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geeman
09-10-2002, 08:46 PM
One of the things I`ve never really liked about 3e combat is that it`s very
static. There`s a little bit of movement, but for the most part characters
go toe to toe with opponents, roll attacks and take/deliver damage. There
are, of course, rules to make it more dynamic (trip, bull rush, etc.) but
since they provoke attacks of opportunity, players are reluctant to use
them unless their PCs also take feats or a particular prestige class to
avoid the AoO. The following critical hit/fumble variant is meant to make
combat more dynamic.


Fumble

When you roll a 1 on an attack roll you provoke a fumble threat. You must
make a Reflex save (DC 15) to avoid a fumble. If you do fumble one of your
opponents (determined randomly if you face multiple opponents) gets to roll
on the table below.

NOTE: At present I think I`m going to use this for both melee and missile
combat. The results of the table below are almost all melee options, of
course, so it might be argued that an opponent at a distance would not
provoke a character to drop his/er weapon because of a free disarm attempt
or fall prone because of a free trip attack, but the results here are not
necessarily meant to represent an opponent performing that action. Rather,
it represents a character who fumbled actually losing his grip or stumbling
in the highly abstracted D&D combat. More powerful/skillful opponents do
put people in a position where they are more likely to make mistakes, so
using the opponent`s values for the results of a fumble check will reflect
that. I`m not wild about the DC 15 Reflex save to avoid the fumble. I`d
prefer an opposed check, but I couldn`t come up with what traits that check
would be based on.


Critical Hit Variant

After a critical hit is confirmed roll on the following table to determine
additional effects. Taking an additional critical hit effect is
optional. That is, if you get a critical hit on a target and roll a 6 on
the table below you don`t have to make the free grapple attack if you don`t
want.
d12 Result
1 Free strike at armor or shield (50/50).
2 Free disarm attempt. (If target is unarmed reroll this result.)
3 Free sunder attempt. (If target is unarmed reroll this result.)
4 Free feint.
5 Free bull rush attack.
6 Free grapple check.
7 Free trip attack.
8 Make a DC 15 Will save or be dazed for 1 round.
9 Make a DC 15 Will save or be blinded for 1 round.
10 Make a DC 15 Will save or suffer -2 to Str or Dex (50/50)
for 1 round.
11 Target or fumbler suffers x1 of subdual damage.
12 Roll twice ignoring this result if rolled again.

Of these 8-11 are the ones I`m least enthused about. I`d rather an opposed
roll, but again I couldn`t think of what trait(s) would oppose one another
for the purpose of those effects. #11 is OK, but again there`s no opposed
roll which I`d like for all the effects.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Gary

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Sir Justine
09-11-2002, 04:30 AM
Orginally posted by geeman

One of the things I`ve never really liked about 3e combat is that it`s very
static. There`s a little bit of movement, but for the most part characters
go toe to toe with opponents, roll attacks and take/deliver damage.


I agree. Call me a war gamer if you want :P , but I would like if the combat were more tactical. IMC we use the optional rule of the DMG that when you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll you must make a DC 10 Dex check or fumble. The rule is abstract on what is fumble - it says the standard is to concede an AoO, but it can be other things, like falling prone.
This ruling is nice, but IMO it could depend less on the DM to determine what is the fumble. Like what Gary made, a table...
I would also like to have a critical hit system like that found on the AD&D Combat and Tatics (that one was cool, but maybe too complex). I say that because I like when, for example, Anakin's arm is cut off... it can be fun to have a fighter with a history (this hand I lost when I was battling the Gorgon and the Kraken...). It's hard to have this with the abstract hp system.
Ok, I admit, I'm sadictic with my PCs ;) .

Sir Justine
09-11-2002, 04:34 AM
Orginally posted by geeman
8 Make a DC 15 Will save or be dazed for 1 round.
9 Make a DC 15 Will save or be blinded for 1 round.
10 Make a DC 15 Will save or suffer -2 to Str or Dex (50/50)
for 1 round.


Good effects, but why Will save? Don't you think that Fortitude fits more?

geeman
09-11-2002, 06:27 AM
At 06:34 AM 9/11/2002 +0200, Sir Justine wrote:

>>8 Make a DC 15 Will save or be dazed for 1 round.
>>9 Make a DC 15 Will save or be blinded for 1 round.
>>10 Make a DC 15 Will save or suffer -2 to Str or Dex (50/50) for 1 round.
>
>Good effects, but why Will save? Don`t you think that Fortitude fits more?

I guess there`s an argument for Reflex saves too.

I made it a Will save to reflect a sort of "shake it off" kind of effect
for effect 8 and 9 (dazed and blinded.) Originally, effect 10 was Str, Dex
or Con, so I made that Will so that it couldn`t double up on the ability
score. That is, I wanted to avoid a Fortitude save needed to prevent a Con
loss, and I just kept it a Will save even though I switched the ability
score lost to Str or Dex alone.

Gary

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Starfox
09-11-2002, 07:33 AM
Sir Justine <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-09-11 06.30:

> Orginally posted by geeman
>
> One of the things I`ve never really liked about 3e combat is that it`s very
> static. There`s a little bit of movement, but for the most part characters
> go toe to toe with opponents, roll attacks and take/deliver damage.
>

The quality of 3E cobat is that it IS tactical. This is one of the strong
points of the game.

You can choose between stepping and moving - which effectively gives more
options to unengaged "reserves". A cornered character cannot be otflanked -
but neither can he flee or maneouver. With a few rogues involved, the
question of flanking becomes paramount.

Similarily, which mounted lances about, lines become very valuable; it is
the only way to prevent those Ride-By attacks.

And reach adds a lot of tactical issues, as well.

Of course, this does not mean that there could not be more such tactical
rules - but beware overcomlexivity.

/Carl

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Peter Lubke
09-11-2002, 08:38 AM
On Wed, 2002-09-11 at 06:27, Gary wrote:

One of the things I`ve never really liked about 3e combat is that it`s very
static. There`s a little bit of movement, but for the most part characters
go toe to toe with opponents, roll attacks and take/deliver damage. There
are, of course, rules to make it more dynamic (trip, bull rush, etc.) but
since they provoke attacks of opportunity, players are reluctant to use
them unless their PCs also take feats or a particular prestige class to
avoid the AoO. The following critical hit/fumble variant is meant to make
combat more dynamic.

One of the things I`ve never really liked about 2e combat is that they
made the incredibly stupid mistake of attempting to make it simulate
real combat (against the strongest advice from EGG). One of the basic
tenets of AD&D was that the combat system had nothing whatsoever to do
with simulating combat. A one minute round was abstracted into a single
die roll and that was that - all the feints, multiple attacks, dodges,
maneuvers, swishing and swooping, movement etc - all abstracted into a
single simple roll, no need for initiative, weapon speed, hit locations,
critical hits, and all the other detail that can be added infinitum when
you try and simulate something. Perfect!



Fumble

When you roll a 1 on an attack roll you provoke a fumble threat. You must
make a Reflex save (DC 15) to avoid a fumble. If you do fumble one of your
opponents (determined randomly if you face multiple opponents) gets to roll
on the table below.

NOTE: At present I think I`m going to use this for both melee and missile
combat. The results of the table below are almost all melee options, of
course, so it might be argued that an opponent at a distance would not
provoke a character to drop his/er weapon because of a free disarm attempt
or fall prone because of a free trip attack, but the results here are not
necessarily meant to represent an opponent performing that action. Rather,
it represents a character who fumbled actually losing his grip or stumbling
in the highly abstracted D&D combat. More powerful/skillful opponents do
put people in a position where they are more likely to make mistakes, so
using the opponent`s values for the results of a fumble check will reflect
that. I`m not wild about the DC 15 Reflex save to avoid the fumble. I`d
prefer an opposed check, but I couldn`t come up with what traits that check
would be based on.


Critical Hit Variant

After a critical hit is confirmed roll on the following table to determine
additional effects. Taking an additional critical hit effect is
optional. That is, if you get a critical hit on a target and roll a 6 on
the table below you don`t have to make the free grapple attack if you don`t
want.
d12 Result
1 Free strike at armor or shield (50/50).
2 Free disarm attempt. (If target is unarmed reroll this result.)
3 Free sunder attempt. (If target is unarmed reroll this result.)
4 Free feint.
5 Free bull rush attack.
6 Free grapple check.
7 Free trip attack.
8 Make a DC 15 Will save or be dazed for 1 round.
9 Make a DC 15 Will save or be blinded for 1 round.
10 Make a DC 15 Will save or suffer -2 to Str or Dex (50/50)
for 1 round.
11 Target or fumbler suffers x1 of subdual damage.
12 Roll twice ignoring this result if rolled again.

Of these 8-11 are the ones I`m least enthused about. I`d rather an opposed
roll, but again I couldn`t think of what trait(s) would oppose one another
for the purpose of those effects. #11 is OK, but again there`s no opposed
roll which I`d like for all the effects.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Gary

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Azrai
09-11-2002, 10:47 AM
If you search for a critical-hit rule, look at the 2. Edition source book "Combat and tactics". However, the fumble and critical hit rule you invented do not fit to the 3. Edition rules.

for example the rules in the epic level handbook make the die rolls open-ended: if you throw a 20, you can make an additional throw and add them together.

i have seen several critical hit rules in D&D, and it nether worked well compared to "Rolemaster" o.a.

Azrai
09-11-2002, 10:51 AM
Further how do you handle the critical thread range of weapons with this rule?

geeman
09-11-2002, 02:01 PM
At 12:51 PM 9/11/2002 +0200, Azrai wrote:

> Further how do you handle the critical thread range of weapons with this
> rule?

When I scribbled that table up I imagined that it would be used as an
addition to the standard critical hit rules. That is, you still need to
confirm a critical threat, the critical hit still does a multiplier of
damage according to the weapon type, then you roll on that table. The idea
being that all three steps require a die roll and the results of third step
on that table is more often than not an opposed check rather than the
automatic effect of most critical hit tables I`ve seen. That`s why I
wanted some sort of opposed check rather than a DC for the fumble section,
and why I wanted all the options on that table to be opposed as
well. Thematically opposed checks fit in with the overall concept that
these are "forced" effects and if all the effects have a similar game
mechanic then the option has some consistency, which is why I`m not
satisfied with the options that don`t have an opposed check in them.

Gary

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Azrai
09-11-2002, 02:57 PM
I see.

concerning the opposed checks there were some good rules for criticals in the "Dark Sun Gladiator Handbook". I have to read it up somehow.

Sir Justine
09-12-2002, 12:22 AM
The thing I less like in the D&D hp system is that characters don't get any weaker as they get wounded. A fighter with 100 hp fights unhurt as well as with 1 hp left.
IMC we made a house rule to fix this: when the character reaches 50% of his total hp he gets fatigated (-2 Str and Dex; can't run or charge), and when he gets to 25% of his total hp he gets exausted (-6 Str and Dex; can't run or charge; moves at half his normal speed). So, a character with 18 hp gets fatigated with 9 hp left and exausted with 4.
A like this because it's simple to use, but a lot more realistic than the base D&D rules.

KnightEagle
09-12-2002, 01:53 AM
Hello, I am new to the board and I hope you don't mind a newbie throwing in his say.
Maybe I just have really good PCs but the battles in my campaign are never static. There is a lot of moving around and repositioning of characters to achieve strategic advantages during fights. For this reason, I guess I don't see the need for a critical hits or fumble chart.
Mind you, I think that the fumble chart is a good idea. I have always liked the chance for a character to fumble. I might put the fumble in a manner similar to the way that crits are handled. If you roll a 1, roll again. If you miss the monsters AC with your second roll then it is a fumble.
What I have to say about Crit charts and the major things like that is what 3rd edition book says about them. They are more likely to hurt the characters rather than help them. The characters are often going to be going against forces larger in number then they are which means their enemies have greater chances of rolling a critical hit and rolling them more often then the PCs. In this manner I think that the critical chart might become more redundant for the PCs who are constantly having to make some grapple or get some limb cut off. Especially for instances of limbs getting cut off because it can so debilitate to a character. PCs probably won't be happy with constantly having to spend all of the gold they earn on regeneration spells. Despite being a DM, I still have to bear in mind that characters are playing the game for their own enjoyment.
Of course, this is all just personally preference from me, so take it with a grain of salt. I am just trying to discuss an opposite view.
Take Care,

James

geeman
09-12-2002, 07:05 AM
At 03:53 AM 9/12/2002 +0200, KnightEagle wrote:

>Maybe I just have really good PCs but the battles in my campaign are never
>static. There is a lot of moving around and repositioning of characters
>to achieve strategic advantages during fights. For this reason, I guess I
>don`t see the need for a critical hits or fumble chart.

