Orogs

[kgauck]

"WotC`s Rich Baker posted the table of contents for Races of Faerun (slated
for March 2003) on the Realms-L list (scooper: Jason)"
quoted from http://www.enworld.org/

Chapter Five: Half-orcs and Orcs
-Gray Orc
-Half-orc
-Mountain Orc
-Orog

I`m keen on that last one. As I mentioned in the deep past, I rather
reverse the order played out above. Orog is my standard, and orc is a
runtish sub-species used as slaves. But, I am very interested in seeing
what the official Orog material looks like. So far I`ve just been using
orcs with 3 levels of warrior. I have visions of a tougher orog than the
one on the BR card, but I am eager to see what they do with it.

Two of the PrC`s look intriguing.
-Battlerager
-Orc Warlord
The first for reasons of Rjurik interest, the second for its adaptability
for orogs. With the Bloodskull Barony a perpetual source of potential
combat, such things wet my appitite.

If someone gets this book, do let inquiring minds know what`s convertable to
BR.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Sir Justine]

Hummm... I understand it right? Did Forgotten "borrowed" the orogs from Birthright? It appears everything can be found in Faerun!

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sir Justine" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 7:15 AM

> Hummm... I understand it right? Did Forgotten "borrowed" the
> orogs from Birthright? It appears everything can be found in Faerun!

I`m not sure how unique they were to BR. Orogs were a tougher version of
orc, in the same way hobgoblins were tougher goblins, and flind were tougher
gnolls. With the 3e idea of just adding character levels to monsters, there
is less need for tougher versions of familiar monsters (note I have been
satisfactorily using orcs with 3 warrior levels for orogs). In the case of
goblins, one of the things they did was to change the favored class, so that
goblins prefer advancing as rogues and hobgoblins as warriors or fighters.
I assume that whenever orogs (or flinds) are added back in it will not be as
general monsters, that being made unneccesary by character levels, but as
special alternate versions in specific settings, or as the suppliments for
those who like oodles of monsters.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Sir Justine wrote:
> Hummm... I understand it right? Did Forgotten "borrowed" the orogs
> from Birthright? It appears everything can be found in Faerun!

What? No. Orogs have been a staple of D&D monster lists since long
before BR, and I think it`s a travesty that they weren`t included in the
3e Monster Manual.

They were given a prominent place in BR to differentiate the setting from
others, like FR and Grayhawk, in which the orc is the primary evil
humanoid race.

Personally, I prefer a more Tolkienesque genetics, so all the humanoids
(goblin, hobgoblin, orc, bugbear, orog, ogre) are pretty much one species.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Raesene Andu]

Personally, I prefer a more Tolkienesque genetics, so all the humanoids (goblin, hobgoblin, orc, bugbear, orog, ogre) are pretty much one species.


There is nothing to say that they are not. Perhaps centuries of enslavement by the elves stunted the growth of the goblins :)

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 9:52 AM


> Personally, I prefer a more Tolkienesque genetics, so all the humanoids
> (goblin, hobgoblin, orc, bugbear, orog, ogre) are pretty much one species.

As they are in traditional folklore. The original authors of D&D monsterdom
consciously sought to consider each permutation a seperate monster as a
source of variety. So kobalds (German for goblin) are not goblins in
Brectur, but a seperate monster type. So, when they made medua and gorgon
two seperate monsters, I rather think they were following their design
philosophy, and not acting out of ignorance.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Raesene Andu" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 10:39 AM

> There is nothing to say that they are not. Perhaps centuries of
> enslavement by the elves stunted the growth of the goblins :)

I rather think that hobgoblins and goblins are one species. Being rather
cruel, they deny the runts and reward the larger young. So that only the
hobgoblins have grown to full size and strength. The goblins, smaller and
weaker to begin with, turn more towards stealth and cunning to avoid getting
lost entirely in the search for rewards in goblin society.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Personally, I prefer a more Tolkienesque genetics, so all the humanoids
> > (goblin, hobgoblin, orc, bugbear, orog, ogre) are pretty much one species.
>
> As they are in traditional folklore. The original authors of D&D monsterdom
> consciously sought to consider each permutation a seperate monster as a
> source of variety. So kobalds (German for goblin) are not goblins in
> Brectur, but a seperate monster type. So, when they made medua and gorgon
> two seperate monsters, I rather think they were following their design
> philosophy, and not acting out of ignorance.

