Ancient history of the Vos

[Don Tancredo]

Hi everyone. I'm writing the ancient history of the Vos people since their arrival to Cerilia, and I would like to know the opinion of the community about some points.

Concerning the lands where they first settled, they were the last tribe arriving to Cerilia; maybe they settled the fertile lands in the northern Zhaïnge valley (there were plenty of empty land in the East, I see no reason for they going farther north). Then these would be the ancestral lands of the Vos people, before they were corrupted by Azrai. Only after Deismaar they would flee north, abandoning in Khinasi hands the Zhaïnge valley.

About the corruption of the Vos and the "gift of war", how could Azrai corrupt so many people (OK, he was a greater god, but SOMETHING should be made: ritual, corruption of the leaders, a slow process of brainwashing...) ?

And, last but not least, after Deismaar and the fleeing of the Vos to Vosgaard, what they did? Surely the strongest tsarevos created kingdoms using the blood powers. Which ones? Because in a warlike society, I can't imagine kingdoms lasting 1000 years as in Anuire or Brechtür; Rovnograd is the oldest city in Vosgaard, and is only about 400 years old. So there is a gap of 1000 years in the Vos history.

Any suggestions?

[soudhadies]

If I recall correctly one of the reasons that the Vos fell so easily to Azrai's influence was that they did originally go up to Vosgaard. Up in the frigid and hostile north their worship of mystical Vorynn was no longer relevent to their circumstances, and Azrai took advantage of this.

The fertile plain you are takling about is where present day Kozlovnyy is isn't it? It could be that the Vos tried to settle there originally, but were driven farther north by massive elven resistence (Kozlovnyy borders on three elven kingdoms).

[Azrai]

Orginally posted by Don Tancredo

Concerning the lands where they first settled, they were the last tribe arriving to Cerilia; maybe they settled the fertile lands in the northern Zhaïnge valley (there were plenty of empty land in the East, I see no reason for they going farther north). Then these would be the ancestral lands of the Vos people, before they were corrupted by Azrai. Only after Deismaar they would flee north, abandoning in Khinasi hands the Zhaïnge valley.

You are wrong with that. the Vos arrived first in Anuire and traveled northeast.




About the corruption of the Vos and the "gift of war", how could Azrai corrupt so many people (OK, he was a greater god, but SOMETHING should be made: ritual, corruption of the leaders, a slow process of brainwashing...) ?

Azrai corrupted the Vos with gifts and promised power. i think a strong and charismatic leader can corrupt that many people. also, the long trek made them weak in spirit and vulnerable to influence.



And, last but not least, after Deismaar and the fleeing of the Vos to Vosgaard, what they did? Surely the strongest tsarevos created kingdoms using the blood powers. Which ones? Because in a warlike society, I can't imagine kingdoms lasting 1000 years as in Anuire or Brechtür; Rovnograd is the oldest city in Vosgaard, and is only about 400 years old. So there is a gap of 1000 years in the Vos history.


wait a moment, it's not that easy to forge a kingdom. first you need a common culture (which is not possible if you have multiple clans), then you need a common writing. all this the vos did not have.

[Trithemius]

Don Tancredo:
> About the corruption of the Vos and the "gift of war", how
> could Azrai corrupt so many people (OK, he was a greater god,
> but SOMETHING should be made: ritual, corruption of the
> leaders, a slow process of brainwashing...) ?

Azrai also managed to seduce the sidhelien - a powerful, ancient, and
immortal race with extensive magical powers of their own and an
racial-wide resistance to charming-magics. Given this I am highly
skeptical of the use of magical rituals.

Gods, particular greater gods, should have no trouble doing massively
impressive things. I imagine also that being the embodiment of deceit
and persuasiveness helped Azrai as well. Vorynn himself probably also
assisted the process by not being the most open and understandable deity
around to begin with.

> And, last but not least, after Deismaar and the fleeing of
> the Vos to Vosgaard, what they did? Surely the strongest
> tsarevos created kingdoms using the blood powers. Which ones?
> Because in a warlike society, I can`t imagine kingdoms
> lasting 1000 years as in Anuire or Brechtür; Rovnograd is the
> oldest city in Vosgaard, and is only about 400 years old. So
> there is a gap of 1000 years in the Vos history.

