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Thread: Leadership Feat
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12-03-2002, 08:11 PM #1
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Do you require the leadership feat for regents to have lieutenants?
The feat/cohort system replaces the old henchman system from 2e.
Lieutenants were henchman with benefits for regents. But Leadership isn`t
available until 6th level, and it looks like it only allows one cohort.
I`m thinking just use the character`s charisma modifier as the number of
lieutenants he can have, and bypass the leadership system entirely.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
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12-03-2002, 09:11 PM #2
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On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
> On Tue, 2002-12-03 at 10:23, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > AFAIC, cohorts serve the person, lieutenants serve the realm.
>
> A pleasant distinction. I like the definition.
As do I.
> The situation is generally more complex however. Loyalty to the realm
> does translate to loyalty to the regent of the realm in many case -
> especially when the mechanics of the game dictate a lieutenants
> actions are determined by the regent.
Ideally, yes, because it would be best if the interests of the realm and
the interests of the regent coincided perfectly. However, even in
historical monarchies and modern dictatorships there is a distinction
drawn between what is best for the ruler and what is best for the
country. This is not to say that cohorts are the people who choose leader
over country and lieutenants are the people who choose the reverse -- for
cohorts may well switch sides to save themselves if they see the leader is
doomed, and lieutenants may well be personal cronies whose only chance to
keep their jobs and privileged lifestyles is to ensure the ruler keeps his
job -- but rather to say that the general complexity we both recognize is
more easily modeled by keeping the two job descriptions separate.
In some ways they are similar, and in others they are different; I think
the differences are important enough not to combine the two groups. One
major difference in game mechanical terms is what determines the suggested
limits on the power of the two kinds of followers: for example, a famous
adventurer who retires to rule a tiny realm will have much less trouble
attracting other very high-level adventurers to go dragon-hunting with
than finding a good general to command his 50-man "army" while he is off
adventuring. The opposite is easier to arrange (the brand-new 1st-level
ruler of Avanil hires a powerful adventuring party to ensure he survives
running through "The Keep on the Borderlands"), but these people are more
properly considered hirelings than henchmen -- they serve for the money,
not personal comradeship.
> Are then all lieutenants not cohorts by default? (although the person
> to whom they are a cohort changes with changes in domain regent)
No, because they are willing to follow a weak person who has a powerful
job, and because some of them are likely to quit if ordered to follow the
regent into a dungeon crawl.
> Are cohorts of a regent lieutenants by default? (i.e. they lose
> lieutenant status if the person the serve loses their domain or dies)
This is easier to arrange, in that appointing someone a lieutenant is a
free action, so you can have as many as you want. However, the regent may
not want his adventuring bodyguard to go off and perform actions without him.
> (i) Assuming that a character is limited in the number of cohorts
> (ii) A domain should also be limited in the number of lieutenants that
> are attached independently of the regent
I agree with both of these ideas, even though I think lieutenants are not
the same thing as cohorts. For (i), I have no trouble applying the DMG
rule as printed. For (ii), I would support this change from the BR
rulebook because even though any tiny realm can create as many grandiose
titles as it wants, it may have difficulty filling them with people of
enough ability to be useful -- or even with enough different people, as in
"The Mikado" where the same minor noble in a tiny village is "First Lord
of the Treasury, Lord Chief Justice, Commander-in-Chief, Lord High
Admiral, Master of the Buckhounds, Groom of the Back Stairs, Archbishop of
Titipu, and Lord Mayor, both acting and elect, all rolled into one," in
order to draw as many government salaries as possible without actually
having to do much of anything. Or at least, even if the number of
available officials is not to be regulated, then the competence of the
countless hordes ought to be related to the prestige of the realm.
I would make a composite number (for limiting either or both of lieutenant
quantity and quality) from combining your domain point number with the
standard ideas of charisma bonus and bloodline bonus. A nobody ruler of a
nothing realm who desperately wanted one really good lieutenant I would
probably allow to get one, at the price of giving up any claim to another
lieutenant of any ability at all, and a significant threat of being
deposed in a Great Captain event.
Ryan Caveney
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12-03-2002, 11:27 PM #3
Power acts like a gravity well on the ambitious. Little nothing regents of
noting realms should have just as many lieutenants as they want, but they`ll
tend to be the most prominant local figures whoever that may be. Imagine
having members of the Commoner class as your lieutenants. Yeah, my new new
Admiral Gwain can fish pretty well, he handles a three main sailing vessel
with skill. He can navigate well enough in very familiar waters, and he`s
knowledgable in all the fisherman`s lore of the cove. Gwain is qualified to
keep me abrest of the rumors running through the fishing community. Perhaps
monitor the fishermen so that I get my twelfth share. And maybe he can even
organize them to help me move a lot of soldiers across the cove under cover
of night. He`s clearly not an administrator, diplomat, or in most respects
is he a traditional lieuteant.
