Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Germany near Frankfurt
    Posts
    295
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Hi there,

    in the last day's it was obvious that not all people in the forum where "satisfied" with the work done by the "D20-Team". The main reason for this seems to be that many people here in the forum, which do not belong to the official D20-team made additional rules and spent a lot of work to extend "our" game.

    The D20-Team seems to ignore all these rules, threats and discussions (correct me if I'am wrong).

    I would like to have more discussions and overviews of the new rules the team makes.

    Since the team members are not more professional game designers than the rest of the forum-community.

    Please let us "fans" to make the best out of the new Birthright Edition, which satisfies a broad spectrum of people, not only the little staff of self-called-team-leaders. Please note that this statement here is not meant as an offence, only as a proposal of improvement.

    Further this is an international forum with members all around the world, like Brazil, Portugal, Australia and Germany. In my opinion also this countries should be taken into account. there are a lot of game designers (which are also active in this forum) who have developed special rules for the game. The German Birthright Project for example developed the prestige classes for priests (the lady who designed them is also around in this forum, greetings Ariadne).

    After all the 3.Edition is not a commercial product, only a fan-project. I see no reason why to deny the interests and ideas of some fans....
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    BR mailing list
    Posts
    1,562
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    I think we are beeing over-sensitive here. A project like this needs time
    and space to work in, and having to constatly report your progress can be a
    hindrance.

    What you in the project could do if you REALLY want to WORK to keep open to
    the fans is appoint one (new?) member of the project whose only duty is to
    bounce ideas of the community. Such a person would have access to the
    work-in-progress and your internal mailing list, and would take questions
    and issues from these fora and air them here. He would also filter any ideas
    that surface back into the project group, thus keeping the other project
    members free to concentrate on their own work.

    Just an idea, but it would probably save you a lot of fames.

    /Carl


    __________________________________________________ ___
    Gratis e-mail resten av livet på www.yahoo.se/mail
    Busenkelt!

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    NOTE: Messages posted by Birthright-L are automatically inserted posts originating from the mailing list linked to the forum.

  3. #3
    Senior Member blitzmacher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    el paso
    Posts
    250
    Downloads
    24
    Uploads
    0
    I say just lay off of those who are working on this project, they are spending their freetime to do this. I applaud the members of the D20 team, I think it is a good decision to keep the members of the team at a minimum number, two heads are better then one, but twenty of them can be a real headache. My only hope is that after each chapter is finished, that the team will let us have a look at it so the BR community can give its view on the chapters before the final drafting. It may take a little longer but the community by and large would be a little happier about the final results, if at least they had a say before it was finished.
    Cattle die and kinsmen die,
    thyself too soon must die,
    but one thing never, I ween, will die, --
    fair fame of one who has earned.
    HAVAMAL

  4. #4
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Stephen Starfox"
    Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 5:38 PM


    > What you in the project could do if you REALLY want to WORK
    > to keep open to the fans is appoint one (new?) member of the project
    > whose only duty is tobounce ideas of the community.

    I have been following this thread, and was also moving toward this kind of
    idea. The specific model I was considering was parliamentary. In large
    deliberative bodies, small committees work to produce drafts which would be
    impossible in the open body. But the ideas don`t become formal they are
    accepted by the whole assembly. Sometimes ideas are sent back to committee.

    Such as person would need some parliamentary experience in managing the flow
    of information back and forth between the committee and the whole assembly.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  5. #5
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,178
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    7
    I do have one question about the whole conversion project. Is it "the D20
    Team" or "the 3e Team"? I know that might sound like a bit of a semantic
    nonesuch question, but there have been more than a few posts from people on
    "the [adjective] Team" that would indicate that some favor making a
    conversion that is as in-line with the core 3e materials as possible and a
    few that seem to favor a more independant, D20 approach. What`s the
    thinking on this?

    I don`t really need previews or updates personally (though I sympathize with
    those in the BR community who do--if for no other reason than because they
    have been stonewalled) but I am curious about the basic approach being
    employed. Which is it?

    Gary

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    626
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 01:12:47PM -0700, Gary Foss wrote:
    > I do have one question about the whole conversion project. Is it "the D20
    > Team" or "the 3e Team"? I know that might sound like a bit of a semantic
    > nonesuch question, but there have been more than a few posts from people on
    > "the [adjective] Team" that would indicate that some favor making a
    > conversion that is as in-line with the core 3e materials as possible and a
    > few that seem to favor a more independant, D20 approach. What`s the
    > thinking on this?
    >
    > I don`t really need previews or updates personally (though I sympathize with
    > those in the BR community who do--if for no other reason than because they
    > have been stonewalled) but I am curious about the basic approach being
    > employed. Which is it?

