Formation in Battle.

[geeman]

One of the big factors in large scale combat is the use of formations by
troops. Various formations are used to maximize the efficiency of the
troops` position and maneuverability on the battlefield, and troops in a
particular formation are more able to deal damage to their opponents than
others.

Right now I`m thinking that if I want to incorporate formations into a
system of large scale combat for BR it could be done by assigning different
values to the various stats for the troop type. Troops in "line abreast"
formation, for instance, could get a +1 to offensive, but a -1 to defensive
values. Troops in a "hedgehog" formation could get the opposite. Things
like that.

Anyone have thoughts on using formations in BR? Are there any wargames
that used them in a way you liked?

Gary

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[marcum uth mather]

I like the idea. there needs to be a way to realy use stradagy in BR.

[geeman]

At 07:23 PM 9/16/2002 +0200, marcum uth mather wrote:

> I like the idea. there needs to be a way to realy use stradagy in BR.

Yeah, more strategy in the battle rules is part of the goal. The problem,
of course, would be that assigning a formation to every company of soldiers
on a battlefield would slow things down quite a bit. Such a system would
probably need to be tailored for a particular system of battle rules too,
but assuming we were using a system like the warcards of BR what kinds of
formations might be employed and what might be the effects of those formations?

Gary

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[kgauck]

Since formations are part of the scissors, rock, paper nature of combat,
formations are going to have specific bonus against certain kinds of troops,
and penalties against other troops.

Basically you create a grid with all the troop types on both axis. You
generally leave most spaces as no modifiers, and give bonuses and penalties
to a few troop types for each troop.

Further, some troops have special features, like high rates of speed,
attacking from range, and so forth, that may not be worked into the attack
and defense numbers.

Of course these are abstracting features that are handled quite differently
in regular man to man combat. The advantage of "line abreast" is that
because no one is standing behind anyone else, everyone gets to attack. On
the other hand, the formation is very vulnerable to being disrupted. Deep
formations "waste" alot of manpower on people unable to attack, but they are
also very hard to disrupt.

Units fighting in formation need the Close-Order Fighting feat (from
Soveriegn Stone) or the weaker Phalanx feat from AEG`s War or Mercenaries.
When two characters have Close-Order fighting, the one on the left gains the
benifits of one quarter cover (+2 AC, +1 Reflex save). Breaking a formation
not only reduces the benefits of Close-Order Fighting by creating a much
larger number of characters with no one to his right giving him protection,
but it increases the opportunities for flank attacks.

Because proper formations require that everyone (at least in the first rank
or two) have a special feat to take advantage of the formation, proper
formations and close order fighting is kind of an elite or otherwise special
phenomena.

IMC, the Anuirean elite infantry and Brecht pikemen generally try to train
these feats (when experience makes aquiring a feat allowable). I have been
working on a list of feats commonly held by certain formations.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

We`re actually talking about tactics. Strategy is the skill of using
battles to achieve a political or military objective.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Trithemius]

Marcum:
> I like the idea. there needs to be a way to realy use stradagy in BR.

That`d be tactics, not really strategy.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

DBM assumes that good (or bad) use of formation is calculated into an
elements quality.

There is some additional advantages about deploying pikes, spears, and
warbands in depth but this is largely covered by Kenneth when he talks
about the trade off between length of lines and coherency of lines.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Kenneth:
> We`re actually talking about tactics. Strategy is the skill
> of using battles to achieve a political or military objective.

Oops. Sorry for the clone-post, Kenneth was obviously telepathically
reading my mind from the future again.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Kenneth:
> Since formations are part of the scissors, rock, paper nature
> of combat, formations are going to have specific bonus
> against certain kinds of troops, and penalties against other troops.

I think that fundamental changes in formation probably represent
"Advances" (as per BoR). Developments in military science are hard to
bring about and I have some problems with medieval forces using
sophisticated `modern` formations. That is the province of those crazy
genius commanders with Battlewise in my opinion. Most commanders would
be limited to the regular old formations.

> Units fighting in formation need the Close-Order Fighting
> feat (from Soveriegn Stone) or the weaker Phalanx feat from
> AEG`s War or Mercenaries. When two characters have
> Close-Order fighting, the one on the left gains the benifits
> of one quarter cover (+2 AC, +1 Reflex save). Breaking a
> formation not only reduces the benefits of Close-Order
> Fighting by creating a much larger number of characters with
> no one to his right giving him protection, but it increases
> the opportunities for flank attacks.

Or the version in the Forgotten Realms `Lords of Darkness` book.
(Included for completeness only).

> Because proper formations require that everyone (at least in
> the first rank or two) have a special feat to take advantage
> of the formation, proper formations and close order fighting
> is kind of an elite or otherwise special phenomena.