I don`t have anything mazingly useful, but our own Western society had
big dark ages. It is reasonably to assume that the same thing could
happen in places with even less civilization and with perils that our
own ancestors never faced (like polar worms and goblins).

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 8:13 AM


> I imagine also that being the embodiment of deceit and
> persuasiveness helped Azrai as well. Vorynn himself
> probably also assisted the process by not being the most
> open and understandable deity around to begin with.

So I envision something like this:
Vos chief: "Azrai has promised us greatness and power."
Priest of Vorynn: "But the stone of seven cannot resist the hard rains."
Vos tribe: "Huh?"
PoV: "Does the crown eat while he sleeps?"
Vos tribe: "Huh?"
PoV <looks left and right mutters incomprehensibly>
Vos tribe: "Huh?"
PoV <plaintively>: The brook babbles for the three squirels, be a happy
squirel, do not squander your cache of nuts, but husband them wisely for a
terrible winter approaches."
Vos tribe <wanders off>

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Temujin]

Orginally posted by Bearcat
The fertile plain you are takling about is where present day Kozlovnyy is isn't it? It could be that the Vos tried to settle there originally, but were driven farther north by massive elven resistence (Kozlovnyy borders on three elven kingdoms).

One thing of note is that Kozlovnyy was a khinasi realm, and is still half-khinasi. It was conquered not that long ago by massive 'vos hordes' pouring south and taking over the kingdom. Since then, both race have more or less coexisted... The oldest vos kingdom is probably Molochev, and is the most civilized as well. It is probably where they settled, then began traveling north and eastward, facing greater hardships as they went further in(Varsks, goblins, polar worms, the winter etc...). It is likely here that they began being corrupted, because a god of magic is all well and nice, but can hardly turn the tide when you are overwhelmed by the local elements and danger. Azrai, on the contrary, offered might and power, something the vos needed not only to defeat the climate, but to drive the humanoids from their lands.

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-07-25 at 20:27, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

Don Tancredo wrote:
Hi everyone. I`m writing the ancient history of the Vos people since their arrival to Cerilia, and I would like to know the opinion of the community about some points.

Concerning the lands where they first settled, they were the last tribe arriving to Cerilia; maybe they settled the fertile lands in the northern Zhaïnge valley (there were plenty of empty land in the East, I see no reason for they going farther north). Then these would be the ancestral lands of the Vos people, before they were corrupted by Azrai. Only after Deismaar they would flee north, abandoning in Khinasi hands the Zhaïnge valley.

About the corruption of the Vos and the "gift of war", how could Azrai corrupt so many people (OK, he was a greater god, but SOMETHING should be made: ritual, corruption of the leaders, a slow process of brainwashing...) ?

And, last but not least, after Deismaar and the fleeing of the Vos to Vosgaard, what they did? Surely the strongest tsarevos created kingdoms using the blood powers. Which ones? Because in a warlike society, I can`t imagine kingdoms lasting 1000 years as in Anuire or Brechtür; Rovnograd is the oldest city in Vosgaard, and is only about 400 years old. So there is a gap of 1000 years in the Vos history.

Any suggestions?

Somewhere along the way (or perhaps from the very beginning) Vos society
became dominated by the priest caste. The priests decide which warriors
are fit to rule, the priests grant this warrior a bloodline for him to
do so. Reading between the lines (ToHW), a realm regent generally does
not have the decision making power to choose an heir to pass his realm
and bloodline to. All political systems are corrupt to a greater or
lesser extent, and the Vos won`t be any different. Having said that,
it`s certainly rule that near relatives of an incumbent leader in such
societies have a leg up (an advantage) in being selected as the next
leader - but it`s equally true that if they are unpopular choices (or
deformed/ugly e.g.) they are passed over without them having a
legitimate claim.