"Static" probably wasn`t the right word for me to use. At least, I don`t
mean "static" in the sense that 3e combat has no movement, or that there`s
no tactical positioning. What I mean is that for the most part combat is
"static" in the sense that things like dropping a weapon, falling down,
forced movement (bull rush)--things that happen when one is actually
fighting--don`t occur unless the characters involved take on specific
prestige classes or feats that eliminate the attacks of opportunity
provoked by performing those actions.

>Mind you, I think that the fumble chart is a good idea. I have always
>liked the chance for a character to fumble. I might put the fumble in a
>manner similar to the way that crits are handled. If you roll a 1, roll
>again. If you miss the monsters AC with your second roll then it is a fumble.

AC is probably better for a "fumble threat" than the DC 15 I had in there,
but I still would prefer some sort of opposed roll.... Using AC is a
little dicey to me because it makes one more likely to fumble against
better armor rather than better opponents.

>What I have to say about Crit charts and the major things like that is
>what 3rd edition book says about them. They are more likely to hurt the
>characters rather than help them. The characters are often going to be
>going against forces larger in number then they are which means their
>enemies have greater chances of rolling a critical hit and rolling them
>more often then the PCs.

What the DMG says on the subject is that critical hits will be delivered to
PCs than to particular NPCs because PC are engaged in most every combat,
and a given NPC may be in only one. Personally, I`m not so sure I buy that
logic, but even assuming it`s correct the concern isn`t such a problem
using this particular table because the results aren`t particularly more
deadly than standard critical hits. Arguably, the most drastic result
would be to daze the target for 1 round. Essentially, most of the other
effects force a move equivalent action on the target critically hit to pick
up the dropped weapon, stand up, etc. Dealing with a grapple can be a
pain, but again not nearly as drastic as losing a limb, being permanently
blinded or the results of most other critical hit tables.

>In this manner I think that the critical chart might become more redundant
>for the PCs who are constantly having to make some grapple or get some
>limb cut off. Especially for instances of limbs getting cut off because it
>can so debilitate to a character. PCs probably won`t be happy with
>constantly having to spend all of the gold they earn on regeneration
>spells. Despite being a DM, I still have to bear in mind that characters
>are playing the game for their own enjoyment.

None of the effects on the critical/fumble table I proposed would cause
permanent damage, so I don`t think that`ll be a problem.

Gary

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Peter Lubke
09-12-2002, 07:05 AM
On Thu, 2002-09-12 at 10:22, Sir Justine wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=932

Sir Justine wrote:
The thing I less like in the D&D hp system is that characters don`t get any weaker as they get wounded. A fighter with 100 hp fights unhurt as well as with 1 hp left.
IMC we made a house rule to fix this: when the character reaches 50% of his total hp he gets fatigated (-2 Str and Dex; can`t run or charge), and when he gets to 25% of his total hp he gets exausted (-6 Str and Dex; can`t run or charge; moves at half his normal speed). So, a character with 18 hp gets fatigated with 9 hp left and exausted with 4.
A like this because it`s simple to use, but a lot more realistic than the base D&D rules.

How is it more realistic? According to the original rules for hit points
the loss of 50% (or more) of your hit point total does not indicate any
wounds at all (beyond simple scratches treatable with band-aids). Why
would that fatigue you? A characters hit points represent their luck and
skill at avoiding damage, not their ability to absorb damage. (The DMG
states that such a notion would be ludicrous in the extreme)


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Peter Lubke
09-12-2002, 07:05 AM
On Thu, 2002-09-12 at 13:27, Gary wrote:

At 03:53 AM 9/12/2002 +0200, KnightEagle wrote:

>Maybe I just have really good PCs but the battles in my campaign are never
>static. There is a lot of moving around and repositioning of characters
>to achieve strategic advantages during fights. For this reason, I guess I
>don`t see the need for a critical hits or fumble chart.

"Static" probably wasn`t the right word for me to use. At least, I don`t
mean "static" in the sense that 3e combat has no movement, or that there`s
no tactical positioning. What I mean is that for the most part combat is
"static" in the sense that things like dropping a weapon, falling down,
forced movement (bull rush)--things that happen when one is actually
fighting--don`t occur unless the characters involved take on specific
prestige classes or feats that eliminate the attacks of opportunity
provoked by performing those actions.

Huh - don`t happen? - how do you get there? because there are no tables?
Sack your DM! (or explain nicely to him that you want more description
in the combat results beyond - you hit - he missed). 3e sure is
different from the original game.

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kgauck
09-12-2002, 07:05 AM
The combination of looking at medieval swordfighting
manuals and watching movie fighting and I think that
some better system of working trips, unarmed blows, and
disarm attempts into combat.

Fumbles could be a way to add some of this. Perhaps
rolling less than a 5 on the d20 in attack, even when it
hits, provokes a free trip, disarm, unarmed, or shield
attack. Personally, I`d like to see more of it.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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geeman
09-12-2002, 07:05 AM
At 01:50 PM 9/12/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Huh - don`t happen? - how do you get there? because there are no
>tables? Sack your DM! (or explain nicely to him that you want more
>description in the combat results beyond - you hit - he missed). 3e sure
>is different from the original game.

What 2e combat mechanics are you talking about here, Peter?

Gary

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Sir Justine
09-12-2002, 07:17 AM
Orginally posted by Peter Lubke
How is it more realistic? According to the original rules for hit points
the loss of 50% (or more) of your hit point total does not indicate any
wounds at all (beyond simple scratches treatable with band-aids). Why
would that fatigue you? A characters hit points represent their luck and
skill at avoiding damage, not their ability to absorb damage. (The DMG
states that such a notion would be ludicrous in the extreme)


Sure, I know that when I hit you with a dagger, it doesn't means that the dagger has perfured your chest and ripped your lung, or whatever ;) ! What I'm saying is that the D&D hp system is TOO abstract. So, a character with 1 hp left is as well as one with full hp? And why the one with 1 hp left will fall unconscios if he then falls from 10 ft.? Or a child hit him with a stone? (I'm no hero, but I can manage to fall from 10 ft. high and remain conscious :P )
As it says on the DMG, a fighter with 100 hp and 10 damage isn't hurt very much, but one with 10 hp and 5 damage is...
And I say more realistic because anyone that fights and is hit, or just barely hit (D&D vision of hp) only gets tired and weaker. In D&D, you can be almost falling unconscious or dead and fightning as well as if you were unhurt and not tired. I really don't agree with this...

Peter Lubke
09-12-2002, 08:12 AM
On Thu, 2002-09-12 at 16:10, Gary wrote:

At 01:50 PM 9/12/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Huh - don`t happen? - how do you get there? because there are no
>tables? Sack your DM! (or explain nicely to him that you want more
>description in the combat results beyond - you hit - he missed). 3e sure
>is different from the original game.

What 2e combat mechanics are you talking about here, Peter?

A combat die roll was to determine the overall result of a one minute
combat round (this is an original concept that got mistranslated and
f**ked up in 2e - leading to so many people being totally confused about
D&D combat). This one minute combat round consisted of multiple attacks
feints movement, weapon changes etc. Only the result is determined by
rule (or by roll). There`s no weapon speed, no "who strikes first" --
because such a concept is absurd in this situation. Instead you get a
far far richer combat system capable of a full and complete range of
results - but requiring some imaginative input from players and DM.

There were a large number of strange things in (original) D&D combat
that made life interesting for someone that wasn`t completely familiar
with the rules. For example, if you were -1 to hit someone, that did not
mean that you subtracted 1 from your to hit die roll ! Huh? Yes, well
you have to read the whole set of rules and not jump to conclusions
(even apparently obvious ones). 1e had initiative right?, - again yes,
but not for a melee situation. The concept is in fact both simple and
extremely powerful, allowing combat results not possible in 2e or 3e --
a dying man`s attack for example, or mutual kill strokes. The 2e
`editors` (persons not well versed in playing the game, BTW) perhaps did
not understand themselves, and rather than explain the system in a
better way, thought that they could create a better system (wrong,
failed - thAC0 sucks), (or perhaps they really did think that`s how it
worked - which is even more sad sad sad).

By 2e, (especially the supplements), there was a movement to create a
`simulation` of actual combat. Quite apart from the time mechanics, and
the impossibility of agreeing on an `appropriate` level of detail, this
causes an enormous mismatch with the other systems (spells, missile,
movement, role-playing). Roleplaying suffers because now you have to
have a `proficiency` (2e) or a `feat` or a `skill` in a certain maneuver
(or whatever). Simulations at a mechanical level should be left to
computer games of the first person shooter genre.

From a role-playing perspective, (and this is the basic premise of the
original game) - all that is necessary is for the player to state his
characters intentions using whatever level of detail he feels
comfortable with (although the DM may ask for additional relevant
informations). e.g. "Hathor charges the kobolds swinging his greatsword"
Now the attack roll may be a 1 or a 2, indicating that Hathor not only
missed but missed quite badly, and the DM need only state "you missed" -
but, given the players slightly more embellished "I attack" statement,
it would be better role-playing to respond with "In charging forward,
Hathor failed to notice a rock, tripped and lost his grip on his sword,
while falling to the ground". Such a statement in no way restricts
Hathor from attacking normally the following round (one minute is a
rather long time - certainly long enough for Hathor to have retrieved
his sword either toward the end of the last minute or in the next -
Hathor has already completed the full effects of the "fumble" so to
speak). To say that it didn`t happen because there were no "rules" or
"table" for it ignores the underlying concept and principle tenet of
role-playing in the first place,

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Peter Lubke
09-12-2002, 08:41 AM
On Thu, 2002-09-12 at 17:17, Sir Justine wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=932

Sir Justine wrote:

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke
How is it more realistic? According to the original rules for hit points
the loss of 50% (or more) of your hit point total does not indicate any
wounds at all (beyond simple scratches treatable with band-aids). Why
would that fatigue you? A characters hit points represent their luck and
skill at avoiding damage, not their ability to absorb damage. (The DMG
states that such a notion would be ludicrous in the extreme)


Sure, I know that when I hit you with a dagger, it doesn`t means that the
dagger has perfured your chest and ripped your lung, or whatever;) ! What
I`m saying is that the D&D hp system is TOO abstract.

`perforated` -- but hey, it`s not a spelling bee. Ever wondered why a
dagger does 1-4 and a sword 1-8 ? Why `those` numbers especially? (This
is a bit left of the topic) A character on 1 hit point struck by a
dagger (with no bonuses) will be at 0 to -3, while a sword can do 0 to
-7. Thus a dagger can only lightly wound on its first blow, while a
sword can inflict serious or even critical wounds. But back to the point
...

So, a character with 1 hp left is as well as one with full hp?

Yes, absolutely. Take two characters, who have lost no hit points at
all. One is an ordinary human (say a clerk) with but 2 hit points
anyway. The 2 hit points represent his capacity -- not to take or absorb
damage, but to avoid such damage in a combat (or other potentially
dangerous situation). The second is a fighter lord with an 80 hit point
total. Both are equally healthy - and both will die from a single sword
thrust through the chest. The chance of the second character avoiding
such a thrust is, however, much greater, he has experience on his side,
training, and the indefinable hero quality that alerts such characters
to danger (through long association with it). If however our second
character has been through hell, and lost 78 of his hit points, he will
be more than a bit weary, less alert as a result, and he`s used up a lot
of those hero factors - his chance of avoiding real damage is now down
to being on par with our clerk.

