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Thread: Leadership Feat

  1. #1
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    Do you require the leadership feat for regents to have lieutenants?

    The feat/cohort system replaces the old henchman system from 2e.
    Lieutenants were henchman with benefits for regents. But Leadership isn`t
    available until 6th level, and it looks like it only allows one cohort.

    I`m thinking just use the character`s charisma modifier as the number of
    lieutenants he can have, and bypass the leadership system entirely.
    --
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    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  2. #2
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

    > On Tue, 2002-12-03 at 10:23, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    > > AFAIC, cohorts serve the person, lieutenants serve the realm.
    >
    > A pleasant distinction. I like the definition.

    As do I.

    > The situation is generally more complex however. Loyalty to the realm
    > does translate to loyalty to the regent of the realm in many case -
    > especially when the mechanics of the game dictate a lieutenants
    > actions are determined by the regent.

    Ideally, yes, because it would be best if the interests of the realm and
    the interests of the regent coincided perfectly. However, even in
    historical monarchies and modern dictatorships there is a distinction
    drawn between what is best for the ruler and what is best for the
    country. This is not to say that cohorts are the people who choose leader
    over country and lieutenants are the people who choose the reverse -- for
    cohorts may well switch sides to save themselves if they see the leader is
    doomed, and lieutenants may well be personal cronies whose only chance to
    keep their jobs and privileged lifestyles is to ensure the ruler keeps his
    job -- but rather to say that the general complexity we both recognize is
    more easily modeled by keeping the two job descriptions separate.

    In some ways they are similar, and in others they are different; I think
    the differences are important enough not to combine the two groups. One
    major difference in game mechanical terms is what determines the suggested
    limits on the power of the two kinds of followers: for example, a famous
    adventurer who retires to rule a tiny realm will have much less trouble
    attracting other very high-level adventurers to go dragon-hunting with
    than finding a good general to command his 50-man "army" while he is off
    adventuring. The opposite is easier to arrange (the brand-new 1st-level
    ruler of Avanil hires a powerful adventuring party to ensure he survives
    running through "The Keep on the Borderlands"), but these people are more
    properly considered hirelings than henchmen -- they serve for the money,
    not personal comradeship.

    > Are then all lieutenants not cohorts by default? (although the person
    > to whom they are a cohort changes with changes in domain regent)

    No, because they are willing to follow a weak person who has a powerful
    job, and because some of them are likely to quit if ordered to follow the
    regent into a dungeon crawl.

    > Are cohorts of a regent lieutenants by default? (i.e. they lose
    > lieutenant status if the person the serve loses their domain or dies)

    This is easier to arrange, in that appointing someone a lieutenant is a
    free action, so you can have as many as you want. However, the regent may
    not want his adventuring bodyguard to go off and perform actions without him.

    > (i) Assuming that a character is limited in the number of cohorts
    > (ii) A domain should also be limited in the number of lieutenants that
    > are attached independently of the regent

    I agree with both of these ideas, even though I think lieutenants are not
    the same thing as cohorts. For (i), I have no trouble applying the DMG
    rule as printed. For (ii), I would support this change from the BR
    rulebook because even though any tiny realm can create as many grandiose
    titles as it wants, it may have difficulty filling them with people of
    enough ability to be useful -- or even with enough different people, as in
    "The Mikado" where the same minor noble in a tiny village is "First Lord
    of the Treasury, Lord Chief Justice, Commander-in-Chief, Lord High
    Admiral, Master of the Buckhounds, Groom of the Back Stairs, Archbishop of
    Titipu, and Lord Mayor, both acting and elect, all rolled into one," in
    order to draw as many government salaries as possible without actually
    having to do much of anything. Or at least, even if the number of
    available officials is not to be regulated, then the competence of the
    countless hordes ought to be related to the prestige of the realm.

    I would make a composite number (for limiting either or both of lieutenant
    quantity and quality) from combining your domain point number with the
    standard ideas of charisma bonus and bloodline bonus. A nobody ruler of a
    nothing realm who desperately wanted one really good lieutenant I would
    probably allow to get one, at the price of giving up any claim to another
    lieutenant of any ability at all, and a significant threat of being
    deposed in a Great Captain event.


    Ryan Caveney

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  3. #3
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Power acts like a gravity well on the ambitious. Little nothing regents of
    noting realms should have just as many lieutenants as they want, but they`ll
    tend to be the most prominant local figures whoever that may be. Imagine
    having members of the Commoner class as your lieutenants. Yeah, my new new
    Admiral Gwain can fish pretty well, he handles a three main sailing vessel
    with skill. He can navigate well enough in very familiar waters, and he`s
    knowledgable in all the fisherman`s lore of the cove. Gwain is qualified to
    keep me abrest of the rumors running through the fishing community. Perhaps
    monitor the fishermen so that I get my twelfth share. And maybe he can even
    organize them to help me move a lot of soldiers across the cove under cover
    of night. He`s clearly not an administrator, diplomat, or in most respects
    is he a traditional lieuteant.