I didn`t really accuse them of ignorance, just that I didn`t like it. You
can do just as well by statting out the orc species using levels, and
giving them names based on minor variations. A goblin would be a commoner
orc, with 1d6 hp. A hobgoblin might be a warrior, etc. Give them levels,
make their favored class variable like humans, and you can get pretty much
what they have now. Ogres might be far enough off the common stock to get
their own species writeup.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[geeman]

Speaking of orogs... shouldn`t they be included as a list of possible
character races in a 3e version of BR? Goblins were also excluded from the
list in the Rulebook.

Gary

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[Trithemius]

Gary:
> Speaking of orogs... shouldn`t they be included as a list of
> possible character races in a 3e version of BR? Goblins were
> also excluded from the list in the Rulebook.

Hear hear!

I think that all the humanoid monster races should be included as
potential playing material for BR - gnolls, orogs, and goblins of every
shape and size.

These creatures are at least as playable as Sidhe or Vos characters :)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 2:31 AM

> I think that all the humanoid monster races should be included as
> potential playing material for BR - gnolls, orogs, and goblins of every
> shape and size.

That seems to be what`s behind Races of Faerun. I`d like to see complete
work-ups of these. For example, right now, I`m allowing Weapon
Specialization to be a feat that any Orog can take with a BAB of +4 or
better. I do this in part to reflect that the card tells us that 6 HD
chiefs do +4 damage rather than the standard +2 damage (which is now a
reflection of their 15 Str). Rather than giving them super strength, the
martial character of their culture with its state of "perpetual war" make
this access sensible to me. I am sure a thorough-going approach will yield
all kinds of decisions about what is appropraite and inappropriate for
orogs.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Sir Justine]

Orginally posted by Trithemius

Gary:
> Speaking of orogs... shouldn`t they be included as a list of
> possible character races in a 3e version of BR? Goblins were
> also excluded from the list in the Rulebook.

Hear hear!

I think that all the humanoid monster races should be included as
potential playing material for BR - gnolls, orogs, and goblins of every
shape and size.

These creatures are at least as playable as Sidhe or Vos characters :)



Actually I woudn't worry much with this because if you follow the rules in the DMG you can use any monster as a pc race. Sure, the designers normally do a better work on a race originally made for pcs, like what Kenneth is doing.


Orginally posted by Daniel
What? No. Orogs have been a staple of D&D monster lists since long
before BR, and I think it`s a travesty that they weren`t included in the
3e Monster Manual.

They were given a prominent place in BR to differentiate the setting from
others, like FR and Grayhawk, in which the orc is the primary evil
humanoid race.

Personally, I prefer a more Tolkienesque genetics, so all the humanoids
(goblin, hobgoblin, orc, bugbear, orog, ogre) are pretty much one species.


Hmm, it's just that the first time I saw orogs was on Birthright...
I agree that goblins and hob and bug should be the same race, the same way there are dogs of different size. But, at least IMC the orogs are a different race. IMC orogs live in the underground and are the ancestral enemies of the dwarves, and goblins live more on (dark) forets and are enemies of elfs. About other classical humanoid, the ogre, I'm not decided if he should be a kind of degenerate giant or a big cousin of orogs (as they live on mountains and are too enemies of the dwarfs) or even of the goblins.

[Mark_Aurel]

Allowing orogs to take weapon specialization at +4 BAB instead of 4 fighter levels will make orog barbarians far stronger, to the detriment of their fighters - not quite sure if that's a desirable goal; weapon specialization generally represent a roughly 20-30% boost in damage output, and has always been one of the main selling points of fighters, or taking fighter levels.

Note for Sir Justine - if you have 2e MM, check page 282, under the Orc entry - orogs are noted as a subspecies there; they were also in the original Monstrous Compendium, as well as likely some 1e products (my memory doesn't go that far back).

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by kgauck

So kobalds (German for goblin) are not goblins in Brectur, but a seperate monster type.
Err... no! Kobold isn't goblin in German (O.K., you will find it in a dictionary, but they don't know, what goblins are) and also not the AD&D version of Kobold. With the original "German" Kobold is meant the Leprechaun (this Irish guy with the gold pot).


Originally posted by Trithemius

These creatures are at least as playable as Sidhe or Vos characters
A sidhe is always playable (I play nearly every time someone with at least a bit sidhelien blood in his veins) but with those vos you're right. Perhaps I would prefer to play an orog or bugbear instead of a vos!