    The driving goal in the inital draft has been to make the project as in-line
    with core 3e materials as possible. I think that the FRCS is an excellent
    "model".

    - Doom

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Germany near Frankfurt
    Posts
    295
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Could the D20 Team please make some statement to my claims?
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    474
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    On Fri, 2002-12-06 at 05:47, Azrai wrote:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1115
    >
    > Azrai wrote:
    > Could the D20 Team please make some statement to my claims?

    Give it up.

    Paladins of Nesirie must be female. Witches of Kriesha too.

    For equality men should have the right to bear children. Of course
    without a womb it`s a right that they`ll find hard to execute. So every
    second woman should have hers surgically removed and implanted into a
    donor male.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  9. #9
    Birthright Developer
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    626
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 07:47:02PM +0100, Azrai wrote:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1115
    >
    > Azrai wrote:
    > Could the D20 Team please make some statement to my claims?

    !!!!! WARNING --- LONG AND POTENTIALLY BORING !!!!!

    If you aren`t interested in the bashing of d20 team volunteer threads
    you can safely skip reading this message.

    - Doom


    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Azrai" sez:
    > In the last day`s it was obvious that not all people in the forum
    > where "satisfied" with the work done by the "D20-Team". The main
    > reason for this seems to be that many people here in the forum, which
    > do not belong to the official D20-team made additional rules and spent
    > a lot of work to extend "our" game.
    >
    > The D20-Team seems to ignore all these rules, threats and discussions
    > (correct me if I`am wrong).

    I do believe that correction is in order. All of the team members are
    members of the birthright.net community, and most are on the listserv.
    We participate to the same extent as most members in those
    topics/discussions that pique our interest.

    Of course, there are dozens of valid approaches towards any given
    problem, and in many cases the "better" suggestions are quite
    complicated. Thus, there must be decisions made. Given that there are
    hundreds of such decisions that must be made, we feel that the most
    effective mechanism for creating the best d20 birthright.net rulebook
    possible is to have a much smaller group (the d20 team) make those
    calls, and then present the result to the community for discussion. In
    this way, the topics that _aren`t_ handled well will receive serious
    discussion by the group as a whole, and the topics that _are_ handled
    well can be hand-waved. If you feel differently, I would gladly
    applaud an attempt to lead a large scale team immediately. This is
    the best plan in our opinions.

    > I would like to have more discussions and overviews of the new rules
    > the team makes.
    > Since the team members are not more professional game designers than
    > the rest of the forum-community.

    We definately welcome your input and look forward to seeing it.
    The intent is to have all interested fans participate in a focused
    discussion after the first draft is complete. I expect and hope that
    there will be many errors caught, new suggestions incorporated, and
    revisions made. Only after the consensus of the fans are satisfied
    that the rules are as "good as well all can make them" will the draft
    become "birthright.net sanctioned". That is all that the "official"
    really means. We _plan_ and hope that this will become official, but
    it may not. Realistically, there is no guarantee that we, as a group,
    can even come to a consensus; but I`d like to think so.

    None of the team members are more "professional game designers" than
    the rest of the forum; nor do they claim to be. However, they were
    chosen because of the quality of the work that they had released to the
    public forum in a complete and pseudo-professional form. In
    other-words, we did invite people that did not take (or have) the time
    to put them together into an archival format for the community at
    large. Its an arbitrary standard, but its the best one that we had.

    It should also be noted that this was applied on the basis of
    availability of the archival material. If someone had a relatively
    complete conversion manual on their personal web page and I happened to
    miss the post that announced it, then the error is mine for not
    inviting them. The decision wasn`t even based on quality (since the
    metric varies). Some of the rules that some of the team propose are
    _totally_ inappropriate for my style of play; but these disagreements
    hopefully lead to a stronger product.

    > Please let us "fans" to make the best out of the new Birthright
    > Edition, which satisfies a broad spectrum of people, not only the
    > little staff of self-called-team-leaders. Please note that this
    > statement here is not meant as an offense, only as a proposal of
    > improvement.

    Ah! Here-in lies the rub. It _is_ us "fans" who are making the first
    draft. E-mails were sent out. Invitations were made: some accepted,
    some rejected. There is no "old boys network" at work, people on the
    team (to a great extent) didn`t know each other any more than any other
    members of the list; all that they had in common was displayed
    effort/interest/skill. More importantly it will be _all_ interested fans
    who will be involved in the revision/play-testing of the draft. I hope
    that _everybody_ contributes. The problem is that (IMO) the first draft
    needs to be done by a small group in order to facilitate timely
    completion. The group at large is way too big to make headway without
    focus.

