Detect Bloodline Skill.

[geeman]

The following skill description would replace any bloodline detection
spells and abilities. It would be a class skill for wizards and sorcerers,
cross-class for everyone else. Note: The version of Skill Emphasis I use
makes the skill emphasized a class skill for that character no matter what
class s/he levels up in, so by using a feat any character could gain access
to this skill as a class skill.

Detect Bloodline (Wis; Blooded Only)
You use this skill to learn information about the bloodline of another
character, or mask your own bloodline from detection.
Rank Benefits: If you have four or fewer ranks of Detect Bloodline you
learn only that the subject has a bloodline on a successful skill
check. At 5 ranks a successful Detect Bloodline skill check will reveal
the bloodline strength (tainted, minor, major, great, true) of the
target. At 10 ranks you learn the derivation of the target. At 15 ranks
you learn the exact bloodline strength score of the character. Rank
benefits are cumulative, so if you have 15 ranks of Detect Bloodline you
learn the bloodline strength, derivation and bloodline strength score of
your target.
Check: Use the following list of DCs to make a Detect Bloodline skill
check:

Target
Bloodline DC/
Strength Modifier
True 25
Great 20
Major 15
Minor 10
Tainted 5
Physically touching target -5
Each 10` distance to target +5
Nondetection spell +caster level
Unreadable Thoughts +10
Target`s Detect Bloodline skill +ranks

A Detect Bloodline check is a full round activity. You may not take 20
on a Detect Bloodline check.
Retry: Yes, but you can make a Detect Bloodline check on the same target
only once per day. After 24 hours (or after the time of day when you
regain your spells) you may try again.
Special: If you have the Character Reading blood ability you gain +5 on
Detect Bloodline skill checks.
If you can take the Blood Scent feat you use your skill at Detect
Bloodline to track a blooded character.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Some notes:

1. I made the key ability wisdom because it seemed appropriate and because
Scry is already intelligence. Wisdom is also NOT one of the main
attributes for sorcerers or wizards, so using wisdom helps promote rounded
characters.

2. Any other things that should provide modifiers for the DC?

3. I use rank benefits to determine the effectiveness of the skill check
rather than the roll itself because of the way I set up the DCs. I use a
lot of rank benefits amongst my changes to the skill system, so this fits
into my other changes. It may not play very well using the straight skill
system. YMMV.

4. I haven`t written up the Blood Scent feat yet, but I think it`s pretty
self-explanatory. Blood Scent is to Detect Bloodline what Track is to
Wilderness Lore. I don`t think I`ll even change the DCs.

5. Right now I`m thinking this is a skill that should only be available to
scions (along with a few other "blooded skills" I`m considering) but I`m
not yet convinced that should be the case. I mean, why not a commoner with
such a skill?

Any comments?

Gary

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[Trithemius]

Gary:
<snip! - mechanics>
> 1. I made the key ability wisdom because it seemed
> appropriate and because Scry is already intelligence. Wisdom
> is also NOT one of the main attributes for sorcerers or
> wizards, so using wisdom helps promote rounded characters.

Good plan. I personally like to ensure that most of my magi, my Anuirean
magi anyway, have good wisdom since it is a quality that Ruornil seems
to admire/value and since that it is probably something potential
masters/teachers are looking for.

> 2. Any other things that should provide modifiers for the DC?

Perhaps Azrai`s vitriolic essence is easier to detect? Perhaps that of
Brenna might be a bit harder?

> 3. I use rank benefits to determine the effectiveness of the
> skill check rather than the roll itself because of the way I
> set up the DCs. I use a lot of rank benefits amongst my
> changes to the skill system, so this fits into my other
> changes. It may not play very well using the straight skill
> system. YMMV.

Interesting approach.

> 4. I haven`t written up the Blood Scent feat yet, but I think
> it`s pretty self-explanatory. Blood Scent is to Detect
> Bloodline what Track is to Wilderness Lore. I don`t think
> I`ll even change the DCs.

Very interesting.

> 5. Right now I`m thinking this is a skill that should only be
> available to scions (along with a few other "blooded skills"
> I`m considering) but I`m not yet convinced that should be the
> case. I mean, why not a commoner with such a skill?

