Duchies and Dukedoms

[kgauck]

> Go on, you know you want to :)

Only, because you asked.

A duchy is a territory which is ruled by a duke or some greater figure.
Avanil may well be a duchy ruled by a prince. Diemed is a duchy whose rule
is divided between four different realms. Osoerde is a duchy. Ghieste and
Dhalaene are duchies with no dukes, and possibly no real meaning anymore,
depending on how much of their ancient territory is united still.

A dukedom is the title itself. I can be a duke without a duchy. Maybe
Queen Lillian Swordwraith`s brother is called His Grace Richard, Duke of
Aerenwe. In such a case, Richard Swordwraith would have a dukedom, but no
duchy. If Heirl Diem is duke of Diemed, he retains his dukedom, but only a
part of his duchy.

Almost certainly Avanil is a duchy and not a principality, but Avan has a
courtesy title. One consequence of this is that all of his officials would
be ducal. That is they would be Chancellor of the Duchy of Avanil, advisor
to the Prince.

Occasionally it becomes politically neccesary for a ruler to simply not
reach for a title to which he would otherwise seem entitled by conquest or
inheritance. The Baron of Ghoere may have avoided claiming the title of
Duke, because he had made enemies enough, and was more interested in holding
on to his power, rather than taking risks to improve his prestige. If this
is the case, there may well be someone out there still calling themself Duke
of Ghieste and and someone calling themself Duke of Dhalaene. I`d imagine
they`re in exile in Mhoried and Avanil, but YMMV.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

> Go on, you know you want to :)

Only, because you asked.

A duchy is a territory which is ruled by a duke or some greater figure.
Avanil may well be a duchy ruled by a prince. Diemed is a duchy whose rule
is divided between four different realms. Osoerde is a duchy. Ghieste and
Dhalaene are duchies with no dukes, and possibly no real meaning anymore,
depending on how much of their ancient territory is united still.

A dukedom is the title itself. I can be a duke without a duchy. Maybe
Queen Lillian Swordwraith`s brother is called His Grace Richard, Duke of
Aerenwe. In such a case, Richard Swordwraith would have a dukedom, but no
duchy. If Heirl Diem is duke of Diemed, he retains his dukedom, but only a
part of his duchy.

Almost certainly Avanil is a duchy and not a principality, but Avan has a
courtesy title. One consequence of this is that all of his officials would
be ducal. That is they would be Chancellor of the Duchy of Avanil, advisor
to the Prince.

Occasionally it becomes politically neccesary for a ruler to simply not
reach for a title to which he would otherwise seem entitled by conquest or
inheritance. The Baron of Ghoere may have avoided claiming the title of
Duke, because he had made enemies enough, and was more interested in holding
on to his power, rather than taking risks to improve his prestige. If this
is the case, there may well be someone out there still calling themself Duke
of Ghieste and and someone calling themself Duke of Dhalaene. I`d imagine
they`re in exile in Mhoried and Avanil, but YMMV.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Magian]

Hi,

>From: Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>
>Almost certainly Avanil is a duchy and not a principality, but Avan has a
>courtesy title.

I am of the school of thought that differs from this point. I see Avanil as
a principality. Since there is a vacancy of royalty as regent over this
imperial province the house of Avan has taken the Furst position. Not a
royal title but a princely title. Thus I see the Prince of Avan as a Furst
in the German sense of the title.

To go on another note I see the Archduke of Boeruine as the Hapsburg style
in Austria. This means a indirect line to the imperial throne by virtue of
title alone. This argument is used for that of the Prince title of Avan if
you view the title as the English do.

__________________________________________________ _______________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[geeman]

At 03:51 PM 9/18/2002 -0600, The Magian wrote:

>>Almost certainly Avanil is a duchy and not a principality, but Avan has a
>>courtesy title.
>
>I am of the school of thought that differs from this point. I see Avanil
>as a principality. Since there is a vacancy of royalty as regent over
>this imperial province the house of Avan has taken the Furst position.