By the way, in the Kalamar Campaign it is possible to play goblins or hobgoblins as a PC race (without ECL), why not playing them here...


Originally posted by Mark_Aurel

weapon specialization generally represent a roughly 20-30% boost in damage output, and has always been one of the main selling points of fighters, or taking fighter levels.
If you're high-level enough, the specialization will only be a 5-10% boost for damage (magical weapons, girdle of giant strength etc.), but allowing it to an orog in such a low level will make him over dimensionally strong, that's right. And most characters ONLY take levels as a fighter to get this specialization, for nothing else (O.K., if they are regents, then perhaps for the law holding excess too).

[kgauck]

Looking at the folklore of early Europeans, the goblin
is also a little household trickster who might frighten
children but was mostly an annoyance to adults.
Brownies, faries, goblins, bogeymen, leprechauns,
gremlins, and the rest are only regional varriations on
a theme: "the mischievious little people who are bent on
making me search for my keys every day." As travel
expanded and people`s folklore traditions began to
encounter one another, the different names became
associated with special characteristics. At root,
they`re all just a generalized semi-magical little
people who cause mischief.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
> Ariadne wrote:
> Err... no! Kobold isn`t goblin in German (O.K., you will find it in a
> dictionary, but they don`t know, what goblins are) and also not the AD&D version
> of Kobold. With the original "German" Kobold is meant the Leprechaun (this Irish
> guy with the gold pot).

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark_Aurel" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:15 AM


> Allowing orogs to take weapon specialization at +4 BAB
> instead of 4 fighter levels will make orog barbarians far
> stronger, to the detriment of their fighters - not quite sure
> if that`s a desirable goal; weapon specialization generally
> represent a roughly 20-30% boost in damage output, and
> has always been one of the main selling points of fighters,
> or taking fighter levels.

I`m not sure its a desirable goal either, but given the choice between a way
to represent orog NPC`s and the orog PC write-up comming in the future
(either the FR or the BR), I have found it works. Part of this is because I
have made nearly all orogs warriors with the remainder being adepts. My
long term goal isn`t to find a permenent solution in this way, its to
abandon my temp fix in favor of an official 3e orog between now and next
spring. I`m trying to match the familiar orog of BR rules, rather than do a
complete conversion. Weapon Specialization gives high HD orogs the +2 to
damage the orog card leads me to expect with the fewest wacky side effects.
As DM, even if I chose to make barbarian orogs (which I`m not inclined to
do) I could always choose not to give any NPC any specific feat. PC orogs
will have to wait until I see an orog PC write-up I feel good about.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Azrai]

The names:

Germany has a totally different myth-history than for example Ireland or Spain. You can not compare them by throwing all together in the term "Europe myth".

In fact there is no figure like a goblin in german myth - so Goblin translated would be just Goblin. What a Kobold means, Ariadne pointed out.

Brownies, leprechauns are unknown, but could be compared to german KObolds or "Heinzelmänchen".

Faries are often mixed up with Elfs.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by kgauck

Looking at the folklore of early Europeans, the goblin is also a little household trickster who might frighten children but was mostly an annoyance to adults.
Oh yes, J.K. Rowling has reawakened it with a little bit difference as a "house-elf" (see "Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban"). Actually this is mostly the Irish folklore, where this believe is alive until today.

Otherwise Brownies, goblins, bogeymen are mostly unknown and the "elf" is confused with a pixie (thanks goodness they made a film of Tolkien's "Lord of the rings", so most know a true elf today). Oh, and if you ask a German after a gremlin, you will get the answer: "Oh, these little hairy monsters with the large ears of the film..."

[kgauck]

> Azrai wrote:
>
> Germany has a totally different myth-history than for
> example Ireland or Spain. You can not compare them by
> throwing all together in the term "Europe myth".

Germans and Celts have a common origin and their stories
can, and have been examined for their common themes and
elements. One of these is the role of these little
mischevious people. We could go further, a la Campbell,
and just group all human myths together as well. It is
one thing to observe that each different groups have
different elements in their folklore, but that is not
then same thing as saying that they are totally
different. Syncreticism in folklore and comparative
mythology is not only possible, it can be useful.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

> Ariadne wrote:
> Otherwise Brownies, goblins, bogeymen are mostly
> unknown and the "elf" is confused with a pixie (thanks
> goodness they made a film of Tolkien`s "Lord of
> the rings", so most know a true elf today). Oh, and if
> you ask a German after a gremlin, you will get the
> answer: "Oh, these little hairy monsters with the
> large ears of the film..."