Definitely! Arguably there is a certain type of commoner who would be
particularly interested in trackig down scions, if only to try and
become one themselves.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Sir Justine]

Very good skill, Gary. :)

>Target
>Bloodline DC/
>Strength Modifier
>True 25
>Great 20
>Major 15
>Minor 10
>Tainted 5

But, if I understand it right it's easier to detect a Tainted bloodline than a True? Shoudn't be the other way? IMO, the most powerful, it's easier to detect.

[Sir Justine]

About it being based on Wisdow it's right IMO, as Wisdow is the D&D ability for perception.

A little off-topic, but I don't use Scry IMC. I find it a ridiculous skill. I mean, if there's a skill for scry, there should be one for teleport, magic missile, fireball... To don't change the way the spell works much I make the characters use Spellcraft instead.

[geeman]

At 01:49 AM 9/7/2002 +0200, Sir Justine wrote:

>But, if I understand it right it`s easier to detect a Tainted bloodline
>than a True? Shoudn`t be the other way? IMO, the most powerful, it`s
>easier to detect.

Ack! You`re right. Those numbers should be reversed.

Gary

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[Ariadne]

If you reverse the DC for this skill ;) , I like it....

[geeman]

At 10:52 AM 9/7/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:

> If you reverse the DC for this skill ;) , I like it....

Yeah, that`s what happens when one has to retype a table for reproduction
in the Internet. The rest of the text I could just copy and paste, but
when I do tables I have to recreate them using a fixed width font, so
errors in transcription will occur. The DCs should be reversed with
tainted bloodlines being most difficult to detect (DC 25) and true
bloodlines the easiest (DC 5).

Gary

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[Azrai]

I would make a feat out of it. this ability is to special for a skill.

[geeman]

At 12:27 PM 9/8/2002 +0200, Azrai wrote:

> I would make a feat out of it. this ability is to special for a skill.

How would you handle it as a feat?

Gary

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[Trithemius]

Sir Justine:
> A little off-topic, but I don`t use Scry IMC. I find it a
> ridiculous skill. I mean, if there`s a skill for scry, there
> should be one for teleport, magic missile, fireball... To
> don`t change the way the spell works much I make the
> characters use Spellcraft instead.

Interesting point.

I am almost inclined to go in the other direction though, and create
skills that modify the effectiveness of other sorts of spells. However,
I am not sure that this sort of modification would be easier or more
useful than simply throwing out the old magical sysytem and getting a
new one.

Still, I hadn`t thought about Scry that way before, although I have
complained about having to take it ;)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Sir Justine]

My point is not that Scry is necessary bad. But only Scry having a skill for it... Just makes no sense!
About a new magic system, I thought about it already (well, I guess everyone has already). Having one based on skills would be interesting. Do you know Star Wars d20? The force powers are used with skills.

[Trithemius]

Sir Justine wrote:
> My point is not that Scry is necessary bad. But only Scry
> having a skill for it... Just makes no sense! About a new
> magic system, I thought about it already (well, I guess
> everyone has already). Having one based on skills would be
> interesting. Do you know Star Wars d20? The force powers are
> used with skills.

I had thought about using the `magic skills` to provide the "caster
level" of spells. That way more different mages could be designed. I`m
not sure exactly how one would go about it though.

I like the Star Wars force system, but I am not sure if I`d want to make
a skill for every use I could think up for arcane magic.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Sir Justine]

[quote]Orginally posted by Trithemius

I like the Star Wars force system, but I am not sure if I`d want to make
a skill for every use I could think up for arcane magic.

That's a interesting point. One of the factors I less like on D&D arcane spellcasters is that they can do virtually anything. A mid to high-level wizard makes fighters (fireball...), rogues (invisibility, knock, silence...) and everyone else inutile. I mean, one an one a fighter can beat a mage in single combat, but the power of mass destruction a wizard possess with spells like fireball is huge. And I'm not even talking about spells like fly and teleport, that make the rest of the party just hinder the mage ;) .
My point is that others "wizards" like the force users from Star Wars and the Mages from Middle-Earth are powerful, yes, but they have limitations, so they are not absolute. Even in Harry Potter mages have limitations! (they must have their wand in hand to cast spells). I know there are things as spell components and the spellbook, but, well, IMO magic is too absolute in D&D...
I want to know your opinion about this, as you mentioned a different magic system.

