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Thread: Leadership Feat

  1. #21
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Peter Lubke

    There is in my campaign. Women in Anuire and (to a lesser extent) Brechtur have far fewer rights.[...]
    Why? O.K., in the BR book about Michael Roele (sorry, but I forgot the name) it was "normal" to sell woman as a wife to a noble, if blooded. But since this is some hundred years ago, I thought, meanwhile are woman equal righted (especially in a game!!!). A question: Why woman are discriminated in Brechtür (this part is based on the 17th century and I think, the rights are a little bit better than in middle age)? If you like to copy everything, why don't start to create those religious hats for Khinasi like woman must wear in Iran or in the past of Afghanistan? (Was black humor and I hope, you don't!)

    In our campaign it is normal (we have a very harsh female player) to get, what you want. If she is discriminated by someone, she kills him simply (if she is in good mood)!
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  2. #22
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    On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 19:20, Ariadne wrote:

    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1125
    >
    > Ariadne wrote:
    >
    Originally posted by Peter Lubke
    >
    > There is in my campaign. Women in Anuire and (to a lesser extent) Brechtur have far fewer rights.[...]
    > Why?



    O.K., in the BR book about Michael Roele (sorry, but I forgot the name) it was
    "normal" to sell woman as a wife to a noble, if blooded. But since this is
    some hundred years ago, I thought, meanwhile are woman equal righted
    (especially in a game!!!). A question: Why woman are discriminated in Brechtür
    (this part is based on the 17th century and I think, the rights are a little
    bit better than in middle age)? If you like to copy everything, why don`t
    start to create those religious hats for Khinasi like woman must wear in Iran
    or in the past of Afghanistan? (Was black humor and I hope, you don`t!)

    Well, because it is a game - I wanted a bit more variety between the
    human cultures. (and as DM I get to make the rules - tee hee - when I`m
    allowed to).

    Anuireans tend to be shorter than Rjurik and Vos too (although that`s
    already in the rulebook). My Anuireans are based on a late Roman-Empire
    model (empire in decline). They have lots of agriculture, and loads of
    wealth - generally (historically) this concentrates in the hands of
    fewer and fewer individuals leading to a situation where women
    (especially noble women) have less duties, leading to less rights,
    leading to (after many years) a kind of second class citizen (if not
    being outright chattels of the males). The rights of women in the late
    medieval and renaissance periods were in fact worse than earlier -- ay
    Nesirie! -- could it be true? (Plus we shouldn`t disregard the effect of
    a faith like Haelyn on such a culture)

    On the other hand in Vosgaard and Rjurik, women share equally in the
    work and rulership - there are far fewer social distinction (less wealth
    too for that matter) - a strong woman can certainly rule in her own
    right - (plus the average height of such women - raised in cultures that
    have a more protein rich diet - will be much higher - 5`10 to 6`4 is
    average!) Do not mess with these gals! In Vosgaard particularly the
    Torva Vos, all members of the tribe must contribute or perish - and
    female warriors can prove their worth as easily as men. The great
    distinction among the Rjurik and the Vos (particularly the Vos) is
    between the free and the unfree (not necessarily slaves though).

    I define Brechtur to be somewhat like the Anuireans, and in the ways of
    commerce - property rights, inheritances, etc -- even worse in their
    treatment of women. Women cannot own property in their own right in
    Brechtur (although they can hold it as custodian for a family - woe
    betide a Brecht women without children or younger brothers - breed baby
    breed), although their general stature and situation is higher. A strong
    woman will find a way though! (it`s part of the challenge)

    Ah, the Khinasi! Yes, and no. You have to consider the role of Avani (a
    female god) as patroness to these people. (Sera softens the attitude in
    Brechtur too, but have you noticed how Cuiraecen has almost supplanted
    her?) I find that there is a wider variance in Khinasi. There are
    Khinasi nomads (some plains states esp Binsada) where women have 100%
    equal rights (as Rjurik and Vos). Then there are the affluent city
    states, where the population of the realm is concentrated in the cities
    - lots of wealth and trade again - but it`s more equal -- harems do
    occur, but no women in veils.
    The Khinasi have a structured/tiered society --- but the head of a named
    family is as likely to be male as female -- your rights may depend on
    who happens to rule your family group. A woman born to a male hegemony
    is on the outer - but the same is true for a man born to a matriarchal
    dynasty.



    >
    > In our campaign it is normal (we have a very harsh female player) to get,
    what you want. If she is discriminated by someone, she kills him simply
    (if she is in good mood)!