If I were DM`ing a campaign centered around a single lord who was the vassal
of the Count of Shadowgreen, these are about the lieutenants he would be
attracting. Some of the fun happenings would include actual PC class
lieutenants being recruited away by friends and allies of greater power.
Ranger and woodsman Pelien, who was once my lieutenant is now a functionary
in the organization of the High Mage Aelies. Pelien is now in effect the
lieutenant to a lieutenant of Aelies, and his job is now to look after
source manifestations in Shadowgreen. When he worked for me he mostly keep
an eye on the fishermen`s occassional need for lumber in the forest. Now he
watches out for agents of Rogr Aglondier and occasionally assists his boss
in carrying out actions delegated by the High Mage.
When you`re the Queen of Aerenwe you get the Alwier twins as lieutenants.
When you`re a vassal of the Count of Shadowgreen you get a 1st level ranger
and a 3rd level commoner as lieutenants.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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12-03-2002, 11:56 PM #4
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On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> When you`re the Queen of Aerenwe you get the Alwier twins as
> lieutenants. When you`re a vassal of the Count of Shadowgreen you get
> a 1st level ranger and a 3rd level commoner as lieutenants.
Agreed. My support for a cap to the number of lieutenants is wishy-washy
at best, but my support for a cap to the quality of lieutenants is strong.
I would add personal qualities of the regent to this as well -- if you are
a brand-new vassal of the Count of Shadowgreen, but only 30 years old and
just retired from an adventuring career as a 12th-level ranger/rogue, you
are likely to be seen as someone with great potential for power growth;
this is the sort of situation for which a cohort makes a particularly good
starting lieutenant.
The best reason I could see to cap numbers is DM sanity when trying to
keep tabs on a large number of player realms, but I have no real objection
to having hordes of hangers-on so long as the power they represent is well
balanced to the power of the domain they serve.
Ryan Caveney
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12-04-2002, 01:41 AM #5
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On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 07:51, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2002-12-03 at 10:23, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> > Are then all lieutenants not cohorts by default? (although the person
> > to whom they are a cohort changes with changes in domain regent)
>
> No, because they are willing to follow a weak person who has a powerful
> job, and because some of them are likely to quit if ordered to follow the
> regent into a dungeon crawl.
Good point. But can`t cohorts quit too if not treated right? This does
lead to the point of some lieutenants being relatively independent of
the domain ruler, and some being controlled by the domain ruler.
From a design point of view, I`d create an abstract base class called
Henchman, of which Cohort and Lieutenant are concrete class instances.
(over-use of the word class, out of context in D&D) i.e. I`d create a
limit on the number of Henchmen, but not define what a Henchman could or
could not do. Then introduce the derived classes of Cohort and
Lieutenant (who are all `Henchmen` and subject to the limit but no other
condition).
>
> > Are cohorts of a regent lieutenants by default? (i.e. they lose
> > lieutenant status if the person the serve loses their domain or dies)
>
> This is easier to arrange, in that appointing someone a lieutenant is a
> free action, so you can have as many as you want. However, the regent may
> not want his adventuring bodyguard to go off and perform actions without him.
But is this likely? (I mean aren`t they under the control of the regent)
I just thought of a possibility. While I`m not trying to be
obstructionist, what if: a character was lieutenant to a realm, and a
cohort to a character other than the regent of the realm? - given that
the character is an NPC, and that both the regent of the realm and the
other character are both PCs - what`s the control situation?
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12-04-2002, 01:41 AM #6
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On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 10:36, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> > When you`re the Queen of Aerenwe you get the Alwier twins as
> > lieutenants. When you`re a vassal of the Count of Shadowgreen you get
> > a 1st level ranger and a 3rd level commoner as lieutenants.
>
> Agreed. My support for a cap to the number of lieutenants is wishy-washy
> at best,
Mine too. Quality/Schmality -- as far as administration of a realm goes,
the level of a lieutenant`s character class(es) should be pretty much
irrelevant.
What of a regents need/desire for lieutenants as a matter of ruling
`style` or because of a lack of experience?
What of a realm`s potential to supply and support able administrators
and diplomats? (including their staff)
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12-04-2002, 02:46 AM #7
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On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
> Good point. But can`t cohorts quit too if not treated right?