This is because rather than translating these creatures,
within a culture we known them by one name. These are
all the many names of one kind of creature. Its like
arguinig that puerta, Tür, porte, door, and the name of
this object in every language represents a different
object.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Azrai]

Orginally posted by kgauck
It is
one thing to observe that each different groups have
different elements in their folklore, but that is not
then same thing as saying that they are totally
different. Syncreticism in folklore and comparative
mythology is not only possible, it can be useful.


No need to go into detail. It was just the idea to correct your wrong translation of the word "goblin".

[Birthright-L]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Sir Justine wrote:
> Hmm, it`s just that the first time I saw orogs was on Birthright...
>
> I agree that goblins and hob and bug should be the same race, the same
> way there are dogs of different size. But, at least IMC the orogs are
> a different race. IMC orogs live in the underground and are the
> ancestral enemies of the dwarves, and goblins live more on (dark)
> forets and are enemies of elfs. About other classical humanoid, the
> ogre, I`m not decided if he should be a kind of degenerate giant or a
> big cousin of orogs (as they live on mountains and are too enemies of
> the dwarfs) or even of the goblins.

In 3e, ogres are closer to giants than orc/orogs. They can be seen as a
degenerate form of the more advanced giants taht used to inhabit Cerilia,
just like the fhoimorien and the forest giants (I think).
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Green Knight]

The FR computer game "Icewind Dale" included some lamely named "neo-orogs".

[blitzmacher]

IMC Orogs and Ogres are related. I have it that at one time they were the same race. Before history was recorded there was a split among them, some went to delve underground and the others stayed. Although the reason for the split is unknown, there are some oral histories that both races have passed down. There seems to be some evidance that what became the ogres wanted to keep with tribal tradition and remain in their loosely structured barbian type society, regardless of the threat of elves. While those who were to become Orogs wanted to get away from the retribution from the elves and fled underground. Those that stayed above ground grew in size due to the abundance of game in Cerilia, and have evolved into the Ogres we know today. The ones that went underground actually became shorter in stature due to being in tunnels and a limited diet, especially in the beginning. Thats how I play'em anyhow.

[Starfox]

My very subjective approach is that orogs are totally unrelated to orcs.
Orogs are the descendants of humans who got trapped on the plane of shadow
when it turned bad. The orogs do not really have their base underground -
there is no underdark or other large cave system IMC - but rather in the
shadow world.

Now, they are slaves to more powerful shadow world creatures, and seek to
escape by going into Cerilia proper - thrugh dark places such as caves and
mines.

I also have a similar explaination for my drow - who are actually
halfling-based, remnants of the halflings who never leftt the shadow world.
Think of tiny, black, evil elfquest elves. :-)

All of this is stricty IMC, however.

/Carl

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[Lee]

In a message dated 10/7/02 7:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG writes:

<< blitzmacher wrote:
IMC Orogs and Ogres are related. I have it that at one time they were the
same race. Before history was recorded there was a split among them, some
went to delve underground and the others stayed. . . . >>

Hmm, I hadn`t thought of that. I had gone as far as saying that orogs
and dwarves were ancient race-enemies, as are elves vs. goblins, but linking
orogs and ogres, that`s good.
A tighter link would be to put them together, same as the three flavors
of goblin.

Thanks for the food for thought,
Lee.

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[Lysander]

Originally posted by Lee


In a message dated 10/7/02 7:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG writes:

<< blitzmacher wrote:
IMC Orogs and Ogres are related. I have it that at one time they were the
same race. Before history was recorded there was a split among them, some
went to delve underground and the others stayed. . . . >>

Hmm, I hadn`t thought of that. I had gone as far as saying that orogs
and dwarves were ancient race-enemies, as are elves vs. goblins, but linking
orogs and ogres, that`s good.
A tighter link would be to put them together, same as the three flavors
of goblin.

Thanks for the food for thought,
Lee.




