Honourbound closed

[Azrai]

The mail-game Honourbound has recently been closed.
Let me point out that this is a very unfair way of dealing with players, which also invested a lot of time for the character creation. what remains is a cynical text in the index-startup.
Very disappointing.

Since this page has been promoted in the Birhtright-Link-Page and some people in the forum joined it, I guess one should mention it here....

[Birthright-L]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Azrai wrote:
> The mail-game Honourbound has recently been closed. Let me point out
> that this is a very unfair way of dealing with players, which also
> invested a lot of time for the character creation. what remains is a
> cynical text in the index-startup. Very disappointing.

Eh. It`s not so bad. Running a pbem is a lot of hard work. I`ve failed
at it myself, been unable to keep up with the workload. Hats off to
`Mythos` for giving it a go.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

> On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Azrai wrote:
> > The mail-game Honourbound has recently been
> closed. Let me point out
> > that this is a very unfair way of dealing with
> players, which also
> > invested a lot of time for the character creation.
> what remains is a
> > cynical text in the index-startup. Very
> disappointing.
>
> Eh. It`s not so bad. Running a pbem is a lot of
> hard work. I`ve failed
> at it myself, been unable to keep up with the
> workload. Hats off to
> `Mythos` for giving it a go.

Indeed. People should try to be more understanding of
the DM and how much work is involved. I for one can
perfectly understand why a cynical message might have
been left on the index. The amount of work put into
character creation is really no comparison to DMing an
entire email game.
You say it`s unfair? Well I think it`s probably safe
to assume that the DM didn`t just start the game just
to close it down and jerk people`s chains.... don`t
forget that the DM is also trying to have a good time.
But you have to realize that things happen. Real
life must always take priority, and things happen in
real life that can`t be planned.

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[Lord Grave]

> > On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Azrai wrote:
> > > The mail-game Honourbound has recently been
> > closed. Let me point out
> > > that this is a very unfair way of dealing with
> > players, which also
> > > invested a lot of time for the character creation.
> > what remains is a
> > > cynical text in the index-startup. Very
> > disappointing.
> >
> > Eh. It`s not so bad. Running a pbem is a lot of
> > hard work. I`ve failed
> > at it myself, been unable to keep up with the
> > workload. Hats off to
> > `Mythos` for giving it a go.
>
> Indeed. People should try to be more understanding of
> the DM and how much work is involved. I for one can
> perfectly understand why a cynical message might have
> been left on the index. The amount of work put into
> character creation is really no comparison to DMing an
> entire email game.
> You say it`s unfair? Well I think it`s probably safe
> to assume that the DM didn`t just start the game just
> to close it down and jerk people`s chains.... don`t
> forget that the DM is also trying to have a good time.
> But you have to realize that things happen. Real
> life must always take priority, and things happen in
> real life that can`t be planned.
>

I don`t entirely agree. DMs start their own games and it is entirely up
to them...at least until the game really starts and the players are
hooked up. If you try to provide the players with all the info and then
suddenly close the game, it is all your mistake, but players don`t
suffer.

When you demand that players fill in their own sheets and close the game
when they do, it is entirely different problem. They do it to help you
run the game, expecting to have some fun when it starts, and you
suddenly close it and all the effort is in vain.

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[kgauck]

Creative effort is never in vain. Ideas and concepts created can be used in
other games. Sometimes your whole effort can be ported directly into
another game.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Trithemius]

Milos Rasic:
> When you demand that players fill in their own sheets and
> close the game when they do, it is entirely different
> problem. They do it to help you run the game, expecting to
> have some fun when it starts, and you suddenly close it and
> all the effort is in vain.

I find that this tradition of making the players fill out their own
domain sheets to be very daft. It can only lead to inconsistency and
error and problems like those that Milos mentioned.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Birthright-L]

> I don`t entirely agree. DMs start their own games
> and it is entirely up
> to them...at least until the game really starts and
> the players are
> hooked up. If you try to provide the players with
> all the info and then
> suddenly close the game, it is all your mistake, but
> players don`t
> suffer.
>
> When you demand that players fill in their own
> sheets and close the game
> when they do, it is entirely different problem. They
> do it to help you
> run the game, expecting to have some fun when it
> starts, and you
> suddenly close it and all the effort is in vain.

