    IMC, bloodlines existed before Deismaar, at least among the elves and
    dragons. The elves call them by their elemental associations: Air, Water,
    Fire, Earth, Light (aka Energy or Magic, for "Vorynn" and the Positive
    Material Plane), Darkness (aka Entropy, for "Azrai" and the Negative
    Material Plane), and Motion (for "Brenna" and the Ethereal and Astral
    Planes). The very oldest elves with bloodlines actually are elementals,
    some of whom have been wearing humanoid bodies so long they have basically
    forgotten they haven`t always had them and don`t strictly need them.

    I agree with irdeggman that the Sidhelien, with their ability to move
    easily over any terrain without leaving any trace (which, among other
    things, implies that while running through brambles in the rain they never
    tear their clothes or get mud on their shoes), innate magic powers,
    agelessness etc. really seem more like spirits than living beings, and the
    older and more powerful among them I treat exactly that way.

    > On the other hand, there`s no reason why elves can`t have gods. Even
    > if there are no elf priests with priestly powers equivalent to other
    > races - there could still be priests (just not a priest class) - or
    > the priest class might not be available to PCs. It`s possible that elf
    > gods are rarely worshiped and/or never intervene or grant spells etc.

    IMC it is the reverse -- many elves do have priestly powers (such as
    healing and turning/destroying undead) because they are physical
    manifestations of the power of nature itself. (As I`ve said before, their
    basic rulebook description leads me to believe they derive their
    sustenance directly from mebhaighl.) They need no gods, and in fact know
    for a fact that none of things the other races worship actually exist as
    such: IMC, the seven famous beings who fought and died at Deismaar were
    extremely powerful dragons, who had presented themselves to humans,
    goblins, etc. as gods in order to gain followers to help them fight the
    last major draconic civil war, in which nearly all of them died. Then the
    priests who had learned from those dragons how to use the magic of the
    land needed some way to hang on to the social and political power they
    derived from administering the heirarchy the dragons had created to rule
    over their new minions, (or had been successfully brainwashed into
    thinking their patrons really were divine, and needed some way to explain
    to themselves why they still had their powers, as they had bought the lie
    that "Azrai" et al. provided the power, instead of just the skill to use
    power that was just lying around) so they invented the story that some of
    the famous humans who had led the human armies of the various dragon
    factions had not died horribly, but instead ascended to godhood. Purely
    fictitious, but very useful for maintaining their priests` positions at
    the top of the social pecking order and the peace of mind of the true
    believers. They went on teaching their rituals of magic use just the way
    they had been taught by the dragons -- there are now and never were any
    gods to grant spells; instead there are just a variety of different
    rituals for controlling mebhaighl. Magicians and priests can do different
    subsets of the whole thing with somewhat different methods, but only
    elves, the surviving dragons and blooded wizards can actually do it all,
    or really do any of it "right".

    > At the end of the day - we have a land that is "divinely charged" with
    > the essence of human gods. It comes as no surprise that to tap this
    > reservoir of energy, a spark of the same essence is required within
    > the being attempting the controlling.

    IMO, the power was always in the land, and in different amounts in people.
    Stories of gods IMC are just fanciful attempts to explain a kind of
    physical truth that most non-elves still just don`t understand.

    > And lastly - is all blood somewhat similar? Could the essence be
    > linked somehow to the oxygen-linking/carrying qualities of blood?

    "Midichlorians" does sound a lot like "mitochondria", doesn`t it? =)


    Ryan Caveney

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  6. #26
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    On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > Although I rather suspect that these Khinasi nobles are dilettante
    > wizards. Imagine a character who is 2/3`s Aristocrat and 1/3 Wizard.
    > This would conveniently conform to Gary`s counting only characters who
    > wield true magic, without forcing characters into the either/or of low
    > adventuring levels or high adventuring levels. It also reflects the
    > Khinasi fascination with magic without requiring that the only
    > possible outlet of that fascination is wizard class progression.

    Absolutely! Just a "Me too."


    Ryan Caveney

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  7. #27
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
    Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:28 PM

    > Also, while magicians still need material components
    > IMC, blooded wizards do not.