    > Further this is an international forum with members all around the
    > world, like Brazil, Portugal, Australia and Germany. In my opinion also
    > this countries should be taken into account.

    While that was not an active goal in putting together the team, the
    team of course reflects the birthright.net community. I don`t know (or
    care) where everyone is located; good ideas are good ideas. I do know
    that we have several Americans, a couple of Europeans, and at least one
    person from the "down-under". The editing is done using standard
    American-usage English, as per Birthright and 3e products in general.

    > After all the 3.Edition is not a commercial product, only a
    > fan-project. I see no reason why to deny the interests and ideas of
    > some fans....

    It is inherently impossible for the team to deny anyone`s interests.
    If someone else was to put together a better rulebook and get
    birthright.net to sanction it then _that_ would be the "official"
    rulebook. We certainly _must_ deny most ideas from final inclusion in
    the rulebook that we release; many ideas conflict. Between those two
    extremes we do the best that we can.

    > Subject: Re: D20-Team-Egoism? [33#1115]

    One of the reasons that I think no one was in a rush to respond to your
    post was the subject... its looks like you are trolling for a flame
    war. I`ll readily admit it; I have a HUGE Ego. I`m wildly successful
    by just about every measure: reasonably smart, sometimes funny,
    not entirely unappealing to the opposite sex, and I have my first
    kid on the way (Which I find very exciting). That being said...
    "say what"?

    I don`t really thing that anyone on the team has ANY ego in regards to
    the d20 project. This project is just hobby/fun time, just like all
    gaming should be IMHO. I don`t _think_ that there is any thing that
    anybody can reasonably be egotistical about. I _hope_ that all of the
    members are proud of the final work, but we aren`t even to that state
    yet. My professional reputation is important, but my _gaming
    reputation_? Ooch. I hope that I`m never to wrapped up about _that_.

    I will say this. My conversion manual was pretty ok - it sufficed for
    my players (a fairly picky crew) for over over 2 years. Many .net
    people seem to be fairly happy with it (or at least parts of it). If
    you liked that manual, then you will probably Love what we have in the
    works; it uses the stuff that everyone liked, and trashes the stuff
    that people didn`t like. If you though that my manual was a steaming
    pile, then you`ll probably think that this is two piles. Opinions will
    vary.

    (Hopefully that answers your question).

    - Doom

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Your House
    Posts
    201
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    I just wrote a long post complementing the d20 team about their participation, mentioning my trust in their being influenced by the forum, and pointing out an occasion where these situations were not so apparent. But I just hit the back button, somehow.

    I believe the Birthright d20 team has been and will continue to be influenced by forum. I believe that once they release their first product, we will all devour it. I also believe that we (the general forum-public) will strongly participate in its many revisions. I believe that the method they are using is the strongest method of getting to this point. I will site precedence by giving mention to Athas.org who has done an excellent job, so far, converting the Dark Sun setting. I also believe that patience should be the word of the day.

    On the other hand:

    Myself and a couple of other devoted birthright fans (non-team members) got into an argument with a member or two of the d20 team. It was during this argument when I had the least faith in the team. It was a nasty argument, where both (if there were only 2) sides were passionate and had valid points. However, as arguments often go, unfriendly tones crept into the argument, and there was more than a little condescension emanating from the d20 team-member participant(s). If the d20 team at large had this attitude for long, this site wouldn't exist, though. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, but just be careful on how you argue. (I don't have any hard feelings towards the team members involved, in case you were wondering).

    Even before this, I believed that arguments that are supposed to be persuasive and progressive should be:

    1. Civil (not-personal, petty, or insulting; respect all the participants)
    2. Reasoned (look at both sides of the argument)
    3. Open-Minded (remember, both sides have good and bad aspects)

    This way, when there is argument, progress can result. I believe if the d20 team and general forum can both argue in this manner, everyone will be much more appeased. If you argue disrespectfully, you and your argument will be worthless, because you'll never convince anyone of anything.

    Naturally, there will never be 100% satisfaction. I'm one of the most negative people in existence, a cynical perfectionist, maybe; thus, I will never be satisfied. But, when the manual is out, I'll definitely give credit to where credit is due.

    Before I start babbling incoherently (more so), I will end this post.
    ([_] ([_] ([_] ([_] ([_] ([_]
    Explain how this is a signature, its not my handwriting.

    The hardest part was teaching the bunnies to hug. -Duke Phillips

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.