Serving 2 deities [Archive]

kgauck

07-24-2002, 12:06 AM

Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:14 PM
Azrai wrote:
>
> It should not be possible for a priest to serve two different gods.
> priestcraft means complete involvement to one specific ethos and
> god. in all D&D ever published it was never allowed to do it. the
> kalamar setting has recently invented the possibility to serve an
> alignement and not a specific god.

You could serve alignment in 2e according to the Complete Book of Priests.

I would allow worship of two gods if their goals were compatable and they
were allied. A priest who worshiped Erik and Avani would be acceptable to
me. One faith in Cerilia already combines the worship of Ruornil and Erik
I frequently put priests of one god in temples of allied gods. Temples of
Haelyn use priests of Cuiraecen as heralds.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Lord Eldred

07-24-2002, 01:04 AM

The explanation for this character is that she is a dwarf who began life believing in Moradin and therefore was a priest of Moradin. However, she was thrust into being an ambassador to the United Provinces of Haelyn from Baruk-Azhik. There she met the Abbess Allesandra who taught her about the greatness of Haelyn. The dwarf saw that both Moradin and Haelyn were great and started praying to them both. To the dwarves she preaches about Moradin and to the humans she preaches about Haelyn spreading the faith of both. She has even gotten some humans interested in Moradin but no dwarfs have shown an interest in Haelyn. In fact many of the dwarves frown on her praying to a human god and think she should lose her thrown.

By the way, all the rules are adaptable to what works for your campaign. So AZRAI doesn't like, then don't allow it to happen in your campaign.

blitzmacher

07-24-2002, 02:47 AM

I think it is possible to be a priest of different gods. I believe in ancient medievil times that people would pray to the earth god for good crops, and the war god for victory in battle. I think modern thinking would not allow this, being raised with the one god only religions, and all others are the devil. Of course that idea was started in the midevil times as well. I also just started a BR campaign using the RuneQuest rules system which seems to be working out quite well, I'm starting the group out in the King of the Giatdowns adventure. In the RQ rules though they allow priests of different gods, as long as they are not in oppositional faiths.

Ariadne

07-24-2002, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by kgauck
I would allow worship of two gods if their goals were compatable and they
were allied. A priest who worshiped Erik and Avani would be acceptable to
me. One faith in Cerilia already combines the worship of Ruornil and Erik
I frequently put priests of one god in temples of allied gods. Temples of
Haelyn use priests of Cuiraecen as heralds.
This might be, but allied churches doesn't mean the worship of two different gods. A priest of Cuiraécen is a priest of Cuiraécen, even if he accepts Cuiraécens father Haelyn and his mother Nesirie. The priest of Cuiraécen might even accept an order of a Haelyn highpriest, but of respect, not of worship!

The idea of a whole pantheon worship is accepted in several campaigns, but in the Birthright rulebook a priest must coose a specific god! He gets the specific powers of his religion then. If he would worship two different gods, he would be something like a PHB standard cleric without any special powers...

Azrai

07-24-2002, 12:18 PM

@kgauck
You can not compare anything from the CBoPriests to the Birthright setting. CBoPriests only contained models for specific campaign worlds.

@blitzmacher
you also cannot compare ancient medievil times to the birthright campaign. it's fantasy, the gods are directly involved.

The Book of Priestcraft clearly shows that a priest can only serve one god and recieve spells from only one god.

there is no!! compaign world ever published that allows to serve two gods (to repeat myself).

Emerald Greybeard

07-24-2002, 12:43 PM

Orginally posted by Ariadne

The idea of a whole pantheon worship is accepted in several campaigns, but in the Birthright rulebook a priest must coose a specific god! He gets the specific powers of his religion then. If he would worship two different gods, he would be something like a PHB standard cleric without any special powers...