That`s not entirely the truth. Many people simply
don`t fill out their domain sheets completely or put
all the needed information into their turns... that
very quickly adds up DM workload. And as Kenneth
said, no creative effort is ever in vain.... no matter
how small.
In Honorbound, I played the Red Witch. I never really
got to play her, but the background I typed up for her
will no doubt find its way into some gaming enterprise
or another I undertake down the road.
A lot of people people seem to get jaded and cynical
when "yet another pbem dies and all my efforts are
wasted." What do I say to that? Step back, take a
breath and quite being so angry. Every game that is
run, no matter how long it lasts, adds to the totality
of creativity in the BR community.

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[Birthright-L]

> Every game that is run, no matter how long it lasts,
adds to the totality of creativity in the BR
community. <

I can see and appreciate the sentiment of the
above statement. I stongly suspect, however, that is
not the primary motivation of people who play the PBEM
games. :)

Darkke


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[Ariadne]

I feel sad about it. IMO nobody is perfect and I must touch my own nose with making some mistakes (but I tried to remove them). It was the first time, I started to play an e-mail game and everybody is able to learn. If the DM has real personal or time problems, it's O.K. that he closed it, but he should have informed the players about it...

The thing with my character (the leader of the White Swords) is a little bit funny, because I don't know until today, which bloodline she has...

[Lord Grave]

>
> Milos Rasic:
> > When you demand that players fill in their own sheets and close the
> > game when they do, it is entirely different problem. They do it to
> > help you run the game, expecting to have some fun when it
> starts, and
> > you suddenly close it and all the effort is in vain.
>
> I find that this tradition of making the players fill out
> their own domain sheets to be very daft. It can only lead to
> inconsistency and error and problems like those that Milos mentioned.
>

The only PBeMs in which DMs fill the sheets themselves were/are False
Hopes, Legacy of Ruins and Ruins of Empire. Maybe accidentaly, maybe
not, those are the best PBeMs I have ever played in.

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[Lord Grave]

> I feel sad about it. IMO nobody is perfect and I must touch
> my own nose with making some mistakes (but I tried to remove
> them). It was the first time, I started to play an e-mail
> game and everybody is able to learn. If the DM has real
> personal or time problems, it`s O.K. that he closed it, but
> he should have informed the players about it...
>
> The thing with my character (the leader of the White Swords)
> is a little bit funny, because I don`t know until today,
> which bloodline she has...
>

I feel sad to. I tried playing in Khinasi games twice, in Plains of
Blood and now in Honorbound. Plains of Blood ended after a couple of
turns and Honorbound never started. Hopefully, we will be expanding
www.ItSoD2.tk to the western Khinasi, so you people will still have a
Khinasi game to play in. Sadly, it will be only a small part of that
region, so don`t expect many openings.

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[Birthright-L]

> I find that this tradition of making the players
> fill out their own
> domain sheets to be very daft. It can only lead to
> inconsistency and
> error and problems like those that Milos mentioned.

I`m curious as to why you think it`s so daft. If
there`s some kind of inconsistancy or error or
problem, it`s a simple matter to fix it.

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[Trithemius]

Chris L.:
> I`m curious as to why you think it`s so daft. If
> there`s some kind of inconsistancy or error or
> problem, it`s a simple matter to fix it.

I would have thought it was easier to give out pre-checked sheets at the
beginning. That way there woulsn`t be any errors to correct and the
players would all be given an example of how their sheets should be
maintained.

YMMV

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Raesene Andu]

Orginally posted by Trithemius

I would have thought it was easier to give out pre-checked sheets at the
beginning. That way there woulsn`t be any errors to correct and the
players would all be given an example of how their sheets should be
maintained.


Do you have any idea of how hard it is to do this, especially as you are trying to organise the game at the same time. Any then players you write up sheets for never start the game. The best way is to set up a strandard form that you get players to fill in. Anyone who doesn't fill one in, doesn't start the game. You can then correct any errors, which is a lot easier to do that writing them all out to start with, as the majority of people will usually be fairly close to correct.

The main mistake most people starting up pbems make though is allowing too many players. A single DM should never have more than 20 players maximum, any more and the game becomes unmanagble.