And why the one with 1 hp left will fall unconscious if he then falls from
10 ft.? Or a child hit him with a stone? (I`m no hero, but I can manage to
fall from 10 ft. high and remain conscious :P )

Fall or jump? Close you eyes and have someone push you off a 10 foot
drop. You may not think it quite so easy. If you do walk away without a
scratch, you may think yourself lucky -- so you used up those hero
points, or you used previous experience with falling to avoid damage by
rolling on impact, or collapsing your legs etc. And how many times can
you do it before `an accident` happens and you twist a knee or have the
breath knocked out of you?

As it says on the DMG, a fighter with 100 hp and 10 damage isn`t hurt very
much, but one with 10 hp and 5 damage is...
And I say more realistic because anyone that fights and is hit, or just
barely hit (D&D vision of hp) only gets tired and weaker. In D&D, you can
be almost falling unconscious or dead and fightning as well as if you were
unhurt and not tired.


Do you play sport? Think about how seriously you have to be hurt that it
impedes your ability to play at a level where you cannot compete
effectively. Sure you can get scratched, bruised, thumped quite heavily,
winded briefly or whatever. You can also get too tired to actually play.
You can continue at almost 100% with minor injuries. You don`t have to
break a leg to be put out, it can be a sprained ankle. Each time you
have to run down a far ball, or get up after a hard tackle, doesn`t hurt
in itself -- it`s just one step closer to the time when you can`t run,
or can`t get up. You`ll still run just as fast, or carry as hard next
time -- until you can`t at all.

It`s the same in D&D. On 0 through to -3 hit points, the character is
unable to continue combat (as well as a number of other things), but
he`s not dead - far from it - although if his opponent so wished it
wouldn`t be hard to make him so. He`s just not capable of fighting on.
Of course -4 to -6 is a much scarier situation, as is anything worse.
But a character on 1 hit point (regardless of whether he started with 1
or 100) is fully capable of combat.

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Sir Justine
09-12-2002, 09:31 AM
Orginally posted by Peter Lubke
Yes, absolutely. Take two characters, who have lost no hit points at
all. One is an ordinary human (say a clerk) with but 2 hit points
anyway. The 2 hit points represent his capacity -- not to take or absorb
damage, but to avoid such damage in a combat (or other potentially
dangerous situation). The second is a fighter lord with an 80 hit point
total. Both are equally healthy - and both will die from a single sword
thrust through the chest. The chance of the second character avoiding
such a thrust is, however, much greater, he has experience on his side,
training, and the indefinable hero quality that alerts such characters
to danger (through long association with it). If however our second
character has been through hell, and lost 78 of his hit points, he will
be more than a bit weary, less alert as a result, and he`s used up a lot
of those hero factors - his chance of avoiding real damage is now down
to being on par with our clerk.


IMO, hp represents your ability to turn a potentially fatal blow into a minor wound, by dodgind, parrying, blocking the blow, whatever... A person with 5 hp hit by a sword thrust of 10 damage will be in a bad situation. Your fighter lord with 80 hp hit by the same blow is not. The attack is the same, the result, not. That is because our fighter lord can dodge in the last moment or any other thing.
In that, I guess, we agree right Peter?

But IMO you don't get hurt only when you go to 0 hp or less. One CAN actually be HIT by a sword and stay alive and fightning. Not every strike is fatal - human beings are not made of paper.
In our example of the fighter lord, maybe that blow that would hit the chest of a clerk only hit the arm of the fighter. Or maybe it missed it entirely, since it's the fighter first damage. But if he gets hit again and again? One of those hits will, IMO, be an actual hit. Not a fatal one, but a minor cut or bruise... According to what you said a fighter with a total of 80 hp is totally unhurt even standing with 1 hp left. Then a child throw a stone at him, and he falls unconscious. I don't think a healthy human adult will fall because of a rock. Actually it can, but certainly not always.


Orginally posted by Peter Lubke
Do you play sport? Think about how seriously you have to be hurt that it
impedes your ability to play at a level where you cannot compete
effectively. Sure you can get scratched, bruised, thumped quite heavily,
winded briefly or whatever. You can also get too tired to actually play.
You can continue at almost 100% with minor injuries. You don`t have to
break a leg to be put out, it can be a sprained ankle. Each time you
have to run down a far ball, or get up after a hard tackle, doesn`t hurt
in itself -- it`s just one step closer to the time when you can`t run,
or can`t get up. You`ll still run just as fast, or carry as hard next
time -- until you can`t at all.


What are you asking? EVERY brazilian plays soccer! :P He, just kidding, not all of us play... but a great majority do...
And here I really disagree with you. One of these days I got my leg hurt in a karate training (too much kicking) and after the training I went to play soccer. Man, I played real bad. I could walk, but when I runned, my leg hurt and I had to stop.
This was just an example that happened with me, I can give you a hundred others of a person that is phisically hurt, with his capabilites diminished, but still conscious. In movies it's very common a scene in which two characters are fightning each other and, as they hit each other (light hits, not fatal ones), they get tired and their body just don't work as well as it would if they were unhurt. If I understand it right, according to you, in D&D you are either UNHURT or INCONSCIOUS or DEAD.?



Hmm, Peter, do you know the vitality/wound system from Star Wars d20 and other d20 games?

Peter Lubke
09-12-2002, 10:17 AM
On Thu, 2002-09-12 at 19:31, Sir Justine wrote:



IMO, hp represents your ability to turn a potentially fatal blow into a
minor wound, by dodgind, parrying, blocking the blow, whatever... A person
with 5 hp hit by a sword thrust of 10 damage will be in a bad situation.
Your fighter lord with 80 hp hit by the same blow is not. The attack is
the same, the result, not. That is because our fighter lord can dodge in
the last moment or any other thing.
In that, I guess, we agree right Peter?

In that a minor blow has absolutely no effect on the ability to perform
combat duties (or anything else) then yes perhaps - but they may also
avoid it entirely.


But IMO you don`t get hurt only when you go to 0 hp or less. One CAN
actually be HIT by a sword and stay alive and fightning. Not every strike
is fatal - human beings are not made of paper.

very very few blows are fatal in D&D prior to 2e. The point being that a
blow either was crippling or not, rather than fatal or not. (Crippling
to the ability to perform at 100% capacity)

In our example of the fighter lord, maybe that blow that would hit the
chest of a clerk only hit the arm of the fighter. Or maybe it missed it
entirely, since it`s the fighter first damage. But if he gets hit again
and again? One of those hits will, IMO, be an actual hit. Not a fatal
one, but a minor cut or bruise... According to what you said a fighter
with a total of 80 hp is totally unhurt even standing with 1 hp left.

yes, but the next hit (as you say - sooner or later will be an actual
hit)

Then a child throw a stone at him, and he falls unconscious. I don`t
think a healthy human adult will fall because of a rock. Actually it
can, but certainly not always.

(even if it`s from a rock thrown by a child)



Orginally posted by Peter Lubke
Do you play sport? Think about how seriously you have to be hurt that it
impedes your ability to play at a level where you cannot compete
effectively. Sure you can get scratched, bruised, thumped quite heavily,
winded briefly or whatever. You can also get too tired to actually play.
You can continue at almost 100% with minor injuries. You don`t have to
break a leg to be put out, it can be a sprained ankle. Each time you
have to run down a far ball, or get up after a hard tackle, doesn`t hurt
in itself -- it`s just one step closer to the time when you can`t run,
or can`t get up. You`ll still run just as fast, or carry as hard next
time -- until you can`t at all.


What are you asking? EVERY brazilian plays soccer! :P He, just kidding,
not all of us play... but a great majority do...
And here I really disagree with you. One of these days I got my leg hurt
in a karate training (too much kicking) and after the training I went to
play soccer. Man, I played real bad. I could walk, but when I runned, my
leg hurt and I had to stop.

Had to Stop. <--- That`s my point. You would not have passed a fitness
test to play in the first place (assuming your club doctor does them)
Unless you are really really good and let`s face it - your opponents
were probably Brazilian too ;-) they would have easily got past you.

It`s not that a character wounded to 0 or -1 hit points can`t combat,
they just will be so easily defeated that they are not effective.

This was just an example that happened with me, I can give you a hundred
others... In movies it`s very common a scene in which two characters are
fightning each other and, as they hit each other (light hits, not fatal
ones), they get tired and their body just don`t work as well as it would
if they were unhurt.

Peter, do you know the vitality/wound system from Star Wars d20 and other
d20 games?

Yeah same (basic) system as suggested by E.Gary Gygax for D&D in 1975 -
been using it since 1981. (It`s Kim Mohan and the 2e AD&D editors that
changed AD&D combat) Hit points as vitality and 10 points (as negative
hit points) as wounds.


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Birthright-L
09-13-2002, 09:40 AM
<< Anyone have thoughts on this? >>

No more tables in combat - please!

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Ariadne
09-13-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Sir Justine

IMC we made a house rule to fix this: when the character reaches 50% of his total hp he gets fatigated (-2 Str and Dex; can't run or charge), and when he gets to 25% of his total hp he gets exausted (-6 Str and Dex; can't run or charge; moves at half his normal speed).
Sorry, but this house rule is nonsense! If you have only 10 HP, you're exhausted after you fight only one stupid goblin! Otherwise, if you have 100 HP and fight a dragon with AC 30+ he hit's you twice and you can go home (-6 to Str makes you unable to hit this dragon and -6 to Dex makes you simply his dinner!)


Originally posted by Sir Justine

What I'm saying is that the D&D hp system is TOO abstract.
If you want more realism, play "Rolemaster" instead. To have more tables to role on, one stupid fight takes hours and hours (other roleplaying systems have shown this already)! Those things might make a combat more realistic, but unplayable. Further I don't want a hero without his left hand or right foot!

Birthright-L
09-13-2002, 04:17 PM
On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Ariadne wrote:
>
Originally posted by Sir Justine
> IMC we made a house rule to fix this: when the character reaches 50%
> of his total hp he gets fatigated (-2 Str and Dex; can`t run or
> charge), and when he gets to 25% of his total hp he gets exausted (-6
> Str and Dex; can`t run or charge; moves at half his normal
> speed).
>
> Sorry, but this house rule is nonsense! If you have only 10 HP, you`re
> exhausted after you fight only one stupid goblin!

So you fight a goblin, get stabbed with a spear, and you`re exhausted? No
way, that would never happen. I, personally, have been stabbed with
hundreds of spears, and though I once needed a cool glass of iced tea
afterward, it`s never slowed me down in the least.

> If you want more realism, play "Rolemaster" instead. To have more
> tables to role on, one stupid fight takes hours and hours (other
> roleplaying systems have shown this already)! Those things might make
> a combat more realistic, but unplayable. Further I don`t want a
> hero without his left hand or right foot!

Then you don`t have to use his idea. No need to get insulting.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Ariadne
09-13-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Birthright-L (Daniel McSorley)

So you fight a goblin, get stabbed with a spear, and you`re exhausted? No way, that would never happen.
If you follow this house rule and you don't have an AC good enough not to be hit (often), you ARE exhausted after two or three good spear hits!


Originally posted by Birthright-L (Daniel McSorley)

No need to get insulting.
It wasn't my intension to get insulting. I only pointed out, that the rules are the rules and to create some new in this manner would complicate this game incredible. As I have already said, such a combat would take hours and also would take a lot of fun. Naturally I haven't to use this rule, but it should be said!