[Sir Justine]

Humm, I guess I shoud have started another topic for this dicussion... this isn't exactly about Gary initial post! Sorry!

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sir Justine" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 6:53 PM


> A little off-topic, but I don`t use Scry IMC. I find it a ridiculous
> skill. I mean, if there`s a skill for scry, there should be one for
> teleport, magic missile, fireball... To don`t change the way the
> spell works much I make the characters use Spellcraft instead.

I think Scry is a justifiable skill, and I`ll argue for its preservation.
The reason is not internal, but external. Scry has a powerful game effect,
and therefore should require a little additional investment. Many of the
other skills do involve alternative dice rolls either for damage, or for
touch attacks. Teleport has its own table of effects. In a sense it has a
skill of its own, with five catagorical ranks.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 7:40 AM


> I am almost inclined to go in the other direction though, and create
> skills that modify the effectiveness of other sorts of spells.

This is my thinking. I have required the use of the heal skill in
conjunction with the cure and healing spells. In general, I`d rather have
spells interact with the skill system. Pass without Trace might only
provide a modifier to Track DC. Difficulty could be increased by a base 20
+ caster level. A 12th level druid increases the DC by 32, and that makes
his party functionally impossible to track for two hours. Only the most
high level rangers can track them. But maybe that`s as it should be. Just
like with the Uncanny Dodge, always leaving the exception for a rogue four
levels higher.

Overall, I`ll make more use of the skills, not less. Its a preference of
mine.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Sir Justine]

Orginally posted by kgauck
This is my thinking. I have required the use of the heal skill in
conjunction with the cure and healing spells. In general, I`d rather have
spells interact with the skill system. Pass without Trace might only
provide a modifier to Track DC. Difficulty could be increased by a base 20
+ caster level. A 12th level druid increases the DC by 32, and that makes
his party functionally impossible to track for two hours. Only the most
high level rangers can track them. But maybe that`s as it should be. Just
like with the Uncanny Dodge, always leaving the exception for a rogue four
levels higher.


I agree with this. And I find your idea of linking skills with magic (I'm not sure if it was you, but I think it was, that said that invisibility should only give a bonus to hide checks) great! It's a very good way to make spellcasters less absolute than they are in D&D.
The only point I criticize Scry is that, as a rule, I think it's weak because it isn't connected with the other rules. As I said, only ONE skill for magic is something I don't agree with.
I will certainly work on linking skills to magic IMC.

[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by kgauck

I think Scry is a justifiable skill, and I`ll argue for its reservation.
I agree, that Scry is useful. The base thing is, that you can't use it for actively scrying, but for being scried too!!

IMO the "detect bloodline" skill should be used for being detected too. If you (as a blooded character) don't have any ranks in it, make a wisdom check to see, if your bloodline is detected. What do you think of this?

[Azrai]

Orginally posted by Ariadne
IMO the "detect bloodline" skill should be used for being detected too. If you (as a blooded character) don't have any ranks in it, make a wisdom check to see, if your bloodline is detected. What do you think of this?


Not a bad idea. this gives the bloodline a "highlander flair", even more than at the moment.

However I still think detect bloodline should be a feat, not a skill. compare it for example to "dragon blood" of the Kalamar Setting or similar feats in the Forgotten Realms Setting.

[geeman]

At 12:10 PM 9/10/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:

>IMO the "detect bloodline" skill should be used for being detected too. If
>you (as a blooded character) don`t have any ranks in it, make a wisdom
>check to see, if your bloodline is detected. What do you think of this?

The table in the original post included one factor "Target`s Detect
Bloodline skill." (The format of that table got screwed up since it`s hard
to reproduce these things sometimes.) You add the target`s ranks of Detect
Bloodline skill to the DC of an attempt to be detect. Detecting the
bloodline of a character with a major bloodline (base DC 15) who himself
had 8 ranks of Detect Bloodline would be DC 23.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 12:58 PM 9/10/2002 +0200, Azrai wrote:

>However I still think detect bloodline should be a feat, not a skill.
>compare it for example to "dragon blood" of the Kalamar Setting or similar
>feats in the Forgotten Realms Setting.

