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Thread: Leadership Feat

  1. #31
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    On Fri, 2002-12-06 at 03:01, Ariadne wrote:

    >(but it still sounds a little bit exotic to create a harem [male or female]).
    >

    Aw c`mon -- never been unable to decide between two potential partners
    you like? What if, culturally, that was acceptable -- in fact lot`s of
    people do it all the time. (in RL it`s called "cheating" or now more
    acceptably "playing" - a softening of attitude)

    Then take it a bit further.

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  2. #32
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:53 AM 12/6/2002 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:

    > >(but it still sounds a little bit exotic to create a harem [male or
    > female]).
    >
    >Aw c`mon -- never been unable to decide between two potential partners
    >you like? What if, culturally, that was acceptable -- in fact lot`s of
    >people do it all the time. (in RL it`s called "cheating" or now more
    >acceptably "playing" - a softening of attitude)
    >
    >Then take it a bit further.

    If you use the Leadership feat to reflect this "situation" that`s a little
    pat, isn`t it? I mean, problem solved. Boom, gotcha both (or all three
    maybe four if you OD on your Vitamin E.) Why would anyone with a libido
    adventure after hitting 9th level? Burn some feats on Leadership....
    retire into domestic bliss for all eternity. Brigham Young never had it so
    good.

    Gary

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  3. #33
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Azrai

    Take a look at the Cerilian sourcebooks. There a many female regents, many female mages, females in leading positions, female guild masters, female temple leaders. These are the official rules.
    There you are right, the landed regents of Thalinie, Medoere and (if I'm right) Roesone are examples. Maybe they are less often than males, but they can't be ignored (further no one knows how much male regents have a true female regent in their backs)! And as Azrai pointed out: Try to command Fhiele (or any priestess of Cuiraécen) around!


    Originally posted by Birthright-L (Daniel McSorley)

    And you don`t enforce consequences for murder? I`d have more of a problem with your campaign than one which uses medieval gender biases for flavor.
    There is one problem: She always plays the landed regent (and executes her own laws)... ;)


    Originally posted by Peter Lubke

    Aw c`mon -- never been unable to decide between two potential partners you like?
    Well, this bases on the character you play and no, I personally hadn't this problem until now...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  4. #34
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Gary,

    For some of us (perhaps only a very few of us) part of the appeal of gaming
    is escaping modernity, either for a post-modern Star Trek or a pre-modern BR
    gaming experience. Why should we be obligated to draw the line on the
    politically correct side of gender equity, especially after all the
    assurances provided by this author that PC`s exceptionally extended to
    gender? Not only does my campaign inhabit a world in which premodern
    constraints limit NPC women, but so does pre-modern hygiene, disease (as
    though I have not posted enough on disease, the inadequacy of a small cadre
    of spellcasters to heal the world, and a revision of the Heal skill to
    eliminate automatic cures), and even social class. Since you have
    specifically complained about my BR conceptions of class ideology in the
    immediately subsequent post (4:42 pm), it certainly appears that you have a
    problem with the very application of a pre-modern ideology in gaming no
    matter how it manifests. I rather prefer my NPC`s to have skin infections,
    GI infections, and to die prematurely. And I like a Heal skill and cure
    spell environment that can`t fix the problem for any but the lucky few, of
    whom the PC`s are numbered. Furthermore, I like a social order in which a
    hierarchy is considered natural, proper, and ordained by the heaven. Where
    both social perceptions and metaphysical reality reflect a top down world in
    which the will of heaven is expressed in earth by an elite, be they priests,
    kings, or whomever. I don`t create such a world because I like it better
    than the one I inhabit, I create it because its different. The same could
    be said for gaming in a post-apocalyptic world, a Cthulhu setting,
    Ravenloft, or a any number of other settings which are less than suitable
    for family living.

    Finally, I am happy to hear what other people do and think about in their
    own games. I will take my part in describing what I do and think. I`m not
    so happy to be scolded because someone thinks my gaming priorities are
    misplaced.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  5. #35
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:48 PM 12/6/2002 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    >For some of us (perhaps only a very few of us) part of the appeal of gaming
    >is escaping modernity, either for a post-modern Star Trek or a pre-modern BR
    >gaming experience. Why should we be obligated to draw the line on the
    >politically correct side of gender equity, especially after all the
    >assurances provided by this author that PC`s exceptionally extended to
    >gender?