    If I were DM`ing a campaign centered around a single lord who was the vassal
    of the Count of Shadowgreen, these are about the lieutenants he would be
    attracting. Some of the fun happenings would include actual PC class
    lieutenants being recruited away by friends and allies of greater power.
    Ranger and woodsman Pelien, who was once my lieutenant is now a functionary
    in the organization of the High Mage Aelies. Pelien is now in effect the
    lieutenant to a lieutenant of Aelies, and his job is now to look after
    source manifestations in Shadowgreen. When he worked for me he mostly keep
    an eye on the fishermen`s occassional need for lumber in the forest. Now he
    watches out for agents of Rogr Aglondier and occasionally assists his boss
    in carrying out actions delegated by the High Mage.

    When you`re the Queen of Aerenwe you get the Alwier twins as lieutenants.
    When you`re a vassal of the Count of Shadowgreen you get a 1st level ranger
    and a 3rd level commoner as lieutenants.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  4. #4
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > When you`re the Queen of Aerenwe you get the Alwier twins as
    > lieutenants. When you`re a vassal of the Count of Shadowgreen you get
    > a 1st level ranger and a 3rd level commoner as lieutenants.

    Agreed. My support for a cap to the number of lieutenants is wishy-washy
    at best, but my support for a cap to the quality of lieutenants is strong.
    I would add personal qualities of the regent to this as well -- if you are
    a brand-new vassal of the Count of Shadowgreen, but only 30 years old and
    just retired from an adventuring career as a 12th-level ranger/rogue, you
    are likely to be seen as someone with great potential for power growth;
    this is the sort of situation for which a cohort makes a particularly good
    starting lieutenant.

    The best reason I could see to cap numbers is DM sanity when trying to
    keep tabs on a large number of player realms, but I have no real objection
    to having hordes of hangers-on so long as the power they represent is well
    balanced to the power of the domain they serve.


    Ryan Caveney

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  5. #5
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    On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 07:51, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
    > On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
    >
    > > On Tue, 2002-12-03 at 10:23, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    >
    > > Are then all lieutenants not cohorts by default? (although the person
    > > to whom they are a cohort changes with changes in domain regent)
    >
    > No, because they are willing to follow a weak person who has a powerful
    > job, and because some of them are likely to quit if ordered to follow the
    > regent into a dungeon crawl.
    Good point. But can`t cohorts quit too if not treated right? This does
    lead to the point of some lieutenants being relatively independent of
    the domain ruler, and some being controlled by the domain ruler.

    From a design point of view, I`d create an abstract base class called
    Henchman, of which Cohort and Lieutenant are concrete class instances.
    (over-use of the word class, out of context in D&D) i.e. I`d create a
    limit on the number of Henchmen, but not define what a Henchman could or
    could not do. Then introduce the derived classes of Cohort and
    Lieutenant (who are all `Henchmen` and subject to the limit but no other
    condition).

    >
    > > Are cohorts of a regent lieutenants by default? (i.e. they lose
    > > lieutenant status if the person the serve loses their domain or dies)
    >
    > This is easier to arrange, in that appointing someone a lieutenant is a
    > free action, so you can have as many as you want. However, the regent may
    > not want his adventuring bodyguard to go off and perform actions without him.
    But is this likely? (I mean aren`t they under the control of the regent)

    I just thought of a possibility. While I`m not trying to be
    obstructionist, what if: a character was lieutenant to a realm, and a
    cohort to a character other than the regent of the realm? - given that
    the character is an NPC, and that both the regent of the realm and the
    other character are both PCs - what`s the control situation?

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    On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 10:36, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
    > On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    >
    > > When you`re the Queen of Aerenwe you get the Alwier twins as
    > > lieutenants. When you`re a vassal of the Count of Shadowgreen you get
    > > a 1st level ranger and a 3rd level commoner as lieutenants.
    >
    > Agreed. My support for a cap to the number of lieutenants is wishy-washy
    > at best,
    Mine too. Quality/Schmality -- as far as administration of a realm goes,
    the level of a lieutenant`s character class(es) should be pretty much
    irrelevant.

    What of a regents need/desire for lieutenants as a matter of ruling
    `style` or because of a lack of experience?

    What of a realm`s potential to supply and support able administrators
    and diplomats? (including their staff)

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  7. #7
    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

    > Good point. But can`t cohorts quit too if not treated right?