Could you give us the gist? I don`t have that particular text. How would
that feat work?

Gary

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sir Justine" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 9:28 PM


> The only point [where] I criticize Scry is that, as a rule, I
> think it`s weak because it isn`t connected with the other
> rules. As I said, only ONE skill for magic is something I
> don`t agree with. I will certainly work on linking skills to
> magic IMC.

One thing to do to expand Scry`s use is to use that skill for every
Clairaudience/ Clairvoyance, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, and Prying Eyes
attempt. How widely you spread that net is up to you. I`m not including
Detect and Locate spells where you just get a general sense that some object
or a source of evil is "over there". But, you could.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by geeman

Could you give us the gist? I don`t have that particular text. How would that feat work?

I don't have the particular text of the "dragon blood" feat in the moment too, but a character of my has it. As I remember:

You can take it only at first level. Prerequisites: Cha 13.

If you have this feat, make a search check DC 15 and you can detect magic at an item, you touch. If you make a search check DC 20, you can detect magic at an item, you are close at (you needn't to touch it).


The "detect bloodline" feat wouldn't be identical to this, but may be familiar.

[Azrai]

If you make a skill out of "bloodline detection", this thing becomes too normal - it would be a problem to make a dectection roll everytime you see people. on the other side this is exactly the "highlander" effect.

A feat is more unique, not every blooded will have it. like Ariadne pointed out, some kind of search DC might be possible.

[geeman]

At 03:07 PM 9/11/2002 +0200, Azrai wrote:

>If you make a skill out of "bloodline detection", this thing becomes too
>normal - it would be a problem to make a dectection roll everytime you see
>people. on the other side this is exactly the "highlander" effect.
>
>A feat is more unique, not every blooded will have it. like Ariadne
>pointed out, some kind of search DC might be possible.

One of the reasons I avoid using feats for this kind of thing is because
the mechanic of feats is rather static. A skill allows a character to
incrementally increase his talent, and in a case like this one I wanted to
have the DC increase to infinity based on the "base DC" which came from
bloodline strength and the distance at which the target of the check was at
(+5 per 10` of distance.) Skills are more versatile than feats in that
regard. Using a feat you can`t really do that unless you take most of the
functions of a skill and put them into the feat. Skills also allow a lot
more variation in ability and incremental improvement which is what I like
in a level based system like D&D.

If it is the rarity of the ability to detect a bloodline that is of concern
I would recommend making the skill itself accessible only after taking a
feat. Call it "Blood Sensitivity" or something like that and have its
function be that it makes Detect Bloodline a class skill for the
character. That way you get the best of both; a unique talent restricted
to those who take a feat, and the incremental skill mechanic with it`s
infinite range of DC possible.

Gary

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[kgauck]

Why can`t you take a feat that allows you to use the
skill? The skill could be exlcusive and not available
to any class. Take the feat, and the skill becomes a
class skill. Most feats actually use the skill system,
saving throws, or BAB, all of which are incrementally
increased with experience.

Its true that there is another kind of feat that removes
a restriction. This doesn`t mean that a feat can`t use
or advance the skill system, rather than just being an
auxillury ability system.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
> At 03:07 PM 9/11/2002 +0200, Azrai wrote:
>
> >If you make a skill out of "bloodline detection", this thing becomes too
> >normal - it would be a problem to make a dectection roll everytime you see
> >people. on the other side this is exactly the "highlander" effect.
> >
> >A feat is more unique, not every blooded will have it. like Ariadne
> >pointed out, some kind of search DC might be possible.
>
> One of the reasons I avoid using feats for this kind of thing is because
> the mechanic of feats is rather static. A skill allows a character to
> incrementally increase his talent, and in a case like this one I wanted to
> have the DC increase to infinity based on the "base DC" which came from
> bloodline strength and the distance at which the target of the check was at
> (+5 per 10` of distance.) Skills are more versatile than feats in that
> regard. Using a feat you can`t really do that unless you take most of the
> functions of a skill and put them into the feat. Skills also allow a lot
> more variation in ability and incremental improvement which is what I like
> in a level based system like D&D.
>
> If it is the rarity of the ability to detect a bloodline that is of concern
> I would recommend making the skill itself accessible only after taking a
> feat. Call it "Blood Sensitivity" or something like that and have its
> function be that it makes Detect Bloodline a class skill for the
> character. That way you get the best of both; a unique talent restricted
> to those who take a feat, and the incremental skill mechanic with it`s
> infinite range of DC possible.
>
> Gary
>
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[Sir Justine]

Orginally posted by kgauck

Why can`t you take a feat that allows you to use the
skill? The skill could be exlcusive and not available
to any class. Take the feat, and the skill becomes a
class skill. Most feats actually use the skill system,
saving throws, or BAB, all of which are incrementally
increased with experience.