Sir Justine
09-13-2002, 06:50 PM
[quote]Orginally posted by Ariadne
Sorry, but this house rule is nonsense! If you have only 10 HP, you're exhausted after you fight only one stupid goblin! Otherwise, if you have 100 HP and fight a dragon with AC 30+ he hit's you twice and you can go home (-6 to Str makes you unable to hit this dragon and -6 to Dex makes you simply his dinner!)
[quote]

Sorry you didn't like, Ariadne. It's just that, with the little knowledge I have about medicine, people tend to get hurt when perforated (not perfured, as Peter pointed me ;) ) by spears. Especially after two or three good hits. And when people get hurt, their physical capabilities tend to diminish. And, at least IMC, common people don't call goblin stupids. They fear goblins. And someone with 10 hp is, at the most, a very young and unexperienced warrior. Just the kind of person that tends to lose fights. And an experienced fighter will NOT, with this rule, have any problems with goblins, he will still defeat a couple of them. Sure, if he confronts a lot of goblins, he can die, but then, he should have called an army...
And about dragons... IMO being the dinner of a dragon is the natural state of a human. People shoudn't have this sort of opinion about dragons: "What? He bites me twice and I can't fight with him anymore? How could that happen? The dragon won the fight, this is unbelievable!"

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to play Rolemaster, nor do I want a "more-real-than-life" rpg. Fights don't take hours IMC, but neither should be a fight be taken as a walk to the park. People die in fights... It's just that I don't like this sort of thinking: "Huaaa... fighter Bob, another chimera... but I'm sleepy. You fight it, when you are low on hp you wake me up. Ok fighter Joe."

But this is just my opinion...

Azrai
09-13-2002, 07:49 PM
I don't like this rule, because it's not D&D. one has to admit that D&D has an abstract hit-point-system, this is well known and has been discussed several years. there were also thoughts of inventing some kind of exhaustion rules.

the official game-designers always dropped this rule, because it does not fit to the D&D game; I think they had their reason.

there is no need of inventing mysterious and unbalanced house-rules.


as for ariadne, I did not see any "insulting" as Birthright-L pointed out.

Azrai
09-13-2002, 07:53 PM
Then you don`t have to use his idea.
then why are we discussing anyway about rules? THIS is an insulting statement.

kgauck
09-13-2002, 10:59 PM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sir Justine" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 1:50 PM


> Sorry you didn`t like, Ariadne. It`s just that, with the little
> knowledge I have about medicine, people tend to get hurt
> when perforated by spears.

That is why I like to use wound points. Wound points are a standard d20
mechanic that is only slightly more complicated to use. I figure that the
first damage die of a critical hit does wound damage. So most weapon hits
are not going do those perforating hits. That spear will normally bruise
and bludgen, with only critical hits doing the harsh damage of a
perforation.

Since wound points are just another use of your Constitution score, every
person as a pretty similar amount. That 10th level fighter can`t withstand
any more spears piercing his body than the 1st level wizard can. What the
10th level fighter can do that the 1st level wizard can`t is indure a lot
more banging, bruising, buffeting, and pounding before he`s going to suffer
any effects.

Even the most high level fighter will occasionally have to bow out of a
battle because an enemy landed a lucky blow and the fighter is seriously
wounded. And yet, he may still have a large number of hit points.
Obvioulsy weapons with large threat ranges become more dangerous this way.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Sir Justine
09-13-2002, 11:18 PM
Ok, I already see you didn't like my rule ;) . And of course I can understand that.
And I don't want to insult anyone here, but Azrai you said:


Orginally posted by Azrai
there is no need of inventing mysterious and unbalanced house-rules.


Then, in your next post you said:


Orginally posted by Azrai
then why are we discussing anyway about rules?


Sorry if you think my rule is misterious and unbalanced.
It's just something I thought was related with geeman's initial topic.

Sir Justine
09-13-2002, 11:31 PM
Orginally posted by kgauck
That is why I like to use wound points. Wound points are a standard d20
mechanic that is only slightly more complicated to use. I figure that the
first damage die of a critical hit does wound damage. So most weapon hits
are not going do those perforating hits. That spear will normally bruise
and bludgen, with only critical hits doing the harsh damage of a
perforation.


You are right Kenneth. IMO the vitality/wound system is much better than hp. The only thing that prevented me from using this system in D&D was the critical modifiers. I didn't want to lose that aspect of weapons - I like differences in weapons.
But if you just made the rules work the way they do in the vitality system with the multipliers of D&D, it would create some unbalance. I thought about reducing each weapon modifier by -1x. So a sword would do the same damage on a crit, but it would go to the wounds. But even so a critical hit with an axe would be to fatal, I guess. (x2 damage to your constitution is sure to get you out of combat, if not kill you).

But your solution may be better. Can you explain it better? Are you saying that a sword with crit x2 does one die to wounds and one to vitality? And an axe one die to wounds and two to vitality?

geeman
09-14-2002, 12:26 AM
At 06:37 PM 9/12/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Ever wondered why a dagger does 1-4 and a sword 1-8 ? Why `those` numbers
>especially? (This is a bit left of the topic) A character on 1 hit point
>struck by a dagger (with no bonuses) will be at 0 to -3, while a sword can
>do 0 to -7. Thus a dagger can only lightly wound on its first blow, while
>a sword can inflict serious or even critical wounds. But back to the point

Somehow I doubt that was the actual thinking that went into assigning the
damage dice or the -10 rule. Do you have some sort of reference from 2e to
support that being the actual intent or is this just another
rationalization of the D&D combat rules? In either case, if this is one of
the aspects of 2e combat that at first blush appears simplistic, but is
really deceptively deep then you`ll be pleased to know it remains in 3e
since daggers still do 1d4 damage, longswords still do 1d8 and the -10 rule
is just as easily employed.

>It`s the same in D&D. On 0 through to -3 hit points, the character is
>unable to continue combat (as well as a number of other things), but
>he`s not dead - far from it - although if his opponent so wished it
>wouldn`t be hard to make him so. He`s just not capable of fighting on.
>Of course -4 to -6 is a much scarier situation, as is anything worse.
>But a character on 1 hit point (regardless of whether he started with 1
>or 100) is fully capable of combat.

The D20 Vitality/Wound system is IMO a better way of handling this kind of
thing than the optional -10 rule, and even V/W has some aspects that are
insensible as hit points. The -10 rule, for instance, proscribes the same
amount of actual physical damage to all characters and, in fact, all
beings. All debilitating damage is represented by 0 to -9, with death
always occurring at -10. It doesn`t matter if we`re talking about a sickly
little schoolgirl or the burliest barbarian warrior. If you continue the
analogy, a rat has the same 0 to -10 range that an elephant has, and a will
o` wisp has the same range as an ancient red dragon.

Using Vitality/Wound there is a least some variation in the amount of
actual physical damage being taken, as the constitution score becomes the
range of wound damage rather than 0 to -9, and "hit points" become the
abstracted "vitality" of the character. The range from 0 to -9 becomes the
period of `dying` rather than actual physical damage. Using only the -10
rule the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness is
1hp. Using V/W there is a stage in which players are injured, but not out.

When you consider size as a factor, however, the V/W system is less easily
rationalized--though still not as bad as regular hit points. V/W tends to
get used in campaign settings in which larger creatures don`t exist or are
much more rare, so I don`t think that aspect of the system has really been
fleshed out much. I`ve been considering using it for BR/D&D with the
inclusion of a size modifier for wound points. So the aforementioned rat
would have 8 wound points (10 constitution -2 for size tiny) while an
elephant would have 23 (constitution 21 +2 for size huge.) Doubling size
modifiers for the purpose of wound points might make more sense.

Gary

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kgauck
09-14-2002, 01:56 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sir Justine" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 6:31 PM

> Are you saying that a sword with crit x2 does one die to wounds
> and one to vitality? And an axe one die to wounds and two to vitality?

Exactly. So when Edward took an arrow in the eye and died on the field of
Hastings, he took a die to wounds and two to vitality. It was enough to
cost him the English throne.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck
09-14-2002, 01:56 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:21 PM


> I`ve been considering using [vitality/wounds] for BR/D&D with the
> inclusion of a size modifier for wound points. So the aforementioned
> rat would have 8 wound points (10 constitution -2 for size tiny) while
> an elephant would have 23 (constitution 21 +2 for size huge.) Doubling
> size modifiers for the purpose of wound points might make more sense.

This is a great idea. Doubling of size modifiers will require a close eye
on Con scores, since part of the reason someone gave that elephant a 21 Con
was to give it the hp bonus.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Trithemius
09-14-2002, 03:40 AM
Ariadne (I think...):
> Further I don`t want a hero
> without his left hand or right foot!

Or rather, you don`t want a hero who loses a hand or foot without your
say so. I played a character who I always planned to have lose a hand
once, it was kind of interesting.

Point taken though. I am of the opinion that even aging effects can
intrude on the players control over the PC.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
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Trithemius
09-14-2002, 04:25 AM
Kenneth Gauck:
> That is why I like to use wound points. Wound points are a
> standard d20 mechanic that is only slightly more complicated
> to use. I figure that the first damage die of a critical hit
> does wound damage. So most weapon hits are not going do
> those perforating hits. That spear will normally bruise and
> bludgen, with only critical hits doing the harsh damage of a
> perforation.

<snip!>

> Even the most high level fighter will occasionally have to
> bow out of a battle because an enemy landed a lucky blow and
> the fighter is seriously wounded. And yet, he may still have
> a large number of hit points. Obvioulsy weapons with large
> threat ranges become more dangerous this way.

I have also thought about doing this sort of thing (ala Star Wars d20).
I think that a radical change in threat ranges and a reduction of the
critical multipliers would be in order if this was to be implemented. I
also think that the Keen weapon quality and the Keen Edge spell would
need to be increased in cost and level, respectively. Finally I`d link
Improved Critical to Weapon Focus, at least, and possibly only to Weapon
Specialisation.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
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Trithemius
09-14-2002, 04:25 AM
Azrai:
> then why are we discussing anyway about rules? THIS is an
> insulting statement.

Huh?!

I`m confused.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
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Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius
09-14-2002, 04:25 AM
Azrai:
> as for ariadne, I did not see any "insulting" as Birthright-L
> pointed out.

"Birthright-L" is a list made up of about 230-something people.
"Birthright-L" doesn`t have any opinions of its own.

Daniel McSorley felt that Ariadne was being a bit sharp, that`s all.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius
09-14-2002, 04:25 AM
Daniel McSorely:
> So you fight a goblin, get stabbed with a spear, and you`re
> exhausted? No way, that would never happen. I, personally,
> have been stabbed with hundreds of spears, and though I once
> needed a cool glass of iced tea afterward, it`s never slowed
> me down in the least.

Dan! Dan! He`s our man! If he can`t do it - no-one can!

;)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius
09-14-2002, 04:25 AM
Kenneth Gauck:
> Exactly. So when Edward took an arrow in the eye and died on
> the field of Hastings, he took a die to wounds and two to
> vitality. It was enough to cost him the English throne.

Damn low CON kings ;)
That or we had a fourth level bow specialist with high STR shoot at him.

I like the approach, but I am not sure if I would even bother with
multipliers if I was to adopt such a method in my games.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
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kgauck
09-14-2002, 04:25 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 10:31 PM

> Or rather, you don`t want a hero who loses a hand or foot without
> your say so. [...] Point taken though. I am of the opinion that even
> aging effects can intrude on the players control over the PC.

I`m inclined to regard aging effects as normal, while creating the allowance
that magical efforts can mitigate them. My preference, however, is that
players eventually take on the role of their heirs and eventually allow the
elder character to yield in favor of the younger.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Peter Lubke
09-14-2002, 04:28 AM
On Fri, 2002-09-13 at 18:30, the Falcon wrote:

<< Anyone have thoughts on this? >>

No more tables in combat - please!

hear hear!!


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kgauck
09-14-2002, 04:28 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 10:40 PM


> I think that a radical change in threat ranges and a reduction of the
> critical multipliers would be in order if this was to be implemented. I
> also think that the Keen weapon quality and the Keen Edge spell would
> need to be increased in cost and level, respectively. Finally I`d link
> Improved Critical to Weapon Focus, at least, and possibly only to Weapon
> Specialisation.

