Princes of Anuire

[A_dark]

I don't like this many princes idea. I think it was a bad idea to introduce this into SD. HOWEVER, I am glad, cos it causes a nice little mayhem, and as we all know, chaos is good :) Also, I am not involved in this dispute over titles, so it can only get more amusing for me to watch :)

[Magian]

>From: Crossfell <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
>Apparently Grand Duke translates into `Grand Prince` in Russian.
>Eventually this term became reserved for the Tsar`s descendents.
>

Tsar is the equivalent of Emperor later in the translation of the title
decreed by the Tsar (of course).

>Britannica lists `Herzog` as a German equivilant of `Duke`. I had
>thought that herzog was equivilant to `baron` as ritter was to
>`knight`. Appreciate any corrections on this.
>

Grossherzog is Archduke. The double (ss) in German is a funny symbol so you
may see it published with it instead of the two (ss).


>While I`m failing miserably to document it I had thought that Arch/Grand
>Duke in English terms designated a Duke either superior to other dukes or
>who had a very close tie to the royal bloodline.
>

I think the Grand Duke is tied both to a royal tie and an ruling autonomous
Duke and the Archduke is specifically the title of Prince in the Hapsburg
Austria.

>But to return to the original article what do you think of the `Princes of
>Anuire`? Waste of time or interesting objective in pursuit of the Iron
>Throne?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Steve


I think the whole structure of Anuirean title hierarchy is doomed to become
moot. Title inflation will be used most likely in order to satisfy those
regents who see to be emperor but cannot. So the title structure is not so
very important in a post empire world except as they affect the direct
government they are in. Princes I see more as the German princes either
Royal rulers of principalities, royal tied nobles of principalities or royal
dukes/grand dukes that have been granted regency of a principality. I am
sure Richard Baker meant this to be more structure controlled though.

ciao,


Paul

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[Magian]

>From: Crossfell <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
> Crossfell wrote:
> Has anyone attempted to incorporate the `Princes of Anuire` into their
>game? Or is this sentence so out of sync with all other published material
>that it`s better off being ignored?
>

I think the vision Richard Baker may have had in mind was the original
Empire included the 12 duchies and this has stood since they were
incorporated into the empire. As a royal family is bound to have children
and if the emperor is an expansionist it is probably useful to have these
idle princes be regents over newly conquered lands. This is how I think the
printed materials intened for the Princes to be. Thus a Prince may have
ruled over provinces in Khinasi, perhaps a few princes to balance their
bloodlines with the size of the principality and the same thing in Brechtur.
When these regions gain independance they only affected the regent and
royal family as the core 12 duchy empire was mostly unaffected and no trace
of anuirean bloodlines remain except where they were absorbed into the
current ruling class.

ciao,

Paul

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[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

According to my classes on medieval (and pre-medieval) history, a count was a title normally used to refer to a vassal ruler of a city, and was thus most common in Italy. Barons, and their equivalents, were more usually more common and would generally have more land; this wouldn't always equate to more power.

Power, title, and fealty were very convoluted and difficult to discern. The Duke of Aquitaine was more powerful and had direct control over more land than the "King" of France for many generations, however, he was considered a vassal of the Capetian King. The Duke of Normandy became the King of France and theoretically had the vassalage of all of England, but was also theoretically subordinate to France.

I don't like to second guess Richard Baker, but I believe that he may have intended the Anuirean Empire to be nearly as confusing as the real-life inspiration. Remember, almost all of Europe considered itself to be the rightful successor to (thus, synonymous with) the Roman Empire into the middle ages.

I hope I've been informative.

[kgauck]

The thing that makes medieval European titles tricky is that the same basic
set of titles means different things in different places. The meanings of
the names also change over time. The title of count comes from the Roman
titles "comes" which is an administrative office. In the context of urban
Italy, that refers to seigniorial towns. In less urban places, like
northern France, counts could be large landholders. The counts of
Champagne, Poiters, Flanders, and Anjou had between the four of them about
half of northern France.

If you examine one area in the span of only a couple hundred years, the
system actually seems pretty easy to understand and it begins to make a lot
of sense.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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