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harvs2
10-07-2002, 03:36 AM
A while back when I was actually DMing in FR, some player characters commented that magically healing is the best, and near limitless...I decided that I would teach the haughty cleric a lesson.

The player characters were all from a single town and firends three of them were clerics and were fairly high-level (between 11-12th level...they had been playing the game for nearly a year and a half). Their hometown, while they were resting between adventures, was infected by the a diease similar to the Black Plague (the town had 11,237 residents). Within three days nearly 1/3 third of the population had the diease, and I had decided earlier anyone that was healed or cured would not relapse. The cleric was approached by an elderly woman who was caring for two children who were sick...he saw them and healed them immediately. He returned home. A few hours later a large mob of sick, unsick and dying were outside his door. The were screaming and pleading for him to heal them, or thier children. An NPC looked at the character and said "Now you must decide who will die...and why." I felt bad for doing this to the player, but everytime he would heal a child, a parent would plead and beg with him to heal them so that they might not leave their child alone I made every encounter for healing, heartwrentching...family firends begging for aid etc....within 5 days, 9000 residents were dead...including his parents when they refused to be healed when there were so many younger people who had their lives ahead of them. He had healed something like 75 people but with all his magic and power he still had to watch and listen to the dying and pleading of thousands more who knew he could help them.

My players say I am evil...perhaps I am but I think something like this occuring to a preist regent in BR would be an excellent time to see them grow as players and challenge them as well.

Raesene Andu
10-07-2002, 03:48 AM
There was an adventure in the Legends of the Hero Kings book that sort of followed these lines. It involved a magical, incurable plague where healing magic was unable to help and the PCs had to risk an encounter with the Serpent to retrive a cure.

I don't think the idea that player's have no possibility of succeeding is a good idea, it isn't much fun. You have to give them a change, perhaps to find a cure by another means.

harvs2
10-07-2002, 03:50 AM
I had thought on doing that, but an adventurer need not succeed everything...but faliures should be far and few.

Raesene Andu
10-07-2002, 04:09 AM
True, it doesn't pay for PCs to always win.

One of my favourite reccuring characters from my campaigns always managed to stay one step ahead of the PCs, no matter how hard they tried to kil him.

Trithemius
10-07-2002, 08:08 AM
Harvs 2:
> I had thought on doing that, but an adventurer need not
> succeed everything...but faliures should be far and few.

I agree totally. Players need to know `lows` in order to benefit from
`highs`. Having some unresolvable problems like the plague make the
world more vivid in my opinion.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Gavin Cetaine
10-09-2002, 07:49 PM
Going back to the origional post, what was the DC of the disease, the onset time, the amount of Con loss per failed save? Obviously, if you were not just adjudicating fate on whim, then the DC was something reasonable if around 2100 people survived without magical aid. As a player, I would have realized that I only need 8 hrs of rest to regain spells, about an hour for curing the most suseptable people (ie children and willing elderly), leaving over half the day to tend to the ill. Assuming I only had enough Heal to 'combat bind' without rolling, I can tend six more people a day (combine long term care with treat disease) with a check of 24 (26 if I have enough healer's kits).

So with three clerics of 11th level, that's 30 'Remove Disease's before any bonus spells of 3rd or higher or any extra 'Heal's from the Healing domain. Thats also 24 'Lesser Restorations' before bonus spells. That means 30+ saved each day, 42+ that will hopefully be given an extra day for help to arrive, and a party of high level adventures (minus three clerics) to high-tail it to nearby cities and churches to round up help (not going in, but getting within easy shouting range so as not to spread the disease). Now, what if I happened to have made one of more Wands of Remove Disease, or several potions and/or scrolls in the past.

In a town of 11,000 that three clerics had come from, there would obviously be one or more churches, what were the clergy doing all this time? If nothing else, they could team up in pairs to try and tend to everyone. If one of those churches happened to have a paladin on hand?

Things should have been far from hopless for such high level characters because most diseases take a few days to kill all but those already frail. Besides, once the players figured out what was going on, one of those three clerics should have called up a 'Planar Ally' to help save everyone.


Now to take the plot seed a little deeper. A friend once pulled a nasty trick on my party. 1) Infect the party with a magical disease that is incurable by magical means. 2) Make the party immune to the disease. 3) Send the party on a mission to 'stop those who want to spread the disease' in some resonable distant place.

J

harvs2
10-09-2002, 08:18 PM
It was the Black Plague, i had a DC 30 save (onset 3d6 hours, next onset 5d6 hours, con loss half then the rest the following day, those once you got it once another DC of 5 to be reinfected)...those that survived rolled either 19-20 on a d20 (actually figured that about 10%-20% (ended rolling 4d4+4 for 8%-20%) of the population would be saved period). They actually saved quite a few people.