It true that by the time a fighter (esp a strong one) gets his BAB to +8 and
takes Improved Critical, a rapier can become a very deadly weapon. Critical
threats would occur at 15, and so the spectre of killing a high level
character with two attacks becomes a possibility.

But there are both other examples of such power, and counter measures. The
rogue who specializes in flank attacks is one example of the first,
increased use of defensive tactics in combat is an example of the second.

I should disclose I`m looking for ways to add more subdual damage into
combat as well. I guess I think combat should be dangerous. ;-)

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck
09-14-2002, 06:33 AM
>> No more tables in combat - please!
> hear hear!!

I think fumble-fun can be had by exploiting the opportunity attacks concept.
No charts and tables, and we already know how the mechanic works.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Peter Lubke
09-14-2002, 06:33 AM
On Sat, 2002-09-14 at 02:03, daniel mcsorley wrote:

On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Ariadne wrote:
>
Originally posted by Sir Justine
> IMC we made a house rule to fix this: when the character reaches 50%
> of his total hp he gets fatigated (-2 Str and Dex; can`t run or
> charge), and when he gets to 25% of his total hp he gets exausted (-6
> Str and Dex; can`t run or charge; moves at half his normal
> speed).
>
> Sorry, but this house rule is nonsense! If you have only 10 HP, you`re
> exhausted after you fight only one stupid goblin!

So you fight a goblin, get stabbed with a spear, and you`re exhausted? No
way, that would never happen. I, personally, have been stabbed with
hundreds of spears, and though I once needed a cool glass of iced tea
afterward, it`s never slowed me down in the least.

> If you want more realism, play "Rolemaster" instead. To have more
> tables to role on, one stupid fight takes hours and hours (other
> roleplaying systems have shown this already)! Those things might make
> a combat more realistic, but unplayable. Further I don`t want a
> hero without his left hand or right foot!

Then you don`t have to use his idea. No need to get insulting.

who said anything insulting? This idea (of Sir Justine) isn`t bad - it`s
dangerous. It`s not a question of taste. It`s a question of basics. Such
a rule, house or otherwise strikes at the intrinsic idea behind D&D
combat. But it`s not the first of its kind - he has been led down this
path by some extremely greedy and ignorant editors. Those 2e supplements
(and I`m not big on book-burning but they would be first on the pile)
opened the whole realistic combat up -- and 3e has largely adopted their
attempts.

A short list of `nonsense` combat rules.

hit locations (for every hit)
critical hits (except under very extraordinary circumstances - e.g.
vorpal weapon)
weapon speed (cf combat initiative in general)
combat initiative
`called` shots (actually this was just poorly implemented)
multiple attacks !!!!!! (multiple multiple ? -- weak attempt at
strengthening fighters v mages)
weapon styles (2 handed style, 2 weapon style etc)
hit point bonus for high constitution
thac0

None of these ideas are bad. There`s nothing wrong with any of the
`ideas` - just the rules for implementing them. (well except maybe
`thac0`)

hit locations - only when actually damaged to -6 or more hit points
critical hits - only with special attacks (poison, vorpal sword,
sword of wounding, etc), in fact these are all that is needed. Most
critical hit systems suffer from one of two flaws (i) you `always
hit` on an `x` regardless of actual difficulty - and thus in some
cases always critical if you manage to hit at all, or (ii) only
critical if you exceed the regular hit value - a kind of `win faster
and better` scenario which creates double jeopardy and unfairly
disadvantages heroic `against the odds` combat by making it even
more so.
weapon speed - an advantage in combat - duh!? - Dagger faster than
sword, but sword has greater reach - quite apart from getting it
wrong - see combat initiative, if speed does become a factor (which
it could e.g. scimitar of speed), this is much better handled as a
bonus to strike (see haste and slow spells for similar effects)
combat initiative - because of the
attack/opportunity/feint/strike/move situation there is no `combat
initiative` or first strike. In only one case is it possibly
important to know who strikes first (i) when both parties have the
potential to kill or wound (taking the other to 0 hit points or
below), and even there it is restrictive to deny the opportunity of
the `dying blow` or `mutual strike`
`called shots` - target changes - not striking the original (easier)
target- change the AC you are trying to hit - never ever ever modify
your `to hit` roll
multiple attacks - each combat round is intrinsically full of
multiple attacks - there are two cases where this could be justified
however (i) ranged attacks against targets not in melee, and (ii)
attacks (cf defense) against multiple opponents in melee (all in
frontal positions). I find the argument for (ii) to be rarely
beneficial and mostly baneful to player characters.
weapon styles - love `em but they are aesthetic only - e.g. it is
`stupid` to think that a character that is `proficient` with a staff
(a two handed weapon) doesn`t have the advantages of two-handed
weapon style intrinsically built into the proficiency ... etc etc
hit point bonus for high constitution - Gygax argued himself into a
corner with this one. In one paragraph he puts up a good argument
against such bonuses and in the next he implements one. Obviously he
wanted high con to count for something. Like strength and dexterity
this should have been a one-time bonus (not per level). [otherwise
it destroys the link between combat ability/progression and
character class - making constitution an abnormally powerful factor
in combat ability]
thAC0 - "to hit armor class 0" --- What a joke! Showing their
complete ignorance of combat mechanics and mathematics in
particular, but reacting to a confusing morass of charts, tables,
and poorly explained rules - some brain-dead moron who couldn`t DM
his way out of a paper bag came up with `THAC0`. What is AC0? - who
cares? I`ve got a thac0 of 3 - what does it mean? that it`s better
than a thac0 of 7? I give him an `E` for effort.

Gygax himself said "play another game"(rolemaster), if you want realism
in combat and gave highly compelling reasons NOT to have realistic
mechanics for combat. But he also said that doesn`t mean you have to
sacrifice realistic detail - if you (the DM) want a character to lose an
arm by all means do so - but not to have it as an effect of everyday
combat.

Yes, I really have it in for the humble `thAC0`! It`s a nonsense
statistic. And it did not solve the confusion. And it does not produce
similar results. And it introduced a new class of problem. What a player
wants/needs to know is "what are my chances against that Ogre?"

The answer is actually quite simple (and always has been). The Ogre has
a base AC of 5. I don`t like this statistic (AC) because it doesn`t tell
you anything (it holds no information on it`s own - it depended on a
table or a thAC0 value). I prefer to say that he has a base defensive
rating (DR) of 17 - that is, the minimum number that must be rolled on a
d20 to strike the Ogre. [ for base values a quick conversion is DR = 22
- AC ]

But "thAC0" doesn`t help you yet either - because it`s a dependent
variable not an independent one! What you need to know is: How can I
(the character) affect that chance? - by skill, situation, weapon etc. A
3rd level warrior has +3 in combat skill, and +2 for a magic weapon (for
example) so now, you have a real idea (intrinsically by use of
appropriate terms) that you have a 45% chance to hit. [that`s +5 (5% per
+1 or +25%) to get you to 17 (base 20%, 5% for each of 17,18,19,20)]

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Peter Lubke
09-14-2002, 08:08 AM
On Sat, 2002-09-14 at 04:50, Sir Justine wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=932

Sir Justine wrote:
[quote]Orginally posted by Ariadne
Sorry, but this house rule is nonsense! If you have only 10 HP, you`re exhausted after
you fight only one stupid goblin! Otherwise, if you have 100 HP and fight a dragon with
AC 30+ he hit`s you twice and you can go home (-6 to Str makes you unable to hit this
dragon and -6 to Dex makes you simply his dinner!)
[quote]

Sorry you didn`t like, Ariadne. It`s just that, with the little knowledge I have about
medicine, people tend to get hurt when perforated (not perfured, as Peter pointed me ;) )
by spears. Especially after two or three good hits. And when people get hurt, their
physical capabilities tend to diminish. And, at least IMC, common people don`t call
goblin stupids. They fear goblins. And someone with 10 hp is, at the most, a very young
and unexperienced warrior. Just the kind of person that tends to lose fights. And an
experienced fighter will NOT, with this rule, have any problems with goblins, he will
still defeat a couple of them. Sure, if he confronts a lot of goblins, he can die, but
then, he should have called an army...
And about dragons... IMO being the dinner of a dragon is the natural state of a human.
People shoudn`t have this sort of opinion about dragons: "What? He bites me twice and
I can`t fight with him anymore? How could that happen? The dragon won the fight, this
is unbelievable!"

I agree with your thinking. All this is correct. But it`s like you
pointed out with fatigue/wound points. D&D just has fatigued (all hit
points gone) and not fatigued (not all hit points gone). There`s no
in-between which is what you would like. Yet there is already, as you
lose hit points you get closer to the fatigued state. Characters with
more hit points take longer to get there.


Don`t get me wrong. I don`t want to play Rolemaster, nor do I want a "more-real-than-life"
rpg. Fights don`t take hours IMC, but neither should be a fight be taken as a walk to the
park. People die in fights... It`s just that I don`t like this sort of thinking:
"Huaaa... fighter Bob, another chimera... but I`m sleepy. You fight it,
when you are low on hp you wake me up. Ok fighter Joe."

But this is just my opinion...

I don`t like that sort of thinking either. If however you take the
original D&D view that hits pints represent the luck and skill of the
character then I present an alternative combat position to you - one
that might make Bob and Joe more cautious. This comes from the idea that
it`s not how skillful and lucky Bob is that matters - but how much more
or less so with respect to the Chimera.

If fact combat between two great warriors each with 50 hit points is
fairly even, as is combat between two rogues with 4 hit points each.
Given identical stats and equipment - it should come down to a matter of
luck - who rolls a hit first without the other doing so simultaneously.
Further you could argue that the great warriors, being more skillful
have a better chance at finishing quickly than the less experienced
rogues, rather than the other way around with all those hit points to
get through.

The mechanic is simple. Subtract the value of the lesser hit point total
from the greater hit point total - this is how much more
skillful/lucky/whatever the creature with the greater total is - it`s
their buffer against actual damage. The other has no buffer, they are in
immediate peril - Joe can`t afford to wait while Bob reduces some of the
hit points of the Chimera -- he needs to help him now in the hope that
at least one of them will survive to tend the wounds of the other. (or
run like hell)

In my equal warriors combats, all combatants have no buffer, but the
skill level of the great warriors mean that they will have better
probabilities of scoring a hit than the rogues.

Bob: Warrior 5, hit points 28 leather armor (AC4 - dex 18) THAC0 16 [or
DR 14/18 CS 8 D1-6]
Joe: Warrior 6, hit points 33 chainmail (AC5) battle ax+1 strength 17
THAC0 15 [or DR 17 CS 10 D3-10]
Chimera: HD 9, hit points 41 (+8 v Joe, +13 v Bob) AC 6/5/2 THAC0 12 [or
DR 16/17/20 CS 10 D3-12(dragon head)]

Bob: "Gee that thing looks mean!"
Joe: "Three heads too, I don`t think he likes you either"
Bob: "I thought he was looking at you, I mean with most of the heads."
Joe: "You distract it while I fill it full of arrows."
Bob: "How? Why don`t YOU distract it and I`ll fill it full of arrows
instead - I don`t want to get too close."
Joe: "Pussy! ... Charge!!"

At this point Joe charges toward the Chimera swinging his battle axe,
while Bob fires his longbow at the creature. [my rules: Bob only gets
one shot instead of two because he`s firing into melee, and the chimera
gets but one attack because he has but one opponent - if both Bob and
Joe had melee`ed then the Chimera could use separate attack forms on
each of them, lastly Joe can only attack once regardless because he has
one opponent.]
Rolls: Bob 18+10 = 28 (hit), Chimera 10+10 = 20 (hit) Joe 17+8=25 (hit)
--- note how easy it is to hit for powerful beings
Damage: Bob (1d8+2) 7+2 = 9 (a scratch), Chimera (3d4) 3+4+1 = 8
(ouch!), Joe (1d6) 5 (not enough but closing the gap)

DM: "Okay the Chimeras dragon head bit down hard on Joe`s shoulder, it`s
bad, real bad, he`s down and bleeding. But not before a tremendous swing
with the ax took a nick out of the lion head. Bob`s arrow passed through
a wing only narrowly failing to cause real damage."