Not that I can check at the moment (all of my AD&D stuff is packed for a move the end of this week) but I seem to remember that Orogs were actually "half orcs" in the sense that they were were produced from mating Orc and Ogre - or at least started that way. Since I'l the only one from my group that will DM (or at this moment knows any specifics about Birthright ;) ) I'm thinking about having the Cerilian Orcs "bred out" so that only the Orogs remain, but on other continents/large islands, there might be true Orcs - as someone pointed out on the board, that would be a bit of a surprise, since "There are no Orcs in Cerilia" tends to get translated to "There are no Orcs in Birthright".... :P

[Keovar]

In old AD&D, the Orogs started as an Orc/Ogre hybrid... the name Or&copy;Og(re) is actually pretty straightforward. I don't think that that's how they are intended to be in Birthright, however. I think that the Orogs of BR are simply a replacement of orcs - bigger, tougher, but also alot more darkness/underground dependent. This naturally puts them at odds with dwarves, and creates the major plot-hook of the Dwarven kingdoms slowly being lost, forcing the dwarves to make alliances with outsiders if they want to survive.

IMC, we use the Orcish god Ilneval as the basis for Torazan. If you look at his entry in the 2e book Monster Mythology, it even says Ilneval is the patron of Orogs, and his personality and favored equipment compares well to that of a BR Orog. Even though the BR boxed set refers to Torazan possibly being a demon, we decided that the common belief was wrong in this instance, and that Torazan is truly a god, though he acts quite fiendish and limits his attention to Orogs in the same way that Moradin allows only dwarf worshippers.

[Doyle]

> Keovar wrote:
> In old AD&D, the Orogs started as an Orc/Ogre hybrid the name Or&copy;Og(re)
is actually pretty straightforward. I don`t think that that`s how they are
intended to be in Birthright, however. I think that the Orogs of BR are
simply a replacement of orcs - bigger, tougher, but also alot more
darkness/underground dependent. <snip>

You forgot smarter - orcs were low - human average, ogres were just low,
while the intelegence for orogs is higher than human average. that more
than just the extra grun it what makes them a more formidable oponent.

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[irdeggman]

Weren't Cerilian Orogs listed in one of the Monstrous Compendiums (somewhere around number 4 if I recall)? The entry was essentially the same as the card from the BR boxed set.

[Lysander]

Originally posted by Keovar


In old AD&D, the Orogs started as an Orc/Ogre hybrid... the name Or&copy;Og(re) is actually pretty straightforward. I don't think that that's how they are intended to be in Birthright, however. I think that the Orogs of BR are simply a replacement of orcs - bigger, tougher, but also alot more darkness/underground dependent. This naturally puts them at odds with dwarves, and creates the major plot-hook of the Dwarven kingdoms slowly being lost, forcing the dwarves to make alliances with outsiders if they want to survive.

IMC, we use the Orcish god Ilneval as the basis for Torazan. If you look at his entry in the 2e book Monster Mythology, it even says Ilneval is the patron of Orogs, and his personality and favored equipment compares well to that of a BR Orog. Even though the BR boxed set refers to Torazan possibly being a demon, we decided that the common belief was wrong in this instance, and that Torazan is truly a god, though he acts quite fiendish and limits his attention to Orogs in the same way that Moradin allows only dwarf worshippers.


Whether they're a product of Orogish eugenics or simply breeding out (e.g. Dwarves tend to kill the weakest/slowest/dimmest of the pack, resulting in only the strongest being available to produce "new" orogs) would have a similar effect. I hadn't thought about the specifics of the Orog patron deity, although there's much in the Monster Mythology that probably could be brought into Birthright (if I'd manage to unpack my D&D stuff and read it ;)... but that's probably a thought for another thread

[Green Knight]

Hi

In the real world the young and the fit fight, get crippled, die, or
become mentally scarred. The old, the infirm and the cowards stay at
home and breed. The survival of the fittest doesn`t seem to apply to war
at all ;-)

Bjorn


*SNIP*
Whether they`re a product of Orogish eugenics or simply breeding out
(e.g. Dwarves tend to kill the weakest/slowest/dimmest of the pack,
resulting in only the strongest being available to produce "new"
orogs) would have a similar effect. I hadn`t thought about the
specifics of the Orog patron deity, although there`s much in the
Monster Mythology that probably could be brought into Birthright (if
I`d manage to unpack my D&D stuff and read it ;)... but that`s
probably a thought for another thread
*SNIP*

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[Lysander]

Originally posted by The Green Knight


Hi

In the real world the young and the fit fight, get crippled, die, or
become mentally scarred. The old, the infirm and the cowards stay at
home and breed. The survival of the fittest doesn`t seem to apply to war
at all ;-)

Bjorn





True - I was more thinking along the lines of a wolf pack hunting caribou, rather than the analogy of the "smart" cowards staying home while the "dumb" brave ones go off to fight. Either way works, more or less ([_]