Indeed they can. What I meant is that the two kinds of follower sign up
for different sorts of duties, and thus have different notions of what
constitutes being treated "right".
> This does lead to the point of some lieutenants being relatively
> independent of the domain ruler, and some being controlled by the
> domain ruler.
Well, ideally they`d all have individual personalities and the DM would
use those features as the sources for court intrigue plots, but yes in
practice an LT does whatever the regent says unless the DM says otherwise.
> From a design point of view, I`d create an abstract base class called
> Henchman, of which Cohort and Lieutenant are concrete class instances.
And here I am, just having stopped using C++ to go back to Fortran four
months ago. =) But to use object-oriented terminology, I would consider
Lieutenants as derived from the Holding base class, though multiple
inheritance from some sort of generic Person might link them to Henchmen.
> > However, the regent may not want his adventuring bodyguard to go
> > off and perform actions without him.
>
> But is this likely? (I mean aren`t they under the control of the regent)
Yes, they are under control, but they get different kinds of orders.
What I meant is that lieutenants are people you send away to do a job
in your stead, but cohorts are people you bring with you to help you do
the job yourself.
> I just thought of a possibility. While I`m not trying to be
> obstructionist, what if: a character was lieutenant to a realm, and a
> cohort to a character other than the regent of the realm? - given that
> the character is an NPC, and that both the regent of the realm and the
> other character are both PCs - what`s the control situation?
That`s rather like being the vassal of two different liege lords, which
was not all that rare historically (and indeed sometimes the case for all
vassals if you consider conflicts between, say, your Count and the King).
It`s uncomfortable. Mostly you just hope they never ask for conflicting
things. If it did come to an irreconcilable conflict, the one in the
middle would have to make a choice, and basically quit (at least
temporarily) his job as follower of one of them. Who wins? DM fiat is
all I can see to resolve it.
Ryan Caveney
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12-04-2002, 05:25 AM #8
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On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 12:29, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
>
> > Good point. But can`t cohorts quit too if not treated right?
>
> Indeed they can. What I meant is that the two kinds of follower sign up
> for different sorts of duties, and thus have different notions of what
> constitutes being treated "right".
I`m not sure that it makes any difference. After all, it`s possible
(probable even) that not all cohorts sign on for the same reasons
either. These have to be taken into account as part of the normal scheme
of things.
>
> > This does lead to the point of some lieutenants being relatively
> > independent of the domain ruler, and some being controlled by the
> > domain ruler.
>
> Well, ideally they`d all have individual personalities and the DM would
> use those features as the sources for court intrigue plots, but yes in
> practice an LT does whatever the regent says unless the DM says otherwise.
Obviously the same holds true for cohorts as well.
Kenneth`s distinction is all well and good, but it reflects the
recruitment and attachment aspects of the situation rather than the
behavior of the characters.
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12-04-2002, 06:17 AM #9
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:34 PM
> Obviously the same holds true for cohorts as well.
> Kenneth`s distinction is all well and good, but it reflects the
> recruitment and attachment aspects of the situation rather than the
> behavior of the characters.
PC`s are rarely looking for the same kind of chartacter for these two roles
as well. Lieutenants are often something along the lines of being a 6th
level aristocrat, or a 2nd level priest/4th level expert, both of which have
skills that support domain maintenance (Diplomacy, Administration, Knowledge
(Law). Cohorts, having a motivation to join a PC for different reasons,
wants to follow the PC to take part in his adventures, and so is more often
a more action-oriented class and isn`t so well prepared to stand in to
administer a rule action or supervise construction.
The fact that there can be a huge overlap between motivations, character
concept and design, as well as actual duties being performed doesn`t force
us to abandon the distinction. Cohorts, being attracted to the PC, are
governed by the Leadership Feat. Powerful PC`s with the proper bonuses for
the feat get more and better cohorts. Lieutenants, being attracted to the
realm, are governed by a 3e version of the lieutenant rules. Powerful
realms attract better lieutenants.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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12-04-2002, 06:17 AM #10
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:36 PM
> The best reason I could see to cap numbers is DM sanity when trying to
> keep tabs on a large number of player realms, but I have no real objection
> to having hordes of hangers-on so long as the power they represent is well
> balanced to the power of the domain they serve.
Very true. Once we get down to the point of having a man-off-the-street
type of NPC as a lieutenant, you don`t really need to keep track of them
unless the PC wants to role play interactions with his Dogberry.
Dogberry is the character played by Micheal Keaton in Branagh`s "Much Ado
About Nothing". This lieutenant of the old Leonato is probabaly a 2nd level
commoner. Comic presentation not withstanding.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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