    We have two female players - who both play female characters. One is
    pretty much full-time and the other is a "floater" - okay there`s two
    floaters (I change that to three players). Seeing as how the main female
    character is Rjurik, it`s not out of character for her to be pretty much
    that way too -- but killing someone has landed her in trouble more than
    once.

    Those Anuireans are insufferable stuck-up pigs anyway! (as well as being
    decadent and weak) Her ... ummm spear (very quiet chuckle) is always
    hard and to the point.

    (Heather has mellowed since moving in with Chris - and getting a dog -
    I`m not sure which event is the cause ...)

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  3. #23
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    I am a male who enjoy playing female characters. But to me it is pointless
    to play a female who has the same rights and opportunities as a male - then
    I could just as well be playing a male character. Thus, for me, a part of
    the fantasy of playing a female character is diminished if the sexes are
    equal in all ways.

    For a female player, this would probably not be so. The female player in my
    Birthright group plays a character pretty much like you describe - and her
    (male) relatives have had to cover for her crimes on many occasions - though
    she has yet to murder someone over somethig like this. That is fantasy for
    her - playing an "unfettered" female character.

    In my world, about 1/2 of women live "active" lives comparable to those of
    men. They go to war and fight or choose some other active character class.
    About 1/2of them don`t - they live more traditional lives as mothers,
    housewives and so on. But it must be remembered that managing a
    pre-industiral household is by no means a light chore - these women have
    plenty of things to do and much responsibility. It is just not the same kind
    of responsibility that men have.

    /Carl


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
    Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:20 AM
    Subject: Re: Leadership Feat [2#1125]


    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1125
    >
    > Ariadne wrote:
    >
    Originally posted by Peter Lubke
    >
    > There is in my campaign. Women in Anuire and (to a lesser extent) Brechtur
    have far fewer rights.[...]
    > Why? O.K., in the BR book about Michael Roele (sorry, but I forgot the
    name) it was "normal" to sell woman as a wife to a noble, if blooded. But
    since this is some hundred years ago, I thought, meanwhile are woman equal
    righted (especially in a game!!!). A question: Why woman are discriminated
    in Brechtür (this part is based on the 17th century and I think, the rights
    are a little bit better than in middle age)? If you like to copy everything,
    why don`t start to create those religious hats for Khinasi like woman must
    wear in Iran or in the past of Afghanistan? (Was black humor and I hope, you
    don`t!)
    >
    > In our campaign it is normal (we have a very harsh female player) to get,
    what you want. If she is discriminated by someone, she kills him simply (if
    she is in good mood)!
    >
    >
    >
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  4. #24
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kgauck

    [...] Ah, the Khinasi! Yes, and no. You have to consider the role of Avani (a female god) as patroness to these people. (Sera softens the attitude in Brechtur too, but have you noticed how Cuiraecen has almost supplantedher?) I find that there is a wider variance in Khinasi. [...]
    Yes, I've noticed (my character is one of his high priestesses of Aftane). The things you told about Khinasi I agree with (but it still sounds a little bit exotic to create a harem [male or female]).

    Originally posted by kgauck

    [...] Seeing as how the main female character is Rjurik, it`s not out of character for her to be pretty much that way too -- but killing someone has landed her in trouble more than once. [...]
    She loves to play Vos or Rjurik women and gets in trouble very often, but she doesn't want to learn (and I think, it's fun). In many things she seems to be identically to your player. ;)



    Originally posted by Birthright-L (Starfox)

    But to me it is pointless to play a female who has the same rights and opportunities as a male - then I could just as well be playing a male character.
    I can't agree with that (O.K., I'm female and I play only female characters), but I wouldn't play a male only because I want more rights! I play adventurers (as every PC, I think) and those aren't mothers and rise children (except as a short break of one to two years) and definitively no housewives. Most have a little problem of getting enough time for other things apart from adventuring, but they will live on their own ways and fight for it.
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  5. #25
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    What the hell is going on here?


    1. In the D&D game there is traditionally no difference between male and female characters. No ability adjustements, no feat and skill adjustement. So in the pure core rules male and femals are equal.

    2. One could discuss, if a "realistic" middle-age campaign handles this different. In principal, one could do it as he like, but this is not the common way of doing it. All official campaign worlds gave male and females the same rights. This is the case for FR and also for BIRTHRIGHT.
    Take a look at the Cerilian sourcebooks. There a many female regents, many female mages, females in leading positions, female guild masters, female temple leaders. These are the official rules.