Again, that all depends on the DM and how he chooses to handle the rules governing his world. It does add an intersting flavor to the storyline though. In alot of good stories, you have someone realizing that there are different paths to be traveled other than the comfortable path that everyone has taken for centuries. If that person is strong willed and determined to bring the world just a little closer together, amazing things can happen. Sometimes it just takes an idea planted in enough peoples ear to get them to try something new. Of course, her theory is that the gods permit this to happen because she is trying to gain more followers for each deity. I'm sure Haelyn would be tickled if she managed to get the entire dwarven nation to, at the very least, acknowledge his power. Emerald believes that if a god is all about having many many followers, then the more the merrier and maybe, just maybe, one day, the humans and dwarves (and maybe those....... elves) can stand side by side and unite to fight the disease of evil that plaques the land. Of course, the dwarves are pretty stubborn, but her father made an alliance with the United Provinces of Haelyn and right now, Baruk Azhik is getting thier butts saved from borrowed forces of the UPofH. So, maybe they will start to see the power of Haelyn and start to gain a little interest.

If you haven't noticed, she's a little passionate about all of this.

Emerald Greybeard

07-24-2002, 01:05 PM

Orginally posted by Azrai

The Book of Priestcraft clearly shows that a priest can only serve one god and recieve spells from only one god.

there is no!! compaign world ever published that allows to serve two gods (to repeat myself).

The DM can allow whatever he chooses into his world. You can't sit there and tell me that he can't. Are the rules police going to break down our groups door and throw Lord Eldred in jail because he chooses to have a little creative flavor in his campaign? I think not. It's not fair to other DM's to sit there and state the rules say this and the rules say that and that they are wrong if they deviate!

RPG's were not designed to be followed to every single letter of the rulebook. It's all foundation to be built on my friend, not concrete rules to be adhered to with no deviation.

Don't forget DM's perrogative. The biggest rule is to have fun! If the campaign is full of interesting elements such as the worship of 2 gods, and the players enjoy it, then great! So be be it!

If you chose not to allow it your world, nobody says you have to.

All I am saying here is don't start spouting out what rulebooks say and implying that it is fundamentally wrong to play the way we do. We enjoy how we play and the houserules we have established and we will continue playing that way.

Lord Eldred

07-24-2002, 02:07 PM

Well said Emerald but I warned you that people would say that you can't worship two gods.

I honestly think no rulebook in any system allowed it because the writers are stuck in their monotheistic thinking.

By the way Azrai just because no one thought of allowing it before in a campaign world doen't necessarily mean that is the right way to play.

soudhadies

07-24-2002, 09:58 PM

I don't think that the question is whether or not a person can worship more than one god. After all, that is what polytheism is all about. The question that should be asked is whether or not a priest can fully serve more than one deity. Especially in such structured and ordered religions as those of two gods of rulership and order. Being a priest to a deity and fulfilling all doctrinal requirements, ceremonies, etc, is a full time job. Unless the deities decide to be lenient on the poor priest they could wear her to the bone.

As for the alignment worship thing, its much older than the complete book of priests, I think it was in the original D&D because the authors were somewhat queasy about dealing with polytheism (isn't that what that whole imortals thing was about too?)

blitzmacher

07-24-2002, 11:50 PM

you also cannot compare ancient medievil times to the birthright campaign. it's fantasy, the gods are directly involved.
-------------------------------------------------------------

What do you mean? Even the makers themselves use realworld history in making a fantasy game. In many cultures they believed the gods were directly involved with their lives.
--------------------------------------------------------------

I honestly think no rulebook in any system allowed it because the writers are stuck in their monotheistic thinking.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I think you may be right LE. I just looked through my RuneQuest book, and it says that one person can be full worshipers of multiple religions, but the responsibility of being a priest requires him to give at least 90% of his time time his god. Therefore making it impossible to be a priest of two gods. Although one could be a priest in one and a believer in a couple more, as long as they're allied gods. But as far as your campaign goes, do what you want as long as everyone is having fun right.

Lord Eldred

07-25-2002, 02:19 AM

I don't get it. If a person can rule over more than one holding and be pulled in multiple directions, why couldn't a priest serve two gods? It is like I give 100% to both my family and my job and I try to make sure neither suffer. Queen Emerald gives 100% to both gods while ruling her country. It is alot but that is what lieutenants and other staff are for...

Peter Lubke

07-25-2002, 02:27 AM

On Thu, 2002-07-25 at 00:07, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

Lord Eldred wrote:
Well said Emerald but I warned you that people would say that you can`t worship two gods.

I honestly think no rulebook in any system allowed it because the writers are stuck in their monotheistic thinking.