    Indeed they can. What I meant is that the two kinds of follower sign up
    for different sorts of duties, and thus have different notions of what
    constitutes being treated "right".

    > This does lead to the point of some lieutenants being relatively
    > independent of the domain ruler, and some being controlled by the
    > domain ruler.

    Well, ideally they`d all have individual personalities and the DM would
    use those features as the sources for court intrigue plots, but yes in
    practice an LT does whatever the regent says unless the DM says otherwise.

    > From a design point of view, I`d create an abstract base class called
    > Henchman, of which Cohort and Lieutenant are concrete class instances.

    And here I am, just having stopped using C++ to go back to Fortran four
    months ago. =) But to use object-oriented terminology, I would consider
    Lieutenants as derived from the Holding base class, though multiple
    inheritance from some sort of generic Person might link them to Henchmen.

    > > However, the regent may not want his adventuring bodyguard to go
    > > off and perform actions without him.
    >
    > But is this likely? (I mean aren`t they under the control of the regent)

    Yes, they are under control, but they get different kinds of orders.
    What I meant is that lieutenants are people you send away to do a job
    in your stead, but cohorts are people you bring with you to help you do
    the job yourself.

    > I just thought of a possibility. While I`m not trying to be
    > obstructionist, what if: a character was lieutenant to a realm, and a
    > cohort to a character other than the regent of the realm? - given that
    > the character is an NPC, and that both the regent of the realm and the
    > other character are both PCs - what`s the control situation?

    That`s rather like being the vassal of two different liege lords, which
    was not all that rare historically (and indeed sometimes the case for all
    vassals if you consider conflicts between, say, your Count and the King).
    It`s uncomfortable. Mostly you just hope they never ask for conflicting
    things. If it did come to an irreconcilable conflict, the one in the
    middle would have to make a choice, and basically quit (at least
    temporarily) his job as follower of one of them. Who wins? DM fiat is
    all I can see to resolve it.


    Ryan Caveney

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    On Wed, 2002-12-04 at 12:29, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

    > On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
    >
    > > Good point. But can`t cohorts quit too if not treated right?
    >
    > Indeed they can. What I meant is that the two kinds of follower sign up
    > for different sorts of duties, and thus have different notions of what
    > constitutes being treated "right".

    I`m not sure that it makes any difference. After all, it`s possible
    (probable even) that not all cohorts sign on for the same reasons
    either. These have to be taken into account as part of the normal scheme
    of things.

    >
    > > This does lead to the point of some lieutenants being relatively
    > > independent of the domain ruler, and some being controlled by the
    > > domain ruler.
    >
    > Well, ideally they`d all have individual personalities and the DM would
    > use those features as the sources for court intrigue plots, but yes in
    > practice an LT does whatever the regent says unless the DM says otherwise.

    Obviously the same holds true for cohorts as well.
    Kenneth`s distinction is all well and good, but it reflects the
    recruitment and attachment aspects of the situation rather than the
    behavior of the characters.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
    Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:34 PM

    > Obviously the same holds true for cohorts as well.
    > Kenneth`s distinction is all well and good, but it reflects the
    > recruitment and attachment aspects of the situation rather than the
    > behavior of the characters.

    PC`s are rarely looking for the same kind of chartacter for these two roles
    as well. Lieutenants are often something along the lines of being a 6th
    level aristocrat, or a 2nd level priest/4th level expert, both of which have
    skills that support domain maintenance (Diplomacy, Administration, Knowledge
    (Law). Cohorts, having a motivation to join a PC for different reasons,
    wants to follow the PC to take part in his adventures, and so is more often
    a more action-oriented class and isn`t so well prepared to stand in to
    administer a rule action or supervise construction.

    The fact that there can be a huge overlap between motivations, character
    concept and design, as well as actual duties being performed doesn`t force
    us to abandon the distinction. Cohorts, being attracted to the PC, are
    governed by the Leadership Feat. Powerful PC`s with the proper bonuses for
    the feat get more and better cohorts. Lieutenants, being attracted to the
    realm, are governed by a 3e version of the lieutenant rules. Powerful
    realms attract better lieutenants.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
    Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:36 PM

    > The best reason I could see to cap numbers is DM sanity when trying to
    > keep tabs on a large number of player realms, but I have no real objection
    > to having hordes of hangers-on so long as the power they represent is well
    > balanced to the power of the domain they serve.

    Very true. Once we get down to the point of having a man-off-the-street
    type of NPC as a lieutenant, you don`t really need to keep track of them
    unless the PC wants to role play interactions with his Dogberry.

    Dogberry is the character played by Micheal Keaton in Branagh`s "Much Ado
    About Nothing". This lieutenant of the old Leonato is probabaly a 2nd level
    commoner. Comic presentation not withstanding.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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