    As a conlusion let me point out again that in D&D males and females are equal per definitionem. Any other guy who has other points of view had never played with females or does not play BIRTHRIGHT and D&D!
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  6. #26
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:01 AM

    > it still sounds a little bit exotic to create a harem [male or female]).

    One of the reaons to play role playing games is to experience the exotic.

    > I can`t agree with that (O.K., I`m female and I play only female
    > characters), but I wouldn`t play a male only because I want more rights!
    > I play adventurers (as every PC, I think) and those aren`t mothers and
    > rise children (except as a short break of one to two years) and
    definitively
    > no housewives. Most have a little problem of getting enough time for other
    > things apart from adventuring, but they will live on their own ways and
    fight
    > for it.

    The male characters are exceptional in regards their own gender`s typical
    behavior as well, just not quite so much. Just like no one wants to play
    the dotting mother and matriarch who runs a household, neither does anyone
    want to play the duitiful father who stays at home and oversees his lands.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Azrai" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:36 AM


    > 1. In the D&D game there is traditionally no difference between male
    > and female characters. No ability adjustements, no feat and skill
    > adjustement. So in the pure core rules male and femals are equal.

    That is in large measure because D&D presumes there are no families, just
    independent adventurers. Families, as they exist, are mostly used as hooks
    by putting them at risk the adventurer must rescue them.

    > 2. One could discuss, if a "realistic" middle-age campaign handles
    > this different. In principal, one could do it as he like, but this is not
    the
    > common way of doing it. All official campaign worlds gave male and
    > females the same rights.

    Can we dispense with the "rights" language. Rights are granted by a
    governing authority. There is no governing authority who guarantees equal
    rights. There is a convention by the publishers to be inclusive. Gaming
    should be open to both males and females, but as I mentioned in my reply to
    Ariadne that doesn`t mean we have to model a society based on the premicises
    of modern societies. I think its sufficient to observe that all adventurers
    and PC`s are exceptional and are able to transcend what is commonly done by
    most people. Even in the middle ages, 10% of people did not marry, and so
    there were some leading women. Gaming just tends to boost that ratio a bit
    in the favor of women. It doesn`t explicitly equalize it.

    > This is the case for FR and also for BIRTHRIGHT. Take a look at
    > the Cerilian sourcebooks. There a many female regents, many female
    > mages, females in leading positions, female guild masters, female
    > temple leaders. These are the official rules.

    Counting is loads of fun, because it does often reveal just what the
    situation is on the ground, and its often different from initial
    perceptions. My database of published BR characters is based on Anuire in
    part of Brechtuer. I have 169 characters, of which some of offspring.
    Let`s count all of them and not just limit ourselves to rulers. I count 48
    females, or just under a third. That`s not equal, its twice as many men.
    And as you say, "These are the official rules."

    > As a conlusion let me point out again that in D&D males and females
    > are equal per definitionem. Any other guy who has other points of
    > view had never played with females (or even never talked to one), or
    > does not play BIRTHRIGHT and D&D!

    D&D aims to be equally inviting to males and females, it does not say that
    NPC women don`t often miss out on adventuring opportunities because of the
    need to raise their children. While I will agree with the presumption that
    male and female PC`s should be equally viable, why insist that NPC society
    cannot reflect real societies? We know from cross-cultural examiniation
    that such requirements as compatibility with childcare (esp. nursing), the
    greater expendability of males from the breeding population, the greater
    upper body strength of males, and the economy of effort that goes with the
    fact that males are already doing dangerous things far from home. We might
    ignore the issue of strength for PC`s (though earlier editions of D&D
    didn`t), but seeing how we focus on things like population growth - a
    perennial topic on this list - we must imagine that women are not getting
    themselves killed by the scores in battles, mines, woodlands, and all the
    other dangerous places. As long as the most fertile women have sexual
    access to men, the population continues, albeit without the labor of the
    lost men. The loss of women is far more demographically significant. So,
    again, why insist that NPC women don`t have a greater likelihood to be home
    with their children? Especially when it is clear that not all women do
    this, and PC females are not constrained?

    Finally, don`t insult people you don`t know. I`m married with two daughters
    and I have a sister. That doesn`t mean I insist role playing must be
    politically correct.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #27
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    Sorry, not meant as a personal insult. My point was that people with this special opinion maybe do not have any females in their gaming group.

    I still claim the following: The starting point of the discussion was to invent different rule mechanics for males and females. I do not care if the female quote is 1/3 or 1/2 (which statisticly is not a big difference), I do not care if your typical female NPC is a housewife.