The powerful influence wielded by the priest group in this society would
probably have its origins in pre-Deismaar times when the priests of
Azrai ruled. One assumes here that the priests of Azrai were more
coherent in organization - and as such the "Empire of the Vos" was not a
landed realm, but a domination of one faith over an entire people
(tribe). Equate this with (say) the domain of the faith(s) of Erik in
Rjurik in Cerilia modern - except that this Vos faith had a much greater
say in the ruling and government of the people. (perhaps they were/are
the courts, the lawmakers, with the war leaders simply lieutenants -
extensions of temple power)

Post-Deismaar, the greatest Vos warriors and priests are chosen to be
the new gods in place of Azrai - and this dilution of power, especially
with so many awnsheghlien created as well, brings about contention and
strife at the very highest level. Indeed Belinik`s portfolio and his
priests encourage contention in the ranks in order to determine the
"strongest" in his favor. This kind of society produces some strong
leaders but poor unity (with some exceptions). The good news is that it
very very rarely produces poor leaders. Still unification of such
societies is so rare that they are usually wiped out by a more organized
one over time. (but enough earth history - this is Cerilia!)

Both Vos main religions are very insular and restrictive. One can`t just
rock up to the temple and join up as a priest of Belinik for example.
Kriesha limits her priesthood to women. This is an important point given
that the role of women outside the warrior caste in Vos society seems
very limited. Building a society around the dynamics of coexistence of
these two religions and their place in, and influence on Vos society is
central to an understanding of Vos disunity, and their relative
situation with respect to the other human cultures in Cerilia.

One further anthropological aspect that is gaining much acceptance these
days in the ready availability of resources and their effects on the
development of cultures. Mankind originated in central Africa yet this
continent does not dominate today. The Australian aborigines were the
first human culture to use stone tools and yet never developed or even
adopted many more advanced ideas (like pottery e.g.). So perhaps, the
food situation in Vosgaard - less land suitable for agrarian
development, the restriction of climate and weather, tribal rather than
nomadic - but perhaps semi-nomadic is suggested by the relationship to
Petcheniks (?spelling?), where a tribe would settle one place for a time
(perhaps several years) then move elsewhere for a while as the resources
of the area grew insufficient. Such a society doesn`t form a strong bond
to a particular `place`, or identify with `this land is ours` except in
a temporary way, thus the forming of nations and empires is difficult -
except as meetings of the mind and culture (again through religion
and/or language).

Well, you asked for ideas!



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[Trithemius]

Kenneth:
> So I envision something like this:
> Vos chief: "Azrai has promised us greatness and power."
> Priest of Vorynn: "But the stone of seven cannot resist the
> hard rains." Vos tribe: "Huh?"
> PoV: "Does the crown eat while he sleeps?"
> Vos tribe: "Huh?"
> PoV <looks left and right mutters incomprehensibly>
> Vos tribe: "Huh?"
> PoV <plaintively>: The brook babbles for the three squirels,
> be a happy squirel, do not squander your cache of nuts, but
> husband them wisely for a terrible winter approaches." Vos
> tribe <wanders off>

Sounds bang on to me Kenneth :)

I also suspect that being in a nasty frozen hell-hole meant that
strength and powers of war seemed more useful that mystical
introspection.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Don Tancredo]

Orginally posted by Temujin


Orginally posted by Bearcat
The fertile plain you are takling about is where present day Kozlovnyy is isn't it? It could be that the Vos tried to settle there originally, but were driven farther north by massive elven resistence (Kozlovnyy borders on three elven kingdoms).

One thing of note is that Kozlovnyy was a khinasi realm, and is still half-khinasi. It was conquered not that long ago by massive 'vos hordes' pouring south and taking over the kingdom. Since then, both race have more or less coexisted... The oldest vos kingdom is probably Molochev, and is the most civilized as well. It is probably where they settled, then began traveling north and eastward, facing greater hardships as they went further in(Varsks, goblins, polar worms, the winter etc...). It is likely here that they began being corrupted, because a god of magic is all well and nice, but can hardly turn the tide when you are overwhelmed by the local elements and danger. Azrai, on the contrary, offered might and power, something the vos needed not only to defeat the climate, but to drive the humanoids from their lands.