By the way Azrai just because no one thought of allowing it before in a campaign world doen`t necessarily mean that is the right way to play.

I think a non-priest might commonly hedge his/her bets with the
"worship" of more than one god. A priest is slightly more devoted,
although in some benign pantheons (even BR in the case of
Belinik/Kriesha/Azrai) a priest admitting to "belief/homage" of more
than one deity is entirely possible, although the fact of "being a
priest of X" is a more restrictive relationship. Even if a character
could claim to be a priest of more than one god, the relationship w.r.t.
the granting of spells and powers etc is not one that is the choice of
the character - but the choice of the gods.

From a game mechanics point of view, allowing such would leave the
system open to min/max`ing in a big way, rather than being strictly
mono-theistic in attitude/thinking. From a godly thinking point of view,
there are good reasons for a particular god claiming a believer - and
being jealous (in the strict sense of the word) of other claims - to the
point where only one god can claim the character at any time. Certainly,
(schizophrenic characters notwithstanding) from a game point of view
switching back and forth is undesirable. However a priest may belong to
the hierarchy of one faith (and genuinely still "follow/believe/pay
homage to" the god of that faith, yet still draw their powers from
another god (although you would have to consider them outside any faith
of that god - to be a singleton so to speak). Infiltration of one faith
by another would also be possible.

The mundane aspects of a faith, e.g. observation of holy rituals,
knowledge of holy days events (including all the old 2e NWP Religion) ,
ability to wear armor, use of weapons etc would be of the faith belonged
to (or in the case of an infiltrator, the least common denominator of
the two faiths).

Essentially then, even in a situation where ALL of a pantheon are
routinely `worshiped` by the entire populace (which includes the
priests), a single god will tend to bestow their favors to their
favorites respecting the rights/wishes of the other gods in this matter
-- not withstanding their efforts to `steal` the best of them away - but
such would represent a change of faith rather than dual-faith.

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kgauck

07-25-2002, 02:59 AM

Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:19 PM
Lord Eldred wrote:
> I don`t get it. If a person can rule over more than one holding and be
> pulled in multiple directions, why couldn`t a priest serve two gods? It
> is like I give 100% to both my family and my job and I try to make
> sure neither suffer. Queen Emerald gives 100% to both gods while
> ruling her country. It is alot but that is what lieutenants and other
staff
> are for...

Most of the rest of us only have 100% to work with. Its only those of you
under the effects of a permenant Haste spell that can give twice that.

AFAIC, being able to serve both gods is only possible when the gods want it
to be possible. Both Eric and Avani might be content with prayers and
cerimonies that celibrate both the sun and nature. Rather than giving 100%
to your job and your family, its more like running a day-care out of your
home for a living.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Peter Lubke

07-25-2002, 04:24 AM

On Thu, 2002-07-25 at 12:19, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

Lord Eldred wrote:
I don`t get it. If a person can rule over more than one holding and be
pulled in multiple directions, why couldn`t a priest serve two gods? It
is like I give 100% to both my family and my job and I try to make sure
neither suffer. Queen Emerald gives 100% to both gods while ruling her
country. It is alot but that is what lieutenants and other staff are
for...

Let me use your analogy.
If providing for your family was not an issue, (i.e. whether you work or
not they will be provided for no matter what they need or desire), would
spending more time with your family be beneficial to them? Would they
benefit from you being more available to them? Could you give more value
to them?

If so, then you are not giving 100% to your family unconditionally. You
are doing so within the constraints that your job imposes (even though
in doing your job you meet some of the needs and desires of your family
- you so so indirectly).

On the one hand:
Now depending on your theology viewpoint, gods can be jealous - they can
require 100% from their chosen and favored priests. ("I am the Lord your
God, thou shalt have no other gods before me." -- what about after?, --
what does the god that comes after think? etc etc) (Azrai for sure at
least and note the use of the personal `thou` - in the intimate form -
this god personally connects with his subjects - all of them not just
the priests - makes you wonder eh?)

And on the other hand:
Of course, an interpretation of divine behavior could be that a god is
prepared to accept 20% instead of 100%. This however doesn`t seem to be
the case in the BR world, at least in the case of the more `major` gods.
But Laerme as one example, could qualify.