They actually did try to sleep to regain spells it is just that in a town of 11,000 that know that only you can save them...it was a little noisy to say the least, and they had constant interruptions. Normal people do not understand 'Oh, I need to rest to regain spells' while people are dying around them.

I guess that someone could have summoned a Planar Ally, it is just that normally I make the players truly PAY for such an ally. The ally is never like well go do this simply thing...I consider that the 16HD plantaur has lots of important things to do...now the PC can have one of those really really important things to do. Assuming it answered.

Generally, when I have temples a majority of the clergy DO NOT have divine powers, those sould be rare and something that sets that particular faithful memeber apart from his/her bretheren. In this case though there was a 15th level druid that was attempting to make it back at the time, though he was engaged with a town a day away which had also been infected.

Actually, I think I would have really enjoyed the bargining of the Outsider with the PC's...boy that would have been really really expensive.

Starfox
10-09-2002, 10:02 PM
harvs2 <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-10-09 22.18:

> Actually, I think I would have really enjoyed the bargining of the Outsider
> with the PC`s...boy that would have been really really expensive.

Why? Just summon the outsider and let it make it`s own descision - heal
people, or go home and live with the guild of nor having healed people. It
is the same problem the PCs themselves face.

/Carl

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Starfox
10-09-2002, 10:02 PM
Gavin Cetaine <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-10-09 21.49:

> As a player, I would have realized that I only need 8 hrs of rest to regain
> spells, about an hour for curing the most suseptable people (ie children and
> willing elderly), leaving over half the day to tend to the ill.

Divine spellcasters need not rest to prepare spells, but can only regain
spells once per 24 hours. Arcane casters need rest, and still can only use
one round of spells per 24 hours (though this is open for interpretation
when dealing with arcane casters).

So there will not be three rounds of Cure Disease per 24 hours. The Heal
skill is a mighty tool, however.

/Carl

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Mark_Aurel
10-10-2002, 02:06 AM
Actually, I think I would have really enjoyed the bargining of the Outsider with the PC's...boy that would have been really really expensive.

I don't see why. If you summon a planetar or an astral deva - why would they want to get paid so much to cast a few thousand remove disease spells? It costs them nothing but six seconds per spell, and it fits perfectly with their way of thinking - they're saving lives and all. Now, if the PCs would've summoned them to just fight something on a dungeon crawl, that should cost something. But, I think the good-aligned celestials would probably be happy to undertake healing missions like that pretty much for free. It's not like a creature of _pure good_ is going to say "nope, sorry, I'll only save these people when you PAY UP BIG TIME hahahahaaa."

If the PCs had done this, what would you've done, given that you originally stated that your idea was to "teach them a lesson" about humility? IMO, your attitude here seems to be one of denying the PCs their status - PCs of 11th+ level are certainly powers to be reckoned with on their own. Don't set up scenarios to "teach" the players something - set them up to challenge them. I think the idea here is good, but the premise of it is a bit wrong, IMO.

harvs2
10-10-2002, 02:09 AM
We have a difference in the though of Deva's. If death bad...not neccessarily. They are ultimate forces of good, but like everything else summoning a servitor of a god, should require you to do something for that god in return.

I have actually never been out to get any players save those who were munchkins.

Gavin Cetaine
10-11-2002, 09:56 PM
Thanks, Starfox, I got the rest requirement confused with the 8hr limit on casting then preparing (any spells cast within the last 8hrs count agaisnt the limit for the upcoming day). I didn't mean 1 cleric casting three rounds though, the origional post referred to 3 PC's being clerics. That's how I came up with the high numbers. 3 clerics using their entire spell complement (before bonus spells) of 3rd level and above for remove diseases.

When I mentioned the local clergy, 'If nothing else, they could team up in pairs to try and tend to everyone,' I was referring to the majority of them using the heal skill. I realize that, in the average world, most of the clergy are support staff and acolytes, not active spell casting members of the faith. A good portion of that staff should have points in the heal skill, so as not to waste the 'blessings' of the diety on any but the most serious of injuries and ailments.

As to the 'Planar Ally,' I have to think that any being from the good-aligned planes would take pity on the town for the immense suffering. If the priest were dedicated to any diety other than one containing death as a porfolio then the ally would almost certainly be moved to help the town. The cost would probably not be cheap, but then calling on an ally never really is. If the town is important enough to try to save, the PC's would almost have to agree to whatever the cost. But the GM must remember, the cost should never be something easy, but if the ally is already inclined to doing a task relatively easy to it, then it shouldn't be extremely difficult.

Of course, an ally of a cleric of a neutral diety or one with the domains of death or suffering might care less about the town's suffering. Indeed unless the priest were extremely careful with his word choices and terms, the ally might stop the plague by putting everyone out of their pain.