As is, in my opinion, having a repertoire of formations.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Starfox]

Formation changes is a modern concept. Each type of unit has a standard
formation, and only elite units are able to take on more than one formation.
In fact, the very idea of formations (which is suggested by the troop types
of the war cards) is one of the things that makes me think Cerilia is not
high medeival, but more at the late hundred-years-war stage of military
history (15th century).

I see no need for special formation rules. Whetever formation (or lack of
formation) the unit uses is included in it`s attributes, regardless if you
use war cards or some other system.

Formation in European battles was more a matter of holding the line than of
arranging the soldiers in geometric patterns. If you really want formations,
ordered lines and troop types to matter, I suggest you use the DBA/DBM
system - which has been promoted before on this list by others.

/Carl


Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote at 02-09-16 23.31:

> The problem, of course, would be that assigning a formation to every company
> of soldiers on a battlefield would slow things down quite a bit. Such a
> system would probably need to be tailored for a particular system of battle
> rules too, but assuming we were using a system like the warcards of BR what
> kinds of formations might be employed and what might be the effects of those
> formations?
>

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[Trithemius]

Carl:
> Formation in European battles was more a matter of holding
> the line than of arranging the soldiers in geometric
> patterns. If you really want formations, ordered lines and
> troop types to matter, I suggest you use the DBA/DBM system -
> which has been promoted before on this list by others.

Well said Carl.

P.S. w00t for DBM/DBA/HoTT

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Cramér" <carl.cramer@HOME.SE>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 3:00 AM


> In fact, the very idea of formations (which is suggested by the troop
types
> of the war cards) is one of the things that makes me think Cerilia is not
> high medeival, but more at the late hundred-years-war stage of military
> history (15th century).

I think some of the "formations" we`re really talking about in Cerilia are
really just groups of similar weapon users. These are the pikemen, we keep
them together. Here are the archers, we keep them in a group. And so forth.
Formation in the sense that can only be obtained by drill is another matter.

I don`t think Cerilia is high medieval either. I`d say Anuire, Brectur,
and Khinasi are all Renaissance, albeit in different ways. 15th century is
probabaly right on from the way people are dressed in the artwork, their
military organization, their attitudes toward the past, their incipient
exploration of the wider world, their technology, and other descriptive
elements.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Sir Justine]

Orginally posted by Starfox
Formation changes is a modern concept. ... In fact, the very idea of formations (which is suggested by the troop types
of the war cards) is one of the things that makes me think Cerilia is not
high medeival, but more at the late hundred-years-war stage of military
history (15th century).


Are you sure? In the ancient roman empire they used very advanced formations already, and much of that inspired modern tactics.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sir Justine" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 1:27 PM


> Are you sure? In the ancient roman empire they used very advanced
> formations already, and much of that inspired modern tactics.

Its that pesky thousand years plus between the collapse of the Roman army as
a professional institution. The list once had a real advocate of Anuire as
a kind of Roman survival, a Rome which never fell, just decayed into the
various baronies and duchies. In that interpretation, there is no "middle"
period and no neccesity that antique formations were lost.

My own view is that the Imperial formations and professional training are
mostly a thing of the past. Unlike European history, knowledge of how to
train and drill professional formations wasn`t lost, its just prohibitivly
expensive for little realms with 9 provinces. In some cases, perhaps the
named units (Schaefrich Welchen, White Witch`s Guard, Imperial Legion)
explain their improved stats by use of complex formations. They are
permenant and are therefore able to train new recruits into their traditions
of how to march, how to maneuver, and how to fight.

The problem is, in 3e terms, proper formation fighting requires several
feats, probabaly one for each kind of drill the unit knows. Some of these
feats we see in the books. Getting a hundred or two hundred guys to all
stick with the unit long enough to learn the feat, and to still be around
when you want them to use it in battle, requries a standing army of
permenant soldiers. Its a lot easier to persuade guys to serve for a short
period, than it is to get them to make the long term commitment you need to
actually get drilled, professional soldiers.

The more feats is required to impliment a given formations different drills,
the fewer people you`ll get to do it. Realms of a pretty good size seem to
be able to raise one unit of professional soldiers.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Starfox]

Sir Justine <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-09-17 20.27:

> Are you sure? In the ancient roman empire they used very advanced formations
> already, and much of that inspired modern tactics.

Yes, the romans (and many ancient armies) were big on formations. It is one
of the things that was lost - or perhaps you could say rationalized - in the
early middle ages. You see, formation fighting requires either a very static
lineup (like the early greek hoplites) or regular soldiers that train
full-time (like the Romans). And regular soldiers are very, very expensive.
Medieval armies not afford fully professional soldiers except for
exceptional units, like knights and English longbowmen. And these trained
more in individual skill than in formation fighting.

/Carl

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