[Lord Grave]

>
> I would have thought it was easier to give out pre-checked
> sheets at the beginning. That way there woulsn`t be any
> errors to correct and the players would all be given an
> example of how their sheets should be maintained. [/quote]
>
> Do you have any idea of how hard it is to do this, especially
> as you are trying to organise the game at the same time. Any
> then players you write up sheets for never start the game.
> The best way is to set up a strandard form that you get
> players to fill in. Anyone who doesn`t fill one in, doesn`t
> start the game. You can then correct any errors, which is a
> lot easier to do that writing them all out to start with, as
> the majority of people will usually be fairly close to correct.
>
> The main mistake most people starting up pbems make though is
> allowing too many players. A single DM should never have more
> than 20 players maximum, any more and the game becomes unmanagble.
>


Well, I hope you are not right, or I am done for :-)

Anyway, my opinion probably comes from the fact that it is very hard for
me to check the stuff written by others.

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[Lord Grave]

>
> Chris L.:
> > I`m curious as to why you think it`s so daft. If
> > there`s some kind of inconsistancy or error or
> > problem, it`s a simple matter to fix it.
>
> I would have thought it was easier to give out pre-checked
> sheets at the beginning. That way there woulsn`t be any
> errors to correct and the players would all be given an
> example of how their sheets should be maintained.
>
>

They don`t even have to maintain the sheets at all. Maintaining the
sheets once they initial job is over is a piece of cake.

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[Raesene Andu]

Agreed, once done maintaining the domain sheets for each player is only a few minutes work each turn.

And on the number of players, it depend on how much free time you have. If you work (or study, or whatever) 5 days of the week, that only really leaves you maybe 1-2 hours a weekday + weekends to work on turns.

You need, on average, about 30 minutes to resolve each player's turns depending on the amount of effort you put into it. So for 20 players that comes in at 10 hours solid work. Answering e-mails, diplomacy messages, questions, etc adds around hour a day at least. If you have a pbem newspaper that add another hour minumim, maintaining the webpage (depending on complexity) say another hour. So you are looking at around 1 hour of work for each player each turn. So with 20 players a DM can expect to put in 20 hours a work a week maintaining a pbem game. If you have more, then it takes longer. It may start off not needing that long, but believe me, after a few turns, when the wars start to explode, you will need that time and more.

[Trithemius]

Raesane Andu:
> Do you have any idea of how hard it is to do this, especially
> as you are trying to organise the game at the same time. Any
> then players you write up sheets for never start the game.
> The best way is to set up a strandard form that you get
> players to fill in. Anyone who doesn`t fill one in, doesn`t
> start the game. You can then correct any errors, which is a
> lot easier to do that writing them all out to start with, as
> the majority of people will usually be fairly close to correct.

Yes I do have an idea. I consider one of the requirements necessary to
run a game. If I am going to have to enter them all into a program
anyway, then I don`t see why I don`t just do it all at once before the
game starts and then send them out.

> The main mistake most people starting up pbems make though is
> allowing too many players. A single DM should never have more
> than 20 players maximum, any more and the game becomes unmanagble.

I am inclined to agree with you, although it does depend on the players.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Birthright-L]

That`s a pretty good assessment... especially when
the wars erupt. I myself settle for about 30 players
in a pbem. Any more than that and it becomes too much
work to handle. Any less than 20 and it becomes
somewhat boring for me... the players end up going to
war with NPCs more often than each other, and that`s
not nearly as interesting for me (especially since
trying to devise adequate war plans for the NPCs takes
up more time).


> And on the number of players, it depend on how much
> free time you have. If you work (or study, or
> whatever) 5 days of the week, that only really
> leaves you maybe 1-2 hours a weekday + weekends to
> work on turns.
>
> You need, on average, about 30 minutes to resolve
> each player`s turns depending on the amount of
> effort you put into it. So for 20 players that comes
> in at 10 hours solid work. Answering e-mails,
> diplomacy messages, questions, etc adds around hour
> a day at least. If you have a pbem newspaper that
> add another hour minumim, maintaining the webpage
> (depending on complexity) say another hour. So you
> are looking at around 1 hour of work for each player
> each turn. So with 20 players a DM can expect to put
> in 20 hours a work a week maintaining a pbem game.
> If you have more, then it takes longer. It may start
> off not needing that long, but believe me, after a
> few turns, when the wars start to explode, you will
> need that time and more.


=====
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[Raesene Andu]

I find that a good NPC enemy can just about be as exciting as PC battling each other. In fact, in most cases I prefer it. That said, one of my most interesting conflicts of all time was between two players who decided they didn't like each other and went to war.