    Does their bloodline automatically act as a substitute for spell componants?
    Do they need to take a feat to activate this power? Do you require the
    replacement of a focus (perhaps a dynastic symbol) or a staff (as Gandalf)
    to activate this blood power? Are some spells with particularly expensive
    componants exempt?

    > I also view training as a magician to not generalize well or directly
    > to true wizardry -- if a magician somehow gained a bloodline late in
    > life [...] would have to learn almost from scratch how to deal with it.

    What about using the 3e mechanic of half caster levels?

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  8. #28
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
    Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:54 PM

    > I like the idea of wizards having to worry about hunting down
    > awnsheghlien to increase their powers, or wanting to become a source
    > holder even for a short while just to have another way to increase their
    > bloodline.

    I have given blooded PC`s bloodline bonuses for acting as a champion for a
    realm (without any formal connections to the rulers). If great
    (multi-adventure) opponants who threaten a specific realm are defeated, a
    boost of several blood points seems appropriate. The land has rewarded the
    hero. If a blooded opponant is defeated and blood theft occurs, there is no
    additional gift of the land.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #29
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    On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > If great (multi-adventure) opponants who threaten a specific realm are
    > defeated, a boost of several blood points seems appropriate. The land
    > has rewarded the hero.

    I agree. For regents, since particularly bad resolutions of random events
    can lose them RP and even blood points, so too should particularly good
    ones gain them one or both.


    Ryan Caveney

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  10. #30
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    On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
    > > Also, while magicians still need material components
    > > IMC, blooded wizards do not.
    >
    > Does their bloodline automatically act as a substitute for spell
    > componants?

    Yes.

    > Do they need to take a feat to activate this power?

    No. It`s an extra class feature of gaining level one in Wizard. And
    magicians (unblooded spellcasters of any kind, actually, including priests
    and bards without bloodlines) cannot take this feat, nor Still or Silent
    Spell. Doing magic without a bloodline is irreducibly difficult.

    > Do you require the replacement of a focus (perhaps a dynastic symbol)
    > or a staff (as Gandalf) to activate this blood power?

    I hadn`t thought about it, but I am inclined to say no. I imagine some
    wizards are first taught that way, but I don`t think the prop is
    essential. The magic is in their blood, so they shouldn`t need anything
    outside their own bodies to do magic. I don`t think Gandalf strictly
    *needed* his staff either, any more than Thor needed Mjollnir to kill
    giants -- the tool just made him even better at it. In game terms, I`d
    make Gandalf`s staff do something like provide the benefits of Maximize or
    Extend Spell without requiring him to expend extra levels from his daily
    list. Doing low magic like a magician always requires props, but the true
    wizard can in time learn to do true magic by will alone.

    > Are some spells with particularly expensive componants exempt?

    Yes. However, such spells can be cast without the expense (or with
    reduced expense), either by forgoing some number of caster levels` worth
    of effect or by sacrificing hp (again, the magic is, almost literally, in
    their blood). Regent wizards may use RP in place of expensive components,
    if for some reason they find gold that hard to come by.

    > > I also view training as a magician to not generalize well or directly
    > > to true wizardry -- if a magician somehow gained a bloodline late in
    > > life [...] would have to learn almost from scratch how to deal with it.
    >
    > What about using the 3e mechanic of half caster levels?

    Yes, that`s about right. A slow process of learning to use higher-level
    wizard spells ought to be incorporated, also -- a Magician 14 shouldn`t be
    able to learn Limited Wish the first day he has a bloodline. He needs to
    start small, and learn a new way of interacting with mebhaighl, lest it
    get out of control. I am tempted to say he should in fact become a Wizard
    7 / Expert 7, but that seems too punitive. This is why I liked 2e
    dual-and-multi-classing`s use of separate XP tracks: in this case, gaining
    those first few levels in the new class ought to be really easy.

    What I might like better is perhaps to say that on day one the Magician
    14 ought to become a Magician 13 / Wizard 1, and as he works his way
    through some number of XP he gradually changes to M12/W2, then M11/W3 and
    so on until he becomes entirely a wizard. Maybe this happens on the day
    he becomes a 15th-level character, or maybe it takes much shorter or
    longer, but I would say that some process of relearning ought to take
    place either in place of or alongside the usual XP progression.


    Ryan Caveney

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