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Lord Eldred

07-25-2002, 07:45 PM

I think the case for Emerald is that her country is being overtaking by Orogs. The dwarves are losing. Moradin feels bad. Sends them Emerald who has made friends with humans who are committed to Haelyn. Moradin goes to Haelyn and says how about we get our dwarves and humans together to defeat the Orogs and both nations will prosper. Haelyn asks what is in it for him and Moradin offers to share the priestess Emerald and allow the teachings of Haelyn in his country if the teachings of Moradin are allowed in Haelyn's. It is a situation that both benefit from...

Ariadne

07-26-2002, 10:28 AM

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Queen Emerald gives 100% to both gods while ruling her country.
I ask me, how Emerald does it. Has she two shrines standing together? Flips she a coin, if praying in the morning? In my oppinion she can't pray to one god and don't anger the other. O.K., it might be usefull to have a second deity at hand, but I don't think this can go for long until she is stripped from spells by both!

Why Emerald wanted truly to switch gods? An allied priest of Haelyn would fill the hole, I think. They can fight together against orogs, but neither would anger his deity.

Azrai

07-26-2002, 10:59 AM

I think there is a difference between an allience between two gods and
the facts, that a priest serves a god. emerald could teach haelyns dogma
in the dwarven lands - but she would still pray to Moradin.

A_dark

07-26-2002, 01:22 PM

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

I think the case for Emerald is that her country is being overtaking by Orogs. The dwarves are losing. Moradin feels bad. Sends them Emerald who has made friends with humans who are committed to Haelyn. Moradin goes to Haelyn and says how about we get our dwarves and humans together to defeat the Orogs and both nations will prosper. Haelyn asks what is in it for him and Moradin offers to share the priestess Emerald and allow the teachings of Haelyn in his country if the teachings of Moradin are allowed in Haelyn's. It is a situation that both benefit from...

First of all I don't see how Haelyn would ask for a reward in order to help a priestess of fellow god of order and law and good against the ecroachment of a foul greenskinned underground dwelling race. Haelyn should not have asked for a reward in order to help defend a realm against the evil orogs.

Secondly, if Haelyn had acted in such manner, I fail to see how Moradi would not have been actually offended. There he is a god of law and Justice askign for help from another god of Law and Justice and Haelyn asks for a reward? Pretty unselfless (...or whatever the word is) and if I were Moradin, I would have started to question the motivations of this human god that wants a payment for protecting the innocents against the green menace.

Thirdly, I really cannot imagine how the humans would begin to value the virtues of polishing stones or the joy of working in a mine or the fullfilment of getting boiled in a furnace making metal trinkets just for the sake of it. Cos that is what Moradin wants his followers and moreover his priests to do. He wants them to work in a mine. One of their daily activities would be to work in a mine, polish a stone, and do stuff like that.

Likewise, I fail to see how the dwarves would appreciate knowing the nomenclature of the humans, etiquette towards all the hierarchy of the Empire of Roele, or how to ride a horse or even how to be a paladin.

The fact that they are both gods of good and law, does not mean that their followers can swap. It is not an accident that they are both patrons of a specific race. What Moradin says would sound chinese to any human and what haelyn says would sound chinese to any dwarf. In my opinion, you would not even be able to introduce nonhuman deities to human lands, let alone have a priest of Moradin become a priest of Haelyn as well.

Otherwise, perhaps you should allow a temple of Kartathok make a move and start to gather followers in your UpH... Would a human follow kartathok? I do not want to believe that he would...

Emerald Greybeard

07-26-2002, 01:28 PM

*I ask me, how Emerald does it. Has she two shrines standing together? *

As a matter of fact, she has a couple temple to each god in Baruk Azhik. So in a way, the answer to your question is yes

*In my oppinion she can't pray to one god and don't anger the other.*

If they made an agreement, then this becomes an irrelevant point.

*I think there is a difference between an allience between two gods and the facts, that a priest serves a god. emerald could teach haelyns dogma in the dwarven lands - but she would still pray to Moradin.*

Tell me, what is the difference between teaching Haelyns dogma and serving? Isn't the most basic function of a priest teaching people about a god? This is part of serving that god. Isn't the point to spread the word and attempt to get people to follow/believe in a particular god? How does one accomplish this task? One accomplishes this by teachin which is a VERY big part of serving that god.