I prefer that view as well--that the provinces of Avanil were under the
personal control of the emperor, but upon his death an Avan ancestor
stepped in and took over the principality. Even if the Imperial City were
a level 10 "province" 500 years before the period when the BR setting is
published, it`s hard for me to picture the emperor just ruling that one
province. If he ruled the provinces of Avanil then his personal domain is
much more significant. It also helps explain the title/domain of the
Chamberlain in that he "rules" the IC because that "province" represents
the royal seat, not the royal demesne, and his authority only extends as
far as the actual "house" as it were.

Gary

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "The Magian" <birthrightpbem@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:51 PM


> I see Avanil as a principality. Since there is a vacancy of royalty as
> regent over this imperial province the house of Avan has taken the
> Furst position. Not a royal title but a princely title. Thus I see the
> Prince of Avan as a Furst in the German sense of the title.

That`s certainly a possibility, but then Avanil is still a duchy, and Anuire
province is a principality. Or do you mean something else? As a Furst, or
prince, we`d expect to see a small territory otherwise the size of a county,
a BR sized province.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 5:13 PM

> I prefer that view as well--that the provinces of Avanil were
> under the personal control of the emperor [...] it`s hard for me
> to picture the emperor just ruling that one province.

I don`t neccesarily think the Emperor had an Isle de France type royal
demesne, but rather an English style, "I own about a third of the provinces
in Anuire, and about 2/3`s of the law holdings". That would be pretty
significant too.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Trithemius]

Kenneth:
> I don`t neccesarily think the Emperor had an Isle de France
> type royal demesne, but rather an English style, "I own about
> a third of the provinces in Anuire, and about 2/3`s of the
> law holdings". That would be pretty significant too.

In my approach, which uses Law holdings as the basis for taxation not
simple province ownership, I would say that perhaps the Emperor owns all
the PROVINCES of the Empire (or at least the Twelve) and allows the
lesser nobles to manage them through control of the Law Holdings.

Alternatively perhaps the Emperor exercised control through minor nobles
who owed loyalty directly to him, and not to any other lords. This would
provide the Emperor with law holdings all over the place.

Alternatively alternatively perhaps the Emperor directly drew on the
resources of the colonies and territopries outside of the region of
Anuire for his income. When these started to collapse and rebel after
the death of Michael Roel the Imperial Regents lost much of their income
and became less able to keep the bickering Archdukes in check.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Trithemius]

Magian:
> I am of the school of thought that differs from this point.
> I see Avanil as a principality. Since there is a vacancy of
> royalty as regent over this imperial province the house of
> Avan has taken the Furst position. Not a royal title but a
> princely title. Thus I see the Prince of Avan as a Furst in
> the German sense of the title.

I see the Empire at its height as a bit more centralised than the later
Holy Roman Empire. I`m not sure that the concept of prince in Anuire is
the same as that in Germany. Although it might be interesting to assume
that nobilty arises from being the head of a blooded household, I am not
sure if RoE does this. An interesting idea anyway.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Trithemius]

Kenneth:
> Only, because you asked.

I did indeed.

<snip!>

Thank you Kenneth. I hope that it was informative to people on the list.
This is the general way I see things as well. I am not sure (for my
campaign) if Darien Avan has taken "prince" because he is entitled to it
or because it is a deliberate attempt on his part to associate himself
as "the heir of the Empire".

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-09-19 at 11:22, John Machin wrote:

Kenneth:
> Only, because you asked.

I did indeed.

<snip!>

Thank you Kenneth. I hope that it was informative to people on the list.
This is the general way I see things as well. I am not sure (for my
campaign) if Darien Avan has taken "prince" because he is entitled to it
or because it is a deliberate attempt on his part to associate himself
as "the heir of the Empire".

Or both. I prefer to accept that he is entitled to it but that it does
not directly support a claim to the Empire. The office of Emperor seems
to be apart from (that is a separate office) to the 12 duchies. As such
it is almost certain that no one of the 12 Dukes/Duchesses could claim
the Empire without the unanimous support of the remaining 11. As well,
the support of the Chamberlain seems necessary.