As to Harvs2's version of the Black Plague, have you read the info about diseases in the PHB and DMG. DC 30? Really. Mummy rot is only a 20. Most of your 11th level PC's should have caught it easily and all of them after repeated or prolonged exposure. And the damage is the loss of half you Con. Where's the 'd' that all the listed entries have?

I used the 'Black Plague' concept before and did some research on the subject to add to the realism. So let me give you a harsh version of it under the 3rd Ed rules set.

Disease..........Type.......DC..Onset....Damage
'Black Plague'..Inhaled...22...2d10*...1d3+1 Con**

* Roll a d4-1 and subtract the reult from the onset time to determine when the character becomes contagous. A contagous character contaminates a room that they spend several minutes (based on room size) in unless that room has significant and constant ventilation. Further, in conditions of less then moderate winds, the character maintains a 5' spread of disease.

** When damaged, character must succeed at another saving throw or 1 point of temporary damage is permanent drain instead.


The why's:

DC 22 is significantly dificult for the average individual and an unattainable 'take 10' for the level 1 healer. Note: You can't 'take 20' because most patients would not last 20 days.

Onset. Containment was made difficult by the wide variation in exposure to infection time. It didn't help that individuals known to be exposed were kept in the area they were exposed in. It was also believed at the time that some individuals could actually infect others before showing signs of the disease.

Damage. While the damage is significant, it is not extreme. Healthy individuals were known to last days demonstrating signs of the plague, however, the greatest portion of those who contracted the disease were anything but healthy by today's standards. Significant numbers of people died of other ailments when weakened by the actual plague.


Even as I propose it, the plague would be more fatal to a DnD town then it was in our world. Assuming that every individual in your 11000 person town was exposed at the same time, immediately went into seperate isolations, and recieved no medical or magical treatment:

At best, 1 in 20 would avoid being infected (5% or 550)

Of the infected, 1 in 400 would prove immune (.25% or 26) [2 back-to-back 20's at the conclusion of the onset time]

Another 1 in 400 could beat the disease [again, 2 back-to-back 20's after onset but before death]

That's about 600 individuals or a 5.5% survival rate among the common folk, excluding the possibilities of multiple exposures. Thus I would suggest lowering the DC to 18 or 20, as it increases the survival rate and decreases the damage to the world you apent so much time and gameplay on.

harvs2
10-12-2002, 12:05 AM
I hadn't thought about that...the DC and all though I made a typo the DC was 20 not 30. Very true about the Planar Ally, I have never thought that such summoning spells should be without their price. Actually most of the people died from HP loss from reduced constitution insteads of actually con damage interesting enough.

Gavin Cetaine
10-12-2002, 07:39 AM
Ah, I see... well we all make typos. I actually proofed my last post 3 times and still managed to put out a significant number of errors.

I'm not going to go through all the math again, but a DC 20 makes the numbers you gave/used resonable. But I do have one last question. You did pay attention to the rule that a character always maintains at least 1 hit point per level/die despite the loss of Con? The least bit of real damage will likely kill the character, but a commoner will always have at least one hit point until his Con reaches 0.

And, for the record, I believe that ally spells ahould be like the wish. Don't pull out the card if you've got any other tricks left. The ally is always going to get a good deal for itself and or its diety, and you always risk having the ally trying to corrupt the task that you require of it.

J

Nikolai II
02-02-2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Starfox

Why? Just summon the outsider and let it make it`s own descision - heal
people, or go home and live with the guild of nor having healed people. It
is the same problem the PCs themselves face.



If you live by the 'pay through the nose' routine for summoning outsiders then you are indebted to him from merely summoning him, maybe in the middle of something important.

And from an outsiders view dying by the plague might be a good thing. It places people where they belong (kill them all and let their alignments sort them out), allowing good victims a good afterlife. It also teaches the survivors humility and the lesson of caring for their lives as they never know when it is going to end.

So what you pay for isn't a crapload of six-second-heals, but rather for the interference in the worlds running.

Now, if it was a demon-spawned disease then healing might be cheaper, but then the adventurers would still have the duty/mission of preventing the return of the disesase by some hefty adventuring to the source.

Birthright-L
02-02-2003, 02:26 PM
From: "Nikolai II" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

> And from an outsiders view dying by the plague might be a good thing. It
places people where they belong (kill them all and let their alignments sort
them out), allowing good victims a good afterlife. It also teaches the
survivors humility and the lesson of caring for their lives as they never
know when it is going to end.
>

By exactlythe same logic, good characters could then claim that it is a good
deed to do absolutely nothing here. :) Why incur a favor to the forces of
good if what you are asking for is not a good deed?

/Carl


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