Bob: "Get away from him you ... you monster!" (charges to melee
defending Bob)
Joe: "I`m bleeding here, .. is there a doctor in the dungeon? ...
(weakly as he is slipping into unconsciousness).. next time you do the
distracting...."

Chimera: (Bob managed to hurt it, although only slightly - treat as -1
hit points, but a Chimera has a greater ability to absorb damage than
the humans - Joe is hurt real bad (critically wounded) - still the
Chimera *is* hurt and with one able bodied opponent left is in no mood
for a fight - will slink off) [Chimera wound points are 9 + 9 = 18, 9
base plus 1 per hit die, light wounds are -1 to -6 (1/3 of max wounds).
Bob has a CON of 16 giving him 10 + 2 = 12 life points, he is seriously
wounded (2/3 of max = 8) and will fall unconscious with the loss of an
extra point through bleeding.]

DM: "The Chimera has had enough, it`s flying off in search of easier
prey. Do you want to pursue? (if so, how?)"

Let`s call it a draw - although Joe may not be feeling quite so
generous. Should Bob pursue the Chimera he would have a slight advantage
in combat - but Joe will bleed to death in the meantime.

While I used lots of my own rule interpretations there, the premise is
clear: two warriors do not equal one warrior with their combined hit
point total. There is no "Scott Towel", the great absorber. (That`s an
advertisement in Australia for paper towels and also the name of a
ranger from one of our gaming groups) Every time a character enters
combat, he runs a risk equal to that of entering on his own.

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Peter Lubke
09-14-2002, 08:08 AM
On Sat, 2002-09-14 at 10:21, Gary wrote:

At 06:37 PM 9/12/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Ever wondered why a dagger does 1-4 and a sword 1-8 ? Why `those` numbers
>especially? (This is a bit left of the topic) A character on 1 hit point
>struck by a dagger (with no bonuses) will be at 0 to -3, while a sword can
>do 0 to -7. Thus a dagger can only lightly wound on its first blow, while
>a sword can inflict serious or even critical wounds. But back to the point

Somehow I doubt that was the actual thinking that went into assigning the
damage dice or the -10 rule. Do you have some sort of reference from 2e to
support that being the actual intent or is this just another
rationalization of the D&D combat rules? In either case, if this is one of
the aspects of 2e combat that at first blush appears simplistic, but is
really deceptively deep then you`ll be pleased to know it remains in 3e
since daggers still do 1d4 damage, longswords still do 1d8 and the -10 rule
is just as easily employed.

It`s not 2e - it`s pre-2e. Actually it comes from the very beginnings.
When fighters had 1d8 hit points not 1d10. Tactical Studies Rules. (<=
from which came TSR Inc)


>It`s the same in D&D. On 0 through to -3 hit points, the character is
>unable to continue combat (as well as a number of other things), but
>he`s not dead - far from it - although if his opponent so wished it
>wouldn`t be hard to make him so. He`s just not capable of fighting on.
>Of course -4 to -6 is a much scarier situation, as is anything worse.
>But a character on 1 hit point (regardless of whether he started with 1
>or 100) is fully capable of combat.

The D20 Vitality/Wound system is IMO a better way of handling this kind of
thing than the optional -10 rule, and even V/W has some aspects that are
insensible as hit points. The -10 rule, for instance, proscribes the same
amount of actual physical damage to all characters and, in fact, all
beings. All debilitating damage is represented by 0 to -9, with death
always occurring at -10. It doesn`t matter if we`re talking about a sickly
little schoolgirl or the burliest barbarian warrior. If you continue the
analogy, a rat has the same 0 to -10 range that an elephant has, and a will
o` wisp has the same range as an ancient red dragon.

Yes, the -10 for everyone/everything is arbitrary. I don`t think that
anyone was particularly interested in the wound system of monsters early
on - too much focus on characters. I personally apply the constitution
bonus to 10 to characters with constitutions giving a range of 8 to 14
usually. Creatures with HD have 9 + HD of wound points with 1-1HD being
8, 1/2HD 5 etc. My sickly schoolgirl wound be 6, 8 being maximum for
0-level humans, -2 for a constitution of 3. The burliest barbarian
(barbarians are an exception with me being treated as if they have a
constitution 4 points higher for this purpose) could have as high as 16
wound points - equal to a 7HD monster!!


Using Vitality/Wound there is a least some variation in the amount of
actual physical damage being taken, as the constitution score becomes the
range of wound damage rather than 0 to -9, and "hit points" become the
abstracted "vitality" of the character. The range from 0 to -9 becomes the
period of `dying` rather than actual physical damage. Using only the -10
rule the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness is
1hp. Using V/W there is a stage in which players are injured, but not out.

When you consider size as a factor, however, the V/W system is less easily
rationalized--though still not as bad as regular hit points. V/W tends to
get used in campaign settings in which larger creatures don`t exist or are
much more rare, so I don`t think that aspect of the system has really been
fleshed out much. I`ve been considering using it for BR/D&D with the
inclusion of a size modifier for wound points. So the aforementioned rat
would have 8 wound points (10 constitution -2 for size tiny) while an
elephant would have 23 (constitution 21 +2 for size huge.) Doubling size
modifiers for the purpose of wound points might make more sense.

Size is more or less taken into account by the larger HD. Most large
creatures have significant HD. This is offset in some ways by the
different damage by weapons against large creatures. Daggers for example
do even less, while a big sword can do slightly more.


Gary

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Peter Lubke
09-14-2002, 08:08 AM
On Sat, 2002-09-14 at 13:40, John Machin wrote:

Daniel McSorely:
> So you fight a goblin, get stabbed with a spear, and you`re
> exhausted? No way, that would never happen. I, personally,
> have been stabbed with hundreds of spears, and though I once
> needed a cool glass of iced tea afterward, it`s never slowed
> me down in the least.

Dan! Dan! He`s our man! If he can`t do it - no-one can!

;)

There was more than ice and tea in that iced tea - I`ll bet!


--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Starfox
09-14-2002, 09:02 AM
On Wound Points

Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM> wrote at 02-09-14 06.25:

> there are both other examples of such power, and counter measures. The
> rogue who specializes in flank attacks is one example of the first

This is one of the reasons why wound/vitality points don`t really work well
in a fantasy setting - there are things out there that do such vast amounts
of damage that any critical hit will kill ay human.

Imgane what a critical hit with the Flame Arrow spell does - 4d6 wound
points will kill most people right away. And a high-level caster gets
several chances to score critical hits with each cast of the spell.

Your example of a rogue with sneak attack is also devastating, especially if
you equip him with a keen rapier and the Improved Critical feat. A threat
range of 11-20, causing 7d6 damage at level 11 (the earliet point at which a
rogue can get Improved Critical). If you use wound points, I recommend that
Sneak Attack increases the threat range of weapons rather than increasing
damage.

As stated in the DMG, anything which increases the randomness of combat is a
boon to the monsters, as most fights are stacked so that the PCs will win if
all rolls come out average. Of course, if you want a very dangerous game,
this is OK. But then you have to expect your players to hide behind their
armies whenever a big monster comes around, and how fun is that?

/Carl

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Ariadne
09-14-2002, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Sir Justine

And, at least IMC, common people don`t call goblin stupids. They fear goblins.
Yes, common people say that... , but who is common?


Originally posted by Sir Justine

And about dragons... IMO being the dinner of a dragon is the natural state of a human. People shoudn`t have this sort of opinion about dragons: "What? He bites me twice and
I can`t fight with him anymore? How could that happen? The dragon won the fight, this is unbelievable!"
That's why hero's exist to reverse this statistics ;) !



Originally posted by Trithemius

Point taken though. I am of the opinion that even aging effects can intrude on the players control over the PC.

Problems with aging attacks? That's why I love elves ;) !

Peter Lubke
09-14-2002, 12:51 PM
On Sat, 2002-09-14 at 18:52, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:

On Wound Points

Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM> wrote at 02-09-14 06.25:

> there are both other examples of such power, and counter measures. The
> rogue who specializes in flank attacks is one example of the first

This is one of the reasons why wound/vitality points don`t really work well
in a fantasy setting - there are things out there that do such vast amounts
of damage that any critical hit will kill ay human.

All humans have pretty much the same ability to endure or absorb damage
(within a narrow range). The same cannot be said to be true for their
ability to avoid such damage - obviously great heroes have been able to
do so in the past, and are therefore likely to do so in the future.
Their vitality is much higher than more mundane humans.

Spells in D&D that do damage follow an erratic but explainable pattern.
A first level spell is less powerful than a 5th level spell. This seems
an obvious point but I don`t think that its implications are so
immediately obvious. A 5th level spell requires a 9th level caster
(usually), so lets compare that with a 1st level spell cast by a 9th
level caster. The 1st level spell is no more powerful for being cast by
the high level caster - but is stronger in its attack. That is, you will
need more vitality (hit points) to avoid damage from the attack. It
doesn`t do any more real damage than if cast by a first level caster
however.

Imgane what a critical hit with the Flame Arrow spell does - 4d6 wound
points will kill most people right away. And a high-level caster gets
several chances to score critical hits with each cast of the spell.

Your example of a rogue with sneak attack is also devastating, especially if
you equip him with a keen rapier and the Improved Critical feat. A threat
range of 11-20, causing 7d6 damage at level 11 (the earliet point at which a
rogue can get Improved Critical). If you use wound points, I recommend that
Sneak Attack increases the threat range of weapons rather than increasing
damage.

As stated in the DMG, anything which increases the randomness of combat is a
boon to the monsters, as most fights are stacked so that the PCs will win if
all rolls come out average. Of course, if you want a very dangerous game,
this is OK. But then you have to expect your players to hide behind their
armies whenever a big monster comes around, and how fun is that?

/Carl

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Trithemius
09-14-2002, 04:58 PM
Ariadne:
> Problems with aging attacks? That`s why I love elves ;) !

More of a problem with daft tables describing how ALL people age.

I prefer to use Ars Magica style aging rules when I use them. In general
though, I prefer to let players (with GM consultation and approval)
decide on the effects of aging.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius
09-14-2002, 04:58 PM
Kenneth:
> But there are both other examples of such power, and counter
> measures. The rogue who specializes in flank attacks is one
> example of the first, increased use of defensive tactics in
> combat is an example of the second.

An interesting point comes to mind. What sort of damage is Sneak Attack
damage? Is a critically hitting Sneak Attack all Wound Damage, or just
the first die?