The latter day titles "Prince of Avanil", "Queen of Aerenwe" do not
imply anything with respect to the past. Quite the opposite in fact,
they show a clean break with the duchy system, indicating that both
Aerenwe and Avanil see themselves as completely independent and beholden
to no higher authority. This does not mean that other rulers do not
similarly see their realms - just that they have not adopted a title to
signify so (although this may even be the case with Boeruine).

The Brosenge/Taeghas debate is quite easily explained. It is logical
that the territories now claimed by Brosengae were once part of Taeghas
- from both a geographical examination plus the festering claim of
Brosengae to the Taeghan lands. Both however have a pseudo-vassal status
with Avanil, a state that would only have come about through military
intervention in both realms. This may not have happened at the same time
however.

My interpretation is that the duchy of Taeghas underwent a civil war,
perhaps even with the intervention of both Boeruine and Avanil - during
the wars of succession. This split the country with the former
duke/duchess fleeing to the south (Brosengae). One would assume that the
duke/duchess of the time was supported by Avanil, while the northern
half was usurped by firces loyal to, or backed by, Boeruine. At some
later time (sufficient that the establishment of two separate states was
an established fact), Avanil again intervenes in what is now Taeghas but
successfully this time.

Cariele was from several sources, once much larger, including parts of
the five peaks and Thurazor, and possibly parts of Dhoesone - which was
once largely a Rjurik realm (the name of which escapes me for the
moment).


--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>>Go on, you know you want to :)
>>
>Only, because you asked.
>A duchy is a territory which is ruled by a duke or some greater figure.
>Avanil may well be a duchy ruled by a prince. Diemed is a duchy whose rule
>is divided between four different realms.
>
6 realms
Diemed, Medoere, Illien, Roesone in part, Endier and the Spiderfell :-)
(the old Duchy of Diemed officially was granted by Roele the lands
including the Spiderfell, that was the reason that Richard Endier, when
he claimed part of the western Spiderfell, asked Diemed´s regent for
permission in Spider´s Test)
bye
Michael

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Magian]

Actually I meant what you term to be the duchy of Avanil from Daulton,
Anuire, Nentril and so on (all these provinces) as an imperial
province/principality. This is of course my interpretation and use of
language. Yes I know historically in the novel Iron Throne the Duke of
Avanil supported Michael and some explaining is in order to justify this
premise. That is of course if I use the novel as a historic source. For
simplicity let`s say I don`t. ;)


>From: Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>
>That`s certainly a possibility, but then Avanil is still a duchy, and
>Anuire
>province is a principality. Or do you mean something else? As a Furst, or
>prince, we`d expect to see a small territory otherwise the size of a
>county,
>a BR sized province.
>


__________________________________________________ _______________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Raesene Andu]

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

My interpretation is that the duchy of Taeghas underwent a civil war,
perhaps even with the intervention of both Boeruine and Avanil - during
the wars of succession. This split the country with the former
duke/duchess fleeing to the south (Brosengae). One would assume that the
duke/duchess of the time was supported by Avanil, while the northern
half was usurped by firces loyal to, or backed by, Boeruine. At some
later time (sufficient that the establishment of two separate states was
an established fact), Avanil again intervenes in what is now Taeghas but
successfully this time.



Hey, I just posted a virtually identical argument about this topic in another thread. Gave me a bit of a start to read what is almost identical to my own words.

Perhaps this is an idea that could be explored further sometime, writing up a history of Brosengae/Taeghas.

[Magian]

>From: John Machin <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>

>I see the Empire at its height as a bit more centralised than the later
>Holy Roman Empire. I`m not sure that the concept of prince in Anuire is
>the same as that in Germany. Although it might be interesting to assume
>that nobilty arises from being the head of a blooded household, I am not
>sure if RoE does this. An interesting idea anyway.
>

Yes the centralized empire is a good way to go for simplicity sake. If you
leave your rank system aligned with RoE it does bring up some questions and
I am simply in my own little world trying to make definitions to satisfy my
little imbalances.

My previous post goes into the bit about the royal prince and princely
prince (furst) as one being of royal blood and the other not rather assuming
a principality. Even a count can be princely, I would use Muden as a
parallel example though not exact.

__________________________________________________ _______________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.