    You keep asking the question, though. I`m not attacking your priorities
    (frankly, I couldn`t be bothered) I`m just trying to answer the
    question. More often than not I get the feeling you`re not really looking
    for responses to particular posts, you`d rather just put stuff out into the
    BR community for readers to digest at their leisure... which is all
    good. The more material out in the electronic world related to BR the
    better. In this case, however, you posed the question several times, and
    that read to me like you were interested in a dialogue--or at least
    expected some response. When I read, "why insist that NPC society cannot
    reflect real societies?" and "So, again, why insist that NPC women don`t
    have a greater likelihood to be home with their children? Especially when
    it is clear that not all women do this, and PC females are not
    constrained?" they don`t strike me as rhetorical. Anyway, that response is
    twofold. Here it is in hopefully clearer (and certainly more verbose) terms.

    #1 Personal aesthetic (read: fun.) I`m not usually on the majority side of
    an issue, but I`m under the impression that I am on this one. That is, I
    don`t get that much pleasure from role-playing gender inequality, or skin
    disease, or irritable bowels. In fact, I lump those things in pretty much
    the same container of the stuff that I am escaping when I engage in the
    hobby. Oh, I don`t deal with many diarrhetic feminists with bad skin very
    often in real life--maybe once or twice a month or so--but my even
    occasional dealings with them (and their chest-thumping moronic, male
    counterparts) are enough to satisfy my every need to deal with that area of
    life, so I don`t bother to recreate them in a fantasy setting during my
    hours of leisure. For pretty much the same reasons, a certain amount of
    social class conflict is fine in my games, but I don`t want to turn a
    role-playing session into an exercise in Marxian vs. pre-capitalist
    ideology. It`s no skin off my nose if the skin comes off the noses of NPCs
    IYC but--since you asked--I think that when most people escape into BR/D&D
    they tend to escape further afield than you appear to prefer. Personally,
    I occasionally play more gritty and "real" RPGs, but that`s not what I`m
    looking for when I pick up my BR/D&D materials. Why not more realism in
    BR/D&D? Because the material doesn`t particularly lend itself to more
    realistic interpretations, and that`s because it wasn`t developed with such
    interpretations in mind. There are many campaign/game systems (one or two
    are even D20) where a more realistic interpretation was the intent, but I
    wouldn`t count BR as one of them.

    So, to conclude reason #1, "why insist?" Well, I don`t think anyone really
    did insist, but to that extent that they did it would be because they find
    it more fun to play that way. When it comes to such issues I aim for just
    enough "realism" so that players can maintain their suspension of
    disbelief. Much more than that starts to bog down play in my experience,
    and I start to lose my "audience." (Interestingly, that`s the case whether
    I`m playing or DMing. Too much realism loses the DM just as surely as too
    much can lose the players.) Now, that`s not to say your games aren`t
    fun. Some people "draw the line" further along the "realism" scale than
    others, and there`s no "right way" here.

    #2 Rationalizing the irrational. In a fantasy setting with all its
    accoutrements (dragons, gods, magics, etc.) the answer to the question,
    "Why insist that NPC society cannot reflect real societies?" is what forms
    the basic rationale for the aforementioned escapism. That is, precisely
    because it is a fantasy setting. The process of fantasizing a game world
    that eliminates the need for PCs to suffer a hideous skin rash (unless
    inflicted by a mummy or some such DM tool) is the same one that creates
    participant gods, dragons, elves, etc. and can be just as easily applied to
    the society of the gaming world to create what some people deride as
    "politically correct" attitude towards gender. (People use different
    meanings for the term "politically correct" so hard to tell what is meant
    exactly by using it in this context. It has, however, come to be a
    generally derogatory term, so I assume it`s being used in the same sense
    here.) If one posits a degenerate orog society, it`s not such a leap to
    posit a more "enlightened" human society--if for no other reason than to
    contrast the human "ideal" expressed in the fantasy setting against that of
    the monstrous one. If one posits a magical environment, foregoes any game
    mechanical differences between how the sexes are portrayed (mostly ability
    scores) and further introduces much more extreme and harsh societies (even
    the most depraved of which are, in the final analysis, just variants of our
    own society/history) then one can similarly employ more "enlightened"
    human/elven/dwarven/halfling societies (which are, in the final analysis,
    an ideal expression of--not a portrayal of--real societies.)