> I should disclose I`m looking for ways to add more subdual
> damage into combat as well. I guess I think combat should be
> dangerous. ;-)

I`ve played two Star Wars d20 scenarios at RPG tournaments over the last
year. In both of them the final battle was over very quickly as the main
antagonist was rapidly killed by critical hits. This occurred even in
fights that the PCs weren`t supposed to win. The critical system is
really neat, and very "gritty", but I think that it can just be too
deadly. I enjoy character creation, but I also enjoy playing the
characters that I make for more than a session or two :)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Eosin the Red
09-14-2002, 05:57 PM
Hey John,

I have a system for WP/VP all worked out on my web site. It comes at it a
little different than SW. Currently that section is blown up (in the middle
of a site wide change over) but you can cut the text and tables out and into
word and read it. I need to do some tweaking to the armor rules and decrease
the DR to a max of +5. Sorry, it isn`t clean and neat.

http://www.mabinogin.com/wounds_&_armor.htm

Later,

Eosin the Red




----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: CUSTOM: Critical Hit/Fumble Variant. [2#932]


> Kenneth:
> > But there are both other examples of such power, and counter
> > measures. The rogue who specializes in flank attacks is one
> > example of the first, increased use of defensive tactics in
> > combat is an example of the second.
>
> An interesting point comes to mind. What sort of damage is Sneak Attack
> damage? Is a critically hitting Sneak Attack all Wound Damage, or just
> the first die?
>
> > I should disclose I`m looking for ways to add more subdual
> > damage into combat as well. I guess I think combat should be
> > dangerous. ;-)
>
> I`ve played two Star Wars d20 scenarios at RPG tournaments over the last
> year. In both of them the final battle was over very quickly as the main
> antagonist was rapidly killed by critical hits. This occurred even in
> fights that the PCs weren`t supposed to win. The critical system is
> really neat, and very "gritty", but I think that it can just be too
> deadly. I enjoy character creation, but I also enjoy playing the
> characters that I make for more than a session or two :)
>
> --
> John Machin
> (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
> -----------------------------------
> "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
> Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
>
>
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kgauck
09-14-2002, 06:43 PM
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:11 AM


> An interesting point comes to mind. What sort of damage is Sneak Attack
> damage? Is a critically hitting Sneak Attack all Wound Damage, or just
> the first die?

Just the attack proper, all bonus dice are hp damage whether caused by
special skills, flaming swords, or critical hits. If Aldbeorht silent-feet
sneaks up behind you and sneak attacks with his blackened dagger and scores
a critical, he does d4 points of wound damage, another d4 of hp damage for
the bonus critical damage, and then his d6`s of sneak attack bonus dice
doing hp damage.

> I`ve played two Star Wars d20 scenarios at RPG tournaments over the last
> year. In both of them the final battle was over very quickly as the main
> antagonist was rapidly killed by critical hits. This occurred even in
> fights that the PCs weren`t supposed to win. The critical system is
> really neat, and very "gritty", but I think that it can just be too
> deadly. I enjoy character creation, but I also enjoy playing the
> characters that I make for more than a session or two :)

Some other strategies I`ve been considering (thining Rjurik here) is the
Sanctuary Rune. Worn around the neck or carved into the pommel of a weapon,
the adventurer activates the rune when things get grim. Squires (aka cniht)
also carry a sanctuary rune to wade into a combat and drag their fallen
masters to safety. Having a retainer to carry your arms and tend to your
injuries is a valuable protection against death. Losing all your wound
points (looking at SWRPG) causes dying, not death. There you remain until
you fail a DC 10 Fort save, then you die This offers the possibility that
someone will come by an administer a Heal attempt or even cast a Cure Minior
Wounds. If successful (DC15) you`re stable, and still unconcious. Imagine
the field of battle several hours later, with the men crying out and
moaning. Death is not neccesarily instantaneous. Its always possible to
carry the wounded off while fighting a rearguard action, or to revive them
after the battle. Of course a moment of treating their injury to stabilize
them is always required. Spells like Expeditious Retreat and Sanctuary
become valuable tactical spells.

Also, a Gary was mentioning not to long ago, talking your way through
encounters becomes more advantageous. With a wounds system added to
standard D&D hit points and subdual, or just shifting over to a
wounds/vitality system, combat requires a little more thought and a little
more discretion, but it shouldn`t be too much more deadly. Talk more, use
better tactics, and things will go fine.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L
09-14-2002, 06:43 PM
Kenneth Gauck wrote
>>I think fumble-fun can be had by exploiting the opportunity attacks
concept.
>>No charts and tables, and we already know how the mechanic works.<<<

I did like the idea behind the original table Gary provided. For mechanics
however, I would propose the following, making use of opposed rolls and
attacks of opportunity:

On a roll of 1 or 20 the combatants make opposed Dex checks. On a roll of 20
the attacker gets an attack of opportunity, if he wins the roll. On a roll
of 1 the defender gets that attack if he wins the opposed check. This
represents the chance that one combattant finds an opening in his opponent`s
defences, either due to his own skill or due to a fumble of his opponent.

The attack of opportunity must be used for one of the following maneuvers:
Strike a weapon or shield, Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple or Trip. ( I don`t
think it would be an unbalancing advantage if pcs and npcs could choose
which maneuver to apply instead of rolling randomly on a table for a
specific maneuver)

Note: This would be in addition to the increased damage of the critical.
Normally these maneuvers provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent.
In this special case they shouldn`t. I` m not sure yet whether this special
attack of opportunity should count against the max. number of these attacks
or whether it would be in addition to them. Opinions?

BTW, Gary, feint might be included, but I couldn`t find it in the PHB.
Where did you find that effect and what are its consequences?
Additional effects, like daze, blind, numbness or negative modifiers to
attributes or attack rolls could be added, but I` prefer to include these in
specific fighting style feats. The 2ed Savage Coast setting (still
downloadable for free from Wizards of the Coast, I believe) introduced a
number of specific maneuvers for differing schools of fighting that could be
used and an old issue of Dragon Magazine expanded that list (at the moment I
don`t know which).

Comments so far?

Okay, topic vitality/wound points:
Carl Cramer wrote:
[snip]
>>This is one of the reasons why wound/vitality points don`t really work
well
>in a fantasy setting - there are things out there that do such vast amounts
>of damage that any critical hit will kill ay human.
[snip]
<<<<<
I agree with Carl Cramers arguments against such a system.
Furthermore, I believe that it makes larger monsters too easy to kill, at
least if you use the constitution score alone for wound points.
For example, most dragons in the MM have a Con of 27 at the great wyrm age
category ( with 33 being the max for gold dragons). With a couple of
critical hits (which are not that hard to come by with the right combination
of weapons and feats and maybe sneak attacks), a party could take out such a
dragon quite quickly. Of course, adding a size modifier or the Hit dice to
that score may help somewhat, but I`m still not convinced that this is
enough.

Disregarding criticals, wound points seem to add another number to the
already incredible number of hit points in 3ed, if I understood the system
right, that is. BTW, I`m seriously thinking about re-introducing a cap to
hit points like in previous editions(i.e. no CON modifier, and only a set
amount of hp per level after the, say, tenth.). A human fighter with more
hitpoints than your average dragon seriously messes with my suspension of
disbelief. I am not sure how this would work within the overall framework of
the rules, so comments would be welcome. Fortunately I`m just about to start
a new campaign at first level, so I can forestall this problem for quite
some time.

Christoph Tiemann

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Birthright-L
09-14-2002, 09:25 PM
On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> I should disclose I`m looking for ways to add more subdual damage into
> combat as well. I guess I think combat should be dangerous. ;-)

In Alternity, damage was divided into four tracks, Mortal, Wound, Stun,
and Fatigue. Damage to a higher category trickled down to lower
categories. More dangerous weapons did Mortal damage, others did wound or
stun on a regular hit.

I believe the original rule was that for each Mortal point
you took, you took one also in Wound and Stun. For each Wound, you got
one Stun. This was later revised to 1 wound& stun per 2 mortal, 1 stun
per two wound. I liked the original rule myself.

A 3eD&D analog of this system might be to state that every die of damage
is mirrored in subdual damage as well. Hit with a longsword, do 1d8
regular and 1d8 subdual. Or, if that`s too much extra die rolling, just
half and half it, or use the same die roll for each, a longsword does 1d8
regular and an identical amount of subdual.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Birthright-L
09-14-2002, 09:25 PM
On Sat, 14 Sep 2002, John Machin wrote:
> > as for ariadne, I did not see any "insulting" as Birthright-L
> > pointed out.
>
> "Birthright-L" is a list made up of about 230-something people.
> "Birthright-L" doesn`t have any opinions of its own.
>
> Daniel McSorley felt that Ariadne was being a bit sharp, that`s all.

Are you trying to imply that I don`t speak for the entire list? That`s a
pretty good guess, I`d say.

One of the confusions of our nifty board-list crossover system.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Starfox
09-14-2002, 09:48 PM
Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-14 13.03:

> Spells in D&D that do damage follow an erratic but explainable pattern.
> A first level spell is less powerful than a 5th level spell. This seems
> an obvious point but I don`t think that its implications are so
> immediately obvious. A 5th level spell requires a 9th level caster
> (usually), so lets compare that with a 1st level spell cast by a 9th
> level caster. The 1st level spell is no more powerful for being cast by
> the high level caster - but is stronger in its attack. That is, you will
> need more vitality (hit points) to avoid damage from the attack. It
> doesn`t do any more real damage than if cast by a first level caster
> however.

I fail to se how this is applicable to the point under discussion. My point
was that touch attack spells , having attack rolls, can score critical hits
- and thus do damage directly to wound points. And 4d6 wound points from
Flame Arrow is devastating. This makes combat more chancy. How is what you
wrote above applicable here? What point are you trying to make?

What you are saying is also untrue. A spell cast by a higher level caster
does more "real" damage. An obvious example: a Magic Missile cast at cl 9
generates five missiles, which are quite obviously more damaging than the
single magic missile created by a first level caster, in "real" terms. And
a cl 10 fireball will burn through wooden doors twice as well as a cl 5
fireball.


/Carl

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Trithemius
09-15-2002, 01:37 AM
> Hey John,
>
> I have a system for WP/VP all worked out on my web site. It
> comes at it a little different than SW. Currently that
> section is blown up (in the middle of a site wide change
> over) but you can cut the text and tables out and into word
> and read it. I need to do some tweaking to the armor rules
> and decrease the DR to a max of +5. Sorry, it isn`t clean and neat.
>
> http://www.mabinogin.com/wounds_&_armor.htm

Thanks Eosin. I`ll take a look-see.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Peter Lubke
09-15-2002, 01:37 AM
On Sun, 2002-09-15 at 07:40, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:

Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-14 13.03:

> Spells in D&D that do damage follow an erratic but explainable pattern.
> A first level spell is less powerful than a 5th level spell. This seems
> an obvious point but I don`t think that its implications are so
> immediately obvious. A 5th level spell requires a 9th level caster
> (usually), so lets compare that with a 1st level spell cast by a 9th
> level caster. The 1st level spell is no more powerful for being cast by
> the high level caster - but is stronger in its attack. That is, you will
> need more vitality (hit points) to avoid damage from the attack. It
> doesn`t do any more real damage than if cast by a first level caster
> however.

The D&D wound/vitality doesn`t break down to separate pieces on every
successful strike. Only if the total damage would take a
character/creature to 0 or below is any wound (cf `real`) damage
inflicted. By `real` I mean a wound that has a game mechanic effect on
the character. Scratches, bruises and bumps - while physically real
enough - have no game effect and do not count as wound damage.


I fail to se how this is applicable to the point under discussion. My point
was that touch attack spells , having attack rolls, can score critical hits
- and thus do damage directly to wound points. And 4d6 wound points from
Flame Arrow is devastating. This makes combat more chancy. How is what you
wrote above applicable here? What point are you trying to make?

First point: that 4d6 `wound` points is way too much. 1d6 wound points
is maximum.


What you are saying is also untrue. A spell cast by a higher level caster
does more "real" damage. An obvious example: a Magic Missile cast at cl 9
generates five missiles, which are quite obviously more damaging than the
single magic missile created by a first level caster, in "real" terms.

Second point: That each magic missile spell has a maximum wound damage
against each of its targets. Wound damage (for this spell) is limited to
1d4+1. Directing the entire spell at a single target does not change the
maximum wound damage, but make it more likely that the damage inflicted
will be wound rather than vitality.

And
a cl 10 fireball will burn through wooden doors twice as well as a cl 5
fireball.