    I do care if female have game mechanic restrictions. tell that fhielie the sword of tuornen.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  8. #28
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    On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Ariadne wrote:
    > Why? O.K., in the BR book about Michael Roele (sorry, but I forgot the
    > name) it was "normal" to sell woman as a wife to a noble, if
    > blooded. But since this is some hundred years ago, I thought,
    > meanwhile are woman equal righted (especially in a game!!!). A
    > question: Why woman are discriminated in Brechtür (this part is based
    > on the 17th century and I think, the rights are a little bit better
    > than in middle age)? If you like to copy everything, why don`t start
    > to create those religious hats for Khinasi like woman must wear in
    > Iran or in the past of Afghanistan? (Was black humor and I hope, you
    > don`t!)

    The Khinasi are more like "Arabian Nights" merchant arabs or persians than
    modern fundamentalist muslims. The burka isn`t period :)

    > In our campaign it is normal (we have a very harsh female player) to
    > get, what you want. If she is discriminated by someone, she kills him
    > simply (if she is in good mood)!

    And you don`t enforce consequences for murder? I`d have more of a problem
    with your campaign than one which uses medieval gender biases for flavor.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  9. #29
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    I should start out by noting that I really don`t like the Leadership
    feat. Aside from it being amazingly imbalanced, vaguely worded, easily
    misinterpreted, that it has very little to do with a character`s actual
    development, doesn`t have much to do with how characters might attract
    followers from a role-playing standpoint, and has an extraordinary "wham-o"
    effect if taken at higher levels, I just don`t think giving a player access
    to a whole other character/characters through a feat is the way to go.

    Instead, I think what would make more sense is to use a reputation system
    similar to that originally presented in the WoT. Followers/cohorts/LTs
    could appear based on the overall reputation score of the
    PC/scion/regent. The reputation score itself might look much like the
    "leadership score" from the Leadership feat, but no actual feat need be
    burnt in order to get it, or one could just use a system like that in the
    WoT in which a character makes a Reputation check upon leveling up to
    determine whether or not he attracts followers. That is, a certain DC
    check is made and the results of that check give the PC a certain number of
    levels to spend on as many followers as he likes. Followers who have NPC
    class levels count as 1/2 that of other character classes.

    Now, I personally draw a further distinction between characters with core
    classes and those with NPC classes. Followers core classes can operate as
    LTs at the domain level, while those with NPC classes can act as advisors
    (from the Book of Rulership.) I also assign different amounts of points to
    spend on ability scores for those two types of characters. NPCs who get
    the core class/LT "package" get the standard array (8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15)
    while those who have NPC class levels/advisors have a lower "average array"
    (8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13) or enough points to spend on Table 2-1 to roughly
    equate to those ability scores. I guess one way to look at this is to see
    it as similar to the difference between "cohorts" and "followers" in the
    Leadership feat.

    In addition to the modifiers presented on the Leadership feat description
    (with a few tweaks here and there) I`d go with a few additional
    bloodline/domain level influences like:

    +1 Minor bloodline
    +2 Major bloodline
    +3 Great bloodline
    +4 True bloodline
    +1 Each 3 levels of province population controlled (round down.)
    +1 Each 5 levels of law, guild or temple holdings controlled (round down.)
    +1 Each 7 levels of source holdings controlled (round down.)

    One could also use modifiers similar to those that determine the loyalty of
    provinces in the Rulebook:

    +1 Success in war
    +1 Low tax rate
    +1 Success in adventure action that increases fame (DM`s discretion.)

    Using a system like that (a bit more intelligently and completely
    articulated than that above) would eliminate the need for Leadership
    feat. Further, it could interact with character classes by making bonuses
    to reputation a feature of certain classes. The knightly prestige classes
    might get a +2 to his reputation score at to reflect his potential to
    attract a squire or page. Other prestige classes would be apt (war priest,
    highwayman maybe) and one could even give a +1 per level to reputation
    score for a Noble character class.

    Gary

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  10. #30
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    It always strikes me as odd in a game with dragons, giants, wizards and
    participant gods that a modern take on gender equity becomes the issue that
    breaks a person`s ability to suspend their disbelief. We rarely see RPGs
    that accurately portray the rampant skin infections of the middle ages, the
    horrific plumbing or the prevalence of diseases involving the lower GI
    tract, all of which are at least as realistic as female "second class"
    citizenship. In fact, "adventuring" itself is a pretty ridiculous concept
    in the D&D sense. A female adventurer might be marginally more ridiculous
    than a male one, but why bother drawing that line at gender? If one were
    going to posit "adventures" in the first place, social class seems more apt.

    Gary

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