View Full Version : Diplomacy

12-05-2001, 06:46 AM
I've got a PC who is being exceedingly difficult. They are wanting to doing things that just don't flow with the general layout of the campaign. Basically, the issue is the PC (regent of Alamie) is wanting to perform Diplomacy with Tournen and virtually patch everything over and be buddy, buddy with a single Domain Action. This doesn't fly with me. The regent has the commitment to spend resources to keep the success roll maxed out and I think its poor GMing on my part to simply say that Tournen has an equal number of RPs and GBs necessary to oppose him. I'm not opposed to the idea of the two realms smoothing things over, its just that its unrealistic to do a 180 in relations with a single Domain Action.

Instead I got to thinking of an alternate Diplomacy system, sort of like the one in the PC version. Basically you assign a number (1 to 100... as persentage; higher is better) representing the current realtionship between to realms. i.e. Tournen and Alamie have been at war something like 140 years... they have a whole 10%)

If a regent wants to improve relations this factor can be modified as follows:
+1% per RP or GB (one time cost)
+2% per RP or GB (in Tribute; paid each Domain Turn indefinately)
+3% per level of holding given (level 4 = 12%)
+5% per level of province given (level 3 = 15%)
+25% Marriage between members of regents families
Modifiers for the diplomats involved in the action
+ or - any amount for spiteful GM ruling.

60% minimum to form trade alliance
75% minimum to form a minimal alliance

once the minimum % is reached the regent would still need to make a successful Domain Action roll.

Let me know what you think.

12-05-2001, 08:01 AM
This is an interesting concept. I like it a bunch.

Do you have a base file for all of Anuire yet? I'd like a look if/when you do.

SIGH... Birthright shoudl come with a disclaimer on the box: "Warning: MAximum potential for book keeping"...

Lord Eldred
12-07-2001, 02:12 AM
On diplomacy
Well that sounds interesting, even though that makes many alliances nearly impossible! I've always trusted common sense for these occasions better than rules. If Tuornen and Alamie have been enemies so far, then the player should understand there's no possibility to improve things. If one of the Domains is played as a NPC I'd surely lure the PC and then committ treachery. The NPC would have changed his mind.

12-07-2001, 02:56 AM
I'm all for the union eventually... though I have entertained the treachery idea. The cheif complaint is if played by the rules the restoration could conceivable happen in a single domain turn.

I don't want to completely rule it out, but suggestions from adivisors didn't work. They haven't met with the regent of Tournen yet,but they may in the VERY NEAR future... possible tonight or tomorrow.

I just wanted to quantify the matter rather then simply use GM discretion. It gives them a method of measurement rather then blaming it on a "mean gumbling hard-headed GM" (though that is fitting... at times).

I don't feel that this makes alliances impossible. IF two realms have no negative feeling toward each other they would start at 50%. A single action with 5 RP and 5GB (assuming there is no modifiers.. which depending on the terms there always are.) and the initial trade pact is sealed. A more detailed pact would require more time and thought to work out the details which is realistic. Their isn't exactly a one-size fits all allaince. There is generally a lot of haggleing and compromise before a deal is worked out.

Another modifier would be alignment...offering up to a +10% either way. That alone is enough to get most trade agreements sealed in a single month... and with some effort most alliances down pat.

12-07-2001, 03:17 AM
I never liked the idea of using success rolls for diplomacy actions. Rather, I have always role-played the encounters with the PCs, and it was a simple matter of role-playing and negociation between the PCs and NPCs. Diplomacy shouldn't always work because the PC has a ton of ressources. Sometimes, there are things that just can't be resolved with a die roll.

12-07-2001, 03:52 AM
Agreed I roleplay them as well. I was just trying to come up with a standard to help my PC understand the difficulty. plus no matter how well they roleplay they still have to fork over the RP or GBs. good roleplaying nets up to a +-6 modifier. I'm a stickler for punishing poor roleplaying.

01-16-2002, 06:54 PM
I would agree 100%

Diplomacy needs to based more on roleplay and time, rather than a resource backed die roll.

180's don't happen over night, unless there were some extreme circumstances and an amazing well roleplayed negotiation.

Riegan Swordwraith
01-17-2002, 03:52 PM
With all the animosity between Alamie and Tournen,an overnight alliance would be impossible without someform of skull-duggery(I don't know...Say hiring a doppleganger to replace one or the other).But as a DM you reserve the right to abjudicate the game as you see fit.If you say that no matter what the mechanics say,you say no,the player has to accept it.I would be diplomatic of course.I would tell the player out-of-game that you have made a ruling that he cannot get what he(or she) wants how he wants it.