Twice as well? You are assuming that the fireball is hotter or
something? Strange this has never ever been mentioned before. The area
of effect for a fireball is fixed, regardless of the number of damage
dice. The saving throw against fireball never wavers in the slightest,
regardless of how many hit dice are involved. Again, I`d limit wound
damage from fireball to a maximum of 1d6, with all other dice being
vitality damage. As for that poor door, it will burn nicely at exactly
the same rate regardless of how many hit dice fireball are involved -
why would you attack a door with a fireball? :-) Doors have saving
throws too. (and feelings)



/Carl

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geeman
09-15-2002, 09:33 AM
At 08:28 AM 9/15/2002 +0200, Carl wrote:

>On the other hand, specialized, high Strength characters with magical
>greatswords can easily score one-hit kills if using wound points. So the
>problem of instant kill criticals remains.

One of the problems I have with the wound/vitality point system is that
wound points aren`t very easily increased and because of that a high level
character can be killed by a lucky shot (as is pointed out from time to
time in those D20 products that use V/W.) Also, I just don`t think a
static value makes a lot of sense in a level based system. The words
"wound" and "vitality" have several implications, of course, mostly having
to do with the difference between actual, physical damage and the effort
needed to avoid such damage, but essentially wound points are still an
abstract way of measuring damage, representing a stage between the "no real
physical damage" of vitality or hit points and the state of
unconsciousness/dying of 0 to -9 so I don`t think it need be all that
rooted in "reality." The modification to the system I`m considering would
make wound points = constitution + size modifier + character level to give
at least some advancement to the wound point system. There are a few feats
that might be used to increase wound points, and there`s always the
additional ability score points when characters level up, which could be
applied to constitution/wound point, but in general I like the idea of
wound points increasing a bit with level. Using the addition of character
level to wound points a high level character could still get taken out by a
lucky shot but the chances are a bit less.

I`m not yet sure this is how I want to work it, but I proposed it to the
players in my group this afternoon and they generally supported the idea,
so it looks like that might be how we`ll do it.

Gary

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Starfox
09-15-2002, 09:33 AM
Thanks for the explaination - your changes to spell damage might be
reasonable under a wound point system.

However, since spells that are not touch attacks can never score critical
hits, the wound point potential of Magic Missile and Fireball is pretty much
irrelevant. Only touch attack spells like Melf`s Acid Arrow and Flame Arrow
can score criticals.

On the other hand, specialized, high Strength characters with magical
greatswords can easily score one-hit kills if using wound points. So the
problem of instant kill criticals remains.

Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-15 03.35:

>> And a cl 10 fireball will burn through wooden doors twice as well as a cl 5
>> fireball.
>>
> Twice as well? You are assuming that the fireball is hotter or something?
> Strange this has never ever been mentioned before. The area of effect for a
> fireball is fixed, regardless of the number of damage dice. The saving throw
> against fireball never wavers in the slightest, regardless of how many hit
> dice are involved. Again, I`d limit wound damage from fireball to a maximum of
> 1d6, with all other dice being vitality damage. As for that poor door, it will
> burn nicely at exactly the same rate regardless of how many hit dice fireball
> are involved - why would you attack a door with a fireball? :-) Doors have
> saving throws too. (and feelings)

I was talking about the current rules, modified by the wound/vitality point
rules of Star Wars. And yes, I assume a higher caster-level fireball is
hotter. It is not specifically mentioned, but how else would it do more
damage?

If you want fixed-damage attack spells, try the psionics rules. Or, for that
matter, Wheel of Time.

Under the current rules, doors don`t get to save unless they are magical. By
the definition of Reflex Saves (you don`t get them if you are immobile),
doors never have those, even if they are magical. But objects take only half
damage from fire (PH, page 135). A simple wooden door (hardness 5, 10 hp)
pretty much ignores up to 2d6 damage, while every die of damage thereafter
is likely to penetrate. 5d6 will do around 3 hp to a door - which will not
burn down even a weak door. 10d6 will do about 12 damage to a door - which
will burn through a simple wooden door completely. Slightly scorced vs.
destroyed - indeed some difference. This is one of the drawbacks of Fireball
- collateral damage.

Since I don`t think you`ll be giving the doors vitality points, and all
damage goes to wound points if you lack further vitality points, I`d say
this is a significant difference. Or are objects immune to vitality damage?
In such a case, no fireball could ever damage any wooden door.

This is how objects are damaged using 3E rules. If we are changing the rules
beyond the introduction of wound points, that is an entirely other ticket -
but also a LOT of work. It is also hard to discuss, since there is no common
ground for reference.

Perhaps you are refeering to the item saving throw rules from eariler
editions? In that case, all Fireballs are indeed alike... unless you are
using construction damage (1ed), in which case they do damage depending on
their multiple of five levels. I am not familiar with the siege rules of
2ed, so I can`t speak for those. But this only goes to show that we need to
set a common ground for reference before we discuss these things. And for
me, the default common ground now is 3E DnD. Any deviance from this has to
be pointed out, or discussion becomes pretty pointless.


/Carl

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Starfox
09-15-2002, 09:33 AM
Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote at 02-09-15 09.14:

> essentially wound points are still an
> abstract way of measuring damage

What would be a non-abstract way of measuring damage?

Clubbing your players?

:-)


/Carl


(Arguing for the point of the argument, After all, you did pay me for five
minutes of argument)

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Ariadne
09-15-2002, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Trithemius

More of a problem with daft tables describing how ALL people age.
Yes, but elves age much more slowly than other races (and as I remember from 2nd edition, they are immune to aging attacks).



Originally posted by Birthright-L (Daniel McSorley)

Are you trying to imply that I don`t speak for the entire list? That`s a pretty good guess, I`d say.

One of the confusions of our nifty board-list crossover system.
Yes, and perhaps I should use this list too, if I want to make "sharp" comments again...

geeman
09-15-2002, 05:11 PM
At 10:54 AM 9/15/2002 +0200, Carl wrote:

> > essentially wound points are still an abstract way of measuring damage
>
>What would be a non-abstract way of measuring damage?
>
>Clubbing your players?

Don`t think I haven`t been tempted from time to time. As a matter of fact,
I do keep several boken and a jo in an umbrella stand that is right next to
me as I DM... maybe that`ll be the next step.

OK, this next bit is rather twisted, and may not be suitable for younger
readers (or Tracy Hickman if recent rants on "mature" gaming material are
an indication.) Fair warning.

* * *

Hit points, wound points, the -10 rule. None of these are really very
realistic concepts. In the real world injury is a very weird thing. A
human being can be 99.99% healthy and 100% dead. On the other hand, a
person can be in a plane crash, lose his arms and legs, sight, hearing,
nose, jaw, tongue, lips, be paralyzed from the neck down, and have burns
over 50% of what remains of his body--but survive. He might even still be
able to fulfill a useful function in society (door stop, garden decoration,
seat warmer, practice canvass at a tattoo artist academy... the list goes
on and on.)

I was at a convention many, many years ago and I helped playtest a game
using modern weapons a guy brought in. It was "much better than Top
Secret," he said, TS being the most common modern RPG out at the time with
a "realistic" emphasis. I think his system was called "Sniper!" or some
such thing for reasons that will become obvious. Using this set of game
rules it was almost impossible to actually hit your target because your
target was a little 1" by 1" square. The amount you missed by would
determine how far you missed your square, with several factors added in
like wind speed, distance, a moving target, etc. The direction of the miss
was determined randomly. Once the actual hit location was determined you`d
locate that on a human silhouette and that location would determine
injuries. That was a pretty realistic way of doing things, though several
factors still made it seem unreal to me. It also took a lot of time and
was just too real for my taste. I don`t need to have hits/damage described
that exactly. It was interesting for a couple of hours, but I had no urge
to ever play it again.

Gary

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Trithemius
09-15-2002, 05:11 PM
Aridane:
> Yes, but elves age much more slowly than other
> races (and as I remember from 2nd edition, they are immune to
> aging attacks).

And?
I am afraid I am not sure what you are getting at with the reference to
aging attacks. Sorry.

For the record I don`t deal much with sidhelien PCs since I don`t allow
them in most of my BR campaigns. I feel that sidhelien concepts of
regency and rulership are so different from mortal ones that it means
that mixed mortal/sidhelien campaigns are pointless. The only time I
have permitted sidhelien PC regents was when I was able to focus on
sidhelien rulership alone.

Ariadne:
> Yes, and perhaps I should use this list too,
> if I want to make "sharp" comments again...

Heh. It doesn`t seem to make a difference either way. People seem sharp
enough regardless of whether they use the boards or listserve.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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geeman
09-15-2002, 07:10 PM
At 08:55 PM 9/14/2002 +0200, Christoph Tiemann wrote:

>On a roll of 1 or 20 the combatants make opposed Dex checks.

An opposed Dexterity check makes more sense to me than the DC 15 I had in
there. I tried that for fumbles yesterday and it worked nicely.

>BTW, Gary, feint might be included, but I couldn`t find it in the PHB.
>Where did you find that effect and what are its consequences?

It`s in the PHB under the description of the Bluff skill. (The use of the
Bluff skill to perform physical feints is one of the things I take issue
with in 3e, but we needn`t get into that.)

Gary

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kgauck
09-16-2002, 12:37 AM
To guarantee surviving the death check when loosing all your wound points,
you just need a Fort save of +10. An 8th level fighter with a 14 Con and
Great Fortitude has just such a Fort bonus. They can only die if left for
dead or by coup de grace. Not altogether that fatal.

I`ve gamed out large combats using wounds and wound inflicting criticals.
The battle involved a raid of Blood Skull orogs into Stjordvik. Like many
armies, both sides had a number of camp followers almost equal to the number
of combatants. The twenty housecarls had older boys (14-late teens) who
carried their gear, would act as shield bearers, and several of them had to
drag their housecarls back to safety. All of the housecarls survived. Many
of them had Great Fortitude, and otherwise high Fortitude scores as fighters
with high Str and Con. At higher level, its gets hard to fail a DC 10 Fort
save. If left for dead, they would have a +1 per hour of unconciousness,
but all the wounded were eventually tended to. There were also archers and
spearmen present. The spearmen were warriors with two feats, their starting
feat and their human feat. They all had Set Spear and Weapon Focus. (or
enough did to assume it for everyone for skirmish purposes). Some of these
guys took criticals and were laid low. Some simply went through their hit
points and then through their wound points and were dropped. These guys had
a Con of 12, and +2 Fort bonus from class (a third of them had +3 as) so
they needed a 7 or better to make a DC 10 to avoid dying in the first hour.
About a third of those who lost all their wound points died or 8 out of 75
spearmen. Two thirds would need two weeks to recover their wound damage
(one wound point per day) or 17 out of 75 spearmen. The other 50 spearmen
walked home, some with some degree of injury. The Archers were uninjured,
though some had taken hit point damage. A few goblin archers accompanied
the orog raid, but they were not as effective as the longbow wielding
Rjurik, and were outnumbered.

Some 60 orogs (each described as having 3d8 hit dice and a +4 Fort save)
were the attackers. Some recieved crits, mostly from the housecarls, and
only a handfull were dropped. The orogs eventually fell back with their
wounded carried off. I assigned experience based on the threat, not those
killed, so I can`t say how many were killed, if any. But 11 were dropped,
and given their need to roll a 6 to survive the DC 10 my guess is that no
more than 4 would have died from the experience.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Ariadne
09-16-2002, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Trithemius

For the record I don`t deal much with sidhelien PCs since I don`t allow them in most of my BR campaigns.
May be your sidhelien PC "only" wants to play a source lord. This wouldn't destroy a campaign. Why you shouldn't allow this?


Originally posted by Trithemius

Heh. It doesn`t seem to make a difference either way. People seem sharp enough regardless of whether they use the boards or listserve.

Yes, but some of this list seem to prefer to stay anonym. So you sometimes can only "hit" the birthright-L generally, not the special user...

Trithemius
09-17-2002, 03:55 AM
Ariadne:
> May be your sidhelien PC "only" wants to play a source lord. This
> wouldn`t destroy a campaign. Why you shouldn`t allow this?

I feel that sidhelien and mortals do things in quite different ways and
that a sidhelien ruler (of any holding type) would have a different
suite of advantages and disadvantages that would make them incompatible
with regular campaigns.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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