    >Not only does my campaign inhabit a world in which premodern
    >constraints limit NPC women, but so does pre-modern hygiene, disease (as
    >though I have not posted enough on disease, the inadequacy of a small cadre
    >of spellcasters to heal the world, and a revision of the Heal skill to
    >eliminate automatic cures), and even social class.

    That probably wouldn`t work for me. Out of curiosity, are these NPCs just
    the background, or do you actually role-play them regularly as DM?

    >Since you have specifically complained about my BR conceptions of class
    >ideology in the
    >immediately subsequent post (4:42 pm), it certainly appears that you have a
    >problem with the very application of a pre-modern ideology in gaming no
    >matter how it manifests.

    I was looking for a clarification there, not refuting the application of
    pre-modern ideology in gaming. I confess I don`t see how either your
    definition or my response is really connected to the application of
    pre-modern ideology to gaming in the first place. You described RP in a
    way ("RP is power which creates belief, rather than belief that creates
    power") that appeared to be paraphrasing the way the published materials
    describe bloodline rather than regency. How does that definition represent
    an application of pre-modern ideology?

    As long as I`m at it, I don`t have any objection to applying pre-modern
    ideology to a game. Personally, I prefer to go with the basics; monarchy,
    the "three estates" and like that. Even those described in somewhat
    general terms. Where greater detail aids a particular session (or even
    becomes the point of a particular session) then it can be more thoroughly
    explored, but such things are secondary to play.

    >I rather prefer my NPC`s to have skin infections, GI infections, and to
    >die prematurely. And I like a Heal skill and cure spell environment that
    >can`t fix the problem for any but the lucky few, of
    >whom the PC`s are numbered.

    Hm. I`m not quite sure how to respond to that.... I mean, it`s fine. Go
    to it. Have fun, I guess. I`m sure there are plenty of other maladies we
    could suggest for your NPCs if ever run out of symptoms.

    >Finally, I am happy to hear what other people do and think about in their
    >own games. I will take my part in describing what I do and think.

    As far as I can tell that`s all we`ve been doing. Up until this point,
    that is.

    >I`m not so happy to be scolded because someone thinks my gaming priorities
    >are misplaced.

    My previous post having to do with gender equity and fantasy components was
    not directed at anyone in particular (there`ve been ample opportunities to
    quote had it been) but was part of a general commentary on the thread. If
    you felt scolded by that... well, then I don`t know what to tell you other
    than I`ll try to make it more clear in the future that I`m scolding when
    that`s my intent. Normally, in fact, I`d take this post off the list, but
    #1 and #2 there are actually relevant to the discussion, so I won`t.

    Gary

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  6. #36
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 4:29 PM

    > So, to conclude reason #1, "why insist?" Well, I don`t think anyone
    really
    > did insist, but to that extent that they did it would be because they find
    > it more fun to play that way.

    Oh, but there was insistance, including capitalization, imputed moral
    inferiority, suggestion of social malformation, and your own dismissive turn
    (no one really uses social class or disease that way, so old timey gender
    sounds more like a hang-up). These may have been at least partially
    enthusiasic rhetorical excesses, but they did refuse to admit any role for
    an alternative playing style. The implication was that its just not done in
    this enlightened age. So all I am really asking for is the sense that it is
    possible to play BR with this stuff. When I first see posts of this kind I
    suppose it could just be as subtle as someone saying "will" when they mean
    "may". As in the sentence "that will/may not be fun". So, I post something
    along the lines like, "Oh, I think its fun", and I do get replies that say,
    "I mean really, how is /that/ possible?"

    Mostly, I do just post because I think some people will find this stuff
    interesting. I`m not trying to convert people to my style of play, or
    insist that there is some deficiency in gamers who do things exactly the
    opposite of my approach. But I do have to ask why some of posts I see won`t
    even admit the possibility of fun with some of this stuff, even after I
    suggest it can be fun (not must be fun).

    Admitedly, I don`t play RPG`s for escapism, I play the for exploration.
    Like Schiller, I think entertainment should be didactic, not escapist. But
    again, that`s just me.

    > Too much realism loses the DM just as surely as too much can lose the
    players.

    Realism is a genre style (whether we`re talking about Realism or realism).
    The key to success in this area is to set up the genre, and then just avoid
    violating its rules. Otherwise its heavy handed.

    > "Why insist that NPC society cannot reflect real societies?" is what
    > forms the basic rationale for the aforementioned escapism. That is,
    > precisely because it is a fantasy setting.