If Moradin is the father of the dwarves, wouldn't it stand to reason that he is dedicated to protecting his children at any cost from annihilation? Who would serve him if all the dwarves died a the hands of the Orogs? Not the Orogs!

You both speak of jealousy and anger between the 2 gods. Why would all the jealousy and anger occur if they each had something to gain? We're not talking about a standard run of the mill priest teaching the word of thier god as they pass travellers or preach at the local shrine. We are talking about the Queen of the dwarves who is well travelled and has powerful friends. That gives each god leverage in all kinds areas that would otherwise be completely inaccessible to them.

As far as praying, no coin is flipped. I pray to each god and ask them for forgiveness and to allow me to continue to serve them as an agent of thier divine greatness. Of course the first prayer is to Moradin immediatly followed by a prayer to Haelyn.

Not mention, as a Warpreist, she is very effective in fighting the enemies of each god (which happen to be pretty similiar) so there is another bonus for them to share.

Sorry, I don't see an issue here.

Emerald Greybeard

07-26-2002, 01:31 PM

Sorry about the incosistency in the tenses here. I keep slipping into character as I am defending her case. :)

Emerald Greybeard

07-26-2002, 01:40 PM

Orginally posted by A_dark

Thirdly, I really cannot imagine how the humans would begin to value the virtues of polishing stones or the joy of working in a mine or the fullfilment of getting boiled in a furnace making metal trinkets just for the sake of it. Cos that is what Moradin wants his followers and moreover his priests to do. He wants them to work in a mine. One of their daily activities would be to work in a mine, polish a stone, and do stuff like that.

Where the heck did you dig that up from? I cannot find a single reference to Moradin that supports that claim.

Sellenus

07-26-2002, 07:09 PM

I see no reason Emerald could not pray to/serve both.

But are we talking about roleplaying, or game mechanics?

As far as roleplaying (the only thing that matters IMO) Emerald has her reasons for feel justified in praying to both. If both Gods favor her it is because THEY chose to. Why they chose to doesn't matter, I'm sure they worked it out on their Godly Domain Turn. If it adds flavor and benefits the game without overbalancing, then I'd allow it...

A_dark

07-26-2002, 11:39 PM

Moradin is the patron of the Gods. I think one of his nicknames is the Forger.... He created the dwarves in his forge.... If the dwarves are happy when the dig stuff and live underground and build mines, it is because of their religion mainly. Does nto religion affect the follower's way of life? It does. Introducing Moradin to humans and Haelyn to dwarves should be as hard as introducing Kartathok to humans and Maglubiyet to dwarves.

Ariadne

07-28-2002, 01:27 PM

Orginally posted by Emerald Greybeard

As far as praying, no coin is flipped. I pray to each god and ask them for forgiveness and to allow me to continue to serve them as an agent of thier divine greatness. Of course the first prayer is to Moradin immediatly followed by a prayer to Haelyn.

Oh yes, so you pray the double time of normal? (max. of 16 hours [2nd Edition] or 2 hours [3rd edition]) Or how does you manage this?

Azrai

07-28-2002, 10:15 PM

I still think serving two gods violates the principle D&D game mechanics.

Tell me, what is the difference between teaching Haelyns dogma and serving? Isn't the most basic function of a priest teaching people about a god? This is part of serving that god. Isn't the point to spread the word and attempt to get people to follow/believe in a particular god? How does one accomplish this task? One accomplishes this by teachin which is a VERY big part of serving that god.

No, teaching is different than serving. Serving means:
clerics devote themselves to a cause, concept and a devine force !!!

You both speak of jealousy and anger between the 2 gods. Why would all the jealousy and anger occur if they each had something to gain? ...

these are gods, your are the servant. you would not be that important to underline this statement. this might only be true for "world changing events".

Azrai

07-28-2002, 10:22 PM

Again, that all depends on the DM and how he chooses to handle the rules governing his world.

No, this is a wrong way to handle things. the principle game mechanics should not be changed in the game.
otherwise we would have axt-swinging magic users with free weapon specialisations or green elephants with sorcerer power.

nothing against house-rules if they make sense or if they are a nice addition to the game.