Sure, that would be a good mechanic. It's not exactly the same thing, but is like the way Track works with Wilderness Lore. It just must be balanced - Something that you must spend a feat and skill points to do must be worth it.

[Ariadne]

Naturally making it a feat (as Track) might avoid a reflexive form of use (to "feel" being detected). But may be, non-trained blooded characters can use it too (as they can try to track footprints with a lower DC).

[geeman]

At 04:44 AM 9/12/2002 +0000, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Why can`t you take a feat that allows you to use the skill? The skill
>could be exlcusive and not available to any class. Take the feat, and the
>skill becomes a class skill.

Isn`t that what what I was suggesting? :)

In fact, I use several generic feats that do that kind of thing. The first
is called "Talent" and gives the character +2 on two different skills,
similar to Alertness in the PHB. Both those skills are then class skills
for the character no matter what class he levels up in. I don`t actually
use Alertness, though. "Talent" is a generic feat because I have a list of
paired skills that I assign the bonus to and I want to control those
pairs. One of the skills in question is generally a more useful skill than
the other, in an attempt to balance the effects of that feat and encourage
players to take on some of the less common skills. I also use a Skill
Emphasis, Skill Expertise, Skill Mastery series of feats, each of which
give a cumulative +3 to a particular skill. The skill is a class skill for
the PC from the point he takes Skill Emphasis.

When it comes to this Detect Bloodline skill, however, my plan is to give
access to the skill to all blooded characters, and require a feat for
non-blooded characters. This fits into a couple of concepts about how the
domain level works and generally seems like an interesting compromise. I
like some of the Force/Highlander-esque aspects of bloodline, one feature
of which would be sensitivity to the proximity of other blooded
characters. ("Do you feel that, brother? That is the quickening!" or "The
last time I felt that was in the presence of my old master.") Also, using
a Detect Bloodline skill as a basis we can extrapolate a few things about
how the BR domain level works--particularly spending RP. By including such
a skill as a class skill for all blooded characters we can see how they are
sensitive to the use of domain level bloodline effects and can, therefore,
tell when regents are performing domain actions. That not only makes them
aware of what other regents are doing in a domain, a feature of the domain
system that many people argue against, but also could be used to
rationalize them knowing how/where/when to direct their RP in a bidding war.

Other folks might not want to give access to the skill as "easily" as just
having a bloodline, so for them requiring a feat is an option. Of course,
it makes the skill equally useful for blooded and common characters, and I
think blooded characters should have an advantage but YMMV. It might also
be a good idea to come up with an independent feat (like "Bloodline
Sensitivity" that I suggested before) to allow access to Detect Bloodline
as a class skill because using feats like the ones I use not only makes the
skill a class skill but also gives a bonus to skill checks, which again
might not reflect how difficult some people want to the skill to be to
acquire. A special feat could also be used to deal with the
blooded/commoner issue in its descriptive text. It could make Detect
Bloodline a class skill for blooded characters and a cross class skill for
commoners, or whatever permutation the DM wanted to assign.

I am, however, planning on coming up with at least two and probably more
like five more "blood skills" that I will handle similarly to Detect
Bloodline. That is, blooded characters have access to them as class
skills, and commoners can take a feat to gain access. In the 3e bloodline
system I`ve been fiddling with this seems to make perfect sense, but I
could just be off my rocker. I`ll see if I can transcribe some of that for
commentary by various listers in the next couple of days. It`s a fairly
radical departure, so if the recent comments regarding the birthright.net
3e conversion are any indication I expect my little idiosyncratic version
will raise more than a few eyebrows.

Gary

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