    Except that until very recently, what we today call fantasy was not an
    attempt to escape real society, but to comment directly on it. Talk to
    people unfamiliar with myth about Greek mythology, and it will weird them
    out. Gods having sex with siblings, turning into animals to seduce humans.
    Ick! But the Greeks were commenting on their own existence, in a poetic
    way, perhaps, but the real society of their daily life was its subject. So,
    I have no problem with dragons, gods, and magics as a commentary on real
    societies. I am just using ancient and medieval literary tools to look at
    past societies in a way which they would probably find familiar. Rather
    than using Greek figures like Perseus or Theseus, I use the BR stock of
    places and people, and I don`t limit myself to any mythologies, literatures,
    or traditions. BR`s setting allows a smorgasbord of other forms to be
    applied.

    I had written:
    >> Not only does my campaign inhabit a world in which premodern
    >> constraints limit NPC women, but so does pre-modern hygiene, disease,
    >> and even social class.

    > That probably wouldn`t work for me. Out of curiosity, are these NPCs
    > just the background, or do you actually role-play them regularly as DM?

    Stuff like hygene, mud, or bad plumbing is generally used to establish the
    setting at the begining of a session, or during transitions to remind
    players that our world is different. Disease and social class figure
    regularly into NPC play. I don`t start characters off as rulers, though if
    a players want to rule, he can be next in line of succession. This means I
    need to remove a lot of NPC`s during the course of the game. Other NPC`s
    start the game as old and sick. King Bervining of Halskapa is described in
    tRH as having failing health. He died of pneumonia the first winter of the
    campaign. I`ve had a PC get an infection from a wound, the healer lanced
    his liver to drain yellow bile. The PC recovered nicely. An NPC once
    caught a fever and now has a rheumatism, he complains of aches before it
    rains. Eorl Njall Olivsson was badly wounded in the leg, infection set in,
    and I basically retired him for a year. When the PC`s came to Hjorvaal
    during his lengthy convalescence they found him walking with staff and
    unable to leave his compound. He`s recovered. Eorl Olfjor Ylvarrik
    recently had a heart attack while hunting, and he died. His eldest son,
    Runolf, who had grown into a rival of the PC`s is now the Eorl of Arvaald.
    Unlike old Olfjor, Runolf has grown into the campaign as a peer of the PC`s.
    He approximates their level, his encounters with them, both friendly and
    adversarial, fill the history of the campaign. Olfjor was a political
    rival, Runolf is also a personal one. I`ve had NPC`s cough up blood on
    several occasions to suggest vice or corruption. The players have shown no
    interest in going to Thaele, so Eorl Andros Drakkenvir will probabaly die
    soon of illness, and then the fate of the Tjarvaald colony will become
    precarious, and it may ultimatly fail.

    > You described RP in a way ("RP is power which creates belief, rather
    > than belief that creates power") that appeared to be paraphrasing the
    > way the published materials describe bloodline rather than regency.
    > How does that definition represent an application of pre-modern ideology?

    RP is just a metric for the way bloodline authorizes rulership. Bloodlines
    are what makes BR what it is. Counting up points of power could be done in
    any game. As a result of the American and French revolutions power is now
    assumed to rest with the people, and governments are regarded as
    illegitimate who hold power against the will of the people. Prior to this
    the governance and social order were seen as a manifestation of the natural
    order, and hence the divine order, from anthing from a remote watchmaker god
    to the king being a semi-divine direct representative of heaven on earth.
    In a premodern conception, the people are more thoroughly subject to their
    leaders, as can be seen by the changing meaning of the word "liberty".

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #37
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kgauck

    [...] Whereboth social perceptions and metaphysical reality reflect a top down world in which the will of heaven is expressed in earth by an elite, be they priests, kings, or homever. I don`t create such a world because I like it better than the one I inhabit, I create it because its different. The same could be said for gaming in a post-apocalyptic world, a Cthulhu setting, Ravenloft, or a any number of other settings which are less than suitable for family living.[...]
    If you mean equal rights for woman, in reality there are enough countries, where they aren't so different from your gaming. So may be some peoples like Birthright, BECAUSE IT MIGHT BE BETTER THAN THE REAL WORLD, not different.

    Finally, I am happy to hear what other people do and think about in their own games. I will take my part in describing what I do and think. I`m not so happy to be scolded because someone thinks my gaming priorities are misplaced.
    As Gary said already, I speak about my own game and that was NO insult to you personally. If you like your style, keep it, nobody stops you...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

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