Well, I didn't expect so much debating... It seems that there is a consensus in the idea of the Vos being corrupted after their settlement in Cerilia. My idea is that of course they came first to Anuire, but being the last of the Five Tribes to arrive, they found the land already occupied by Anuireans and Elves, and maybe they even fought with them. As they were already worshippers of Vorynn, they were less warlike that the Anuireans and they had to flee East. East are the arid lands of the Khinasi, but the more fertile areas (the coasts and river valleys) were also occupied, by the Basarji. So the Vos had to march further East and up the Zhaïnge (the natural passage for coming to Vosgaard) until finally they settled in modern Kozlovnyy, Molochev and southern Kal Kalathor, lands that rapidly became crowded. With elves East and west and Basarji on the south, the only way to expand was the frozen north, with a hostile climate, goblins, wolves, and worse. This could give the Vos a desire of revenge upon the other peoples that forced them so far into a hostile land, and this desire (and the growing hardships of everyday life) could explain the downfall of Vorynn’s priests and the rising of the cult of Azrai.

After Deismaar, the Vos as a people were nearly destroyed and had to flee further north, to northern Vosgaard. Maybe you are right, and for nearly 1000 years they only were nomadic tribes fighting among themselves, with the priests of Belinik encouraging this way of life. I think the church of Belinik is then at least partially responsible of this cultural stagnament; maybe in modern Vosgaard the only hope for the Vos to create durable states is rejecting the cult of Belinik and return to Lirovka (as they have done partially in Rovninodensk).Of course they can unite under the banners of another Basil Zariyatam and go conquer their neighbors’lands, but surely such attempt would be short-lived, at least as an unified entity. And personally I don’t like the idea of the “evil, short-minded, and barbaric Russian guys”; of course is what they are in present-day Cerilia, but maybe they could have a second chance in the future and become something more that hack’n slash for PC.

[A_dark]

Azrai was the god of knowledge and travelled the lands of Aduria occupied by the Vos as a teacher and with this teaching he corrupted them. The Viper's Eye was instrumental in this. He first made the Lost and they dominated the rest of the chieftain including the weaklings of Vorynn. Really now, can a priest battle the Lost? :) The first human mages? I don't think so. (Book of Priestcraft, Viper's Eye description)

Azrai was at first a god of knowledge and pride. Knowledge is power, power corrupts, Knowledge is not that far from Magic... Corrupting the Vos who revered Voryn was not such a difficult task :)

The Vos could not have occupied the Khinasi lands, cos basically they were occupied by the Masetians :) Look at the back of the Atlas of Cerilia to see how they moved and where they settled. As it was said Kozlovny was conquered much later and Kal Kalathor was occupied by goblins... Still is. It is their Great Khanate :P

[Temujin]

I like what you brought up A_dark. Sounds very simple yet plausible.

[A_dark]

Glad to help :)

Also, not all Vos are barbarians. There are some notable excpetions. Kozlovny has been civilised by the Khinasi and it has Lerme as state religion, and Belinik is outlawed and there is also Zoloskaya the only Vos kingdom loyal to Ruornil in Cerilia.

[Don Tancredo]

So A_dark you think:

1)The Vos were corrupted in Aduria, not in Cerilia. This is not what the Atlas of Cerilia says.

2) Corrupting a people who revered a knowledge and magic god is easy; OK, I agree with this. Maybe the Lost, in their search of more knowledge and power, were the first to become corrupted among the Vos, and from them sprang the cult to Azrai. This is another interesting point. By the way, in which page of the Book of Priestcraft is the history of the Viper’s Eye?

3)In the back cover of the Atlas of Cerilia, there is no mark of Masetian (or Basarji) occupation in northern Kozlovnyy, only in the coasts; also it is said Kozlovnyy was the Khinasi realm of Medeci until invaded 328 years ago, but is not said when this territory was occupied by the Khinasi. Political boundaries and peoples were, at the time before Deismaar, more volatile than the modern ones, and why not the Vos could occupy some lands later considered as part of Khinasi? But well, lacking an official explanation, this is an idea as good as any other.

And in the post-Deismaar chaos and continual fight for survival in the frozen wastes, the Vos disappeared of history for nearly 1000 years ( until the invasion of Medeci, the battle of Lake Ladan, etc.) OK, I agree, less work for me.

[A_dark]

Page 121 is the Viper's Eye description and in there it says that the Vos corruption started in Aduria. This Vos corruption and the emergence of the Lost was what made the tribes flee Aduria in the first place. The Lost and Azrai's corruption followed the Vos in Cerilia where he completed the corruption and went on with the elves as well.