Just my two bits.....

01-17-2002, 04:39 PM
Make the "success role" an "attraction role". That is, if the roll is unsuccessful, then the other regent didn't even care, he sent you back immediately. If you succeeded, then you have attracted his attention and you may Roleplay the situation (either as a diplomat or as the regent). The roleplaying could take as much as you think it proper. Make this modification a house rule, unless the outcome of the diplomatic attempt is trivial (i.e. donate 10 GBs to Ghoere so that he does not attack you for the following year! ... quite trivial, unless Ghoere already plans attacking you)!
Also, let him know that you reserve the right to impose special penalnties on the roll DC, based on miscellaneous factors (DM judgement above all!); an Alam-Tuornen diplomatic agreement of truce would be much more difficult than a common diplomatic event and this should be reflected in the mechanics as well.

01-18-2002, 07:24 PM
If the Tuor regent agreed to an overnight right off the bat change in relation with Alamie, going from total enmity to full alliance, its likely that he's losing his throne from the revolt and rebellions that will come knocking out his door. Sometimes, a prideful people is good to rule... sometimes not.

01-23-2002, 03:25 PM
Putting realism aside for a second...

Would the alliance help your game? If it does, then allow it to happen. Maybe not in one turn, but let it be fast.

I'd allow anything that helps the game. Of course, sometimes it can be a bit of a stretch. Treat it as an exercise in creativity... it HAS happened, now explain how, why, etc...

Why would an enemy jump into such an alliance overnight?
There are a million possibilities... so let one of the answers come out in play.

After all, like Mr Burns on the Simpson's said "I keep my friends close, and my enemies even closer".

01-25-2002, 04:14 AM
Orginally posted by Sellenus
After all, like Mr Burns on the Simpson's said "I keep my friends close, and my enemies even closer".
Actually, I beleive that quote originates with Sun Tzu in the "Art of War".

Riegan Swordwraith
01-25-2002, 06:40 AM
But did Mr.Burns say that before or after Maggie shot him???? =P

01-25-2002, 03:21 PM
Thank you for the correction Mr Law, however I never actually heard Sun Tzu say it!;)

I DID see the episode when Mr Burns bought the Power Plant back then re-hired Homer. That is when he said it, and I HEARD it because of the powers of TV.

01-25-2002, 03:22 PM
ps 2 stars...

I've begun to develop a big mouth

Arlen Blaede
01-26-2002, 04:30 PM
Really, this question is about your storyline. Yes the PCs should be able to affect the world around them, especially if they are regents, but do you, as regent of their reality, think that this should be an easy or painful process. If you are looking for a reason and the player regent really wants the alliance, then you might have another realm invade Tournen and this might motivate the PCs to aid Tournen in defense.

As with individual characters its easier to trust someone once they have shed blood for you. And since it sounds like you wouldn't mind it. Work with the PCs to come up with a way to bring the two warring nations together.

Green Knight
03-07-2002, 11:02 AM
You would be justified in assigning a DC of 1345 (or something like that). Patching thing up between Tuornen and Alamie could be the focus of an entire campaign. Break it up into a myraid diplomacy actions with a reasonable DC instead. And then there is the loss of loyalty and the requirementf for many agitate actions. Etc. etc.

03-07-2002, 10:50 PM
Orginally posted by Sellenus
Thank you for the correction Mr Law, however I never actually heard Sun Tzu say it!;)

Yep, that would be unlikely since the guy's been dead for a couple millenium by now. :P

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel
03-08-2002, 07:30 AM
Orginally posted by Temujin

Orginally posted by Sellenus
Thank you for the correction Mr Law, however I never actually heard Sun Tzu say it!;)

Yep, that would be unlikely since the guy's been dead for a couple millenium by now. :P

Do you suppose he said it to himself while he wrote it, or just came up with it at the last minute?

03-08-2002, 08:53 PM
I say everything I write out loud... but theres not really much of a comparison...;)

03-09-2002, 06:46 AM
I agree with what a lot of people here have been saying. You should let them, just make sure that he role-plays it properly and takes the proper time. And I wouldn't rule out a complete 180 in relations in one month, enemies can be become allies mighty fast when they both have something immediate and beneficial to gain.