If I would be moradin and you are praying to other gods i would strip the hell out of you...

Ariadne

07-29-2002, 09:12 AM

Orginally posted by Azrai
otherwise we would have axt-swinging magic users with free weapon specialisations or green elephants with sorcerer power.

Nice comment! Do you have something against green elephants with sorcerer powers? May be this would be a good new monster ;) !

Emerald Greybeard

07-29-2002, 12:34 PM

Orginally posted by Azrai

Again, that all depends on the DM and how he chooses to handle the rules governing his world.

No, this is a wrong way to handle things. the principle game mechanics should not be changed in the game.
otherwise we would have axt-swinging magic users with free weapon specialisations or green elephants with sorcerer power.

nothing against house-rules if they make sense or if they are a nice addition to the game.

If I would be moradin and you are praying to other gods i would strip the hell out of you...

Your killing me here. You need to dig out the first D&D rulebook and every PHB following that, look at teh beginning where it says these are GUIDELINES and the other part where it says to modify these rules to fit your needs. So I say to you again,

NO, this is absolutly NOT the WRONG way to handle things. This is the way WE handle it and we happen to to like it. I would never play in any campaign you run because I would hate to have to memorize every single rule of the PHB and have to interrupt play every 10 seconds to verify a rule.

I used to play with a DM that had no premade adventure, never had a DM's guide at teh table, and didn't allow PHB's during gameplay. He winged the entire adventure and made it up as we went. If someone disputed something, it was usually handled with a good reason WHY it was or was not. If a rule didn't fit, he either disregarded it or changed it. We had alot of fun.

Please explain to me why you feel that we are wrong. And quoting the rules and saying "because it clearly states..." because that's not answering my question. Without quoting any rules or refering to any rulebooks or guides, tell me why we cannot bend the rules to allow my character to play having 2 deities if it makes for a great storyline and makes the game really fun.

I don't have a PHB with me right now because I am at work, but I will follow up with the exact verbage and page that I refered to about tailoring the rules to fit your needs, which is one of the first rules and has carried over from edition to edition along with with the first and most important rule in the game, have fun.

Azrai

07-29-2002, 01:58 PM

...if it makes for a great storyline and makes the game really fun.

You can make the game fun AND realistic if you do not SERVE to different gods but if you just TEACH the dogma of both gods. to me it seems more like personal gaining (more domain powers) than fun. you haven't explained the exact details of memorizing, just curious.

I would never play in any campaign you run because I would hate to have to memorize every single rule of the PHB and have to interrupt play every 10 seconds

As I said before: I 'am open minded with house-rules I am no rule lawyer. but in 15 years of gaming I never met anyone who wanted to pray to two different gods at one time.

by the way, could it be that Lord Eldred is your Game Master and you lulled him with a nice dwarven charm spell ;)

geeman

07-29-2002, 02:26 PM

At 03:58 PM 7/29/2002 +0200, Azrai wrote:

>As I said before: I `am open minded with house-rules I am no rule lawyer.
>but in 15 years of gaming I never met anyone who wanted to pray to two
>different gods at one time.

I do it all the time. Sometimes I throw in a couple saints and dead
relatives into the mix at which I direct my prayers, just to keep things
lively.

Gary

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Emerald Greybeard

07-29-2002, 03:21 PM

Orginally posted by Azrai

by the way, could it be that Lord Eldred is your Game Master and you lulled him with a nice dwarven charm spell ;)

Ssshhhhhh... I didn't tell him about that..... :)

Orginally posted by Azrai

To me it seems more like personal gaining (more domain powers) than fun. you haven't explained the exact details of memorizing, just curious.

ok, fair enough, I didn't explain what I did with the domain powers. I only have the domain that they both share with my Cleric class. I also have the War priest class and only have 2 domains from that. If I were to take all domains from everything, I would have powers from something like 6 domains. Instead, I only have the 3. I only have the domains that the 2 gods share and not any of the domains they have seperatly. I only have the spells, nothing of the abilities each one grants. I don't have any of my information handy right now, but I didn't just assume all the benefits of serving a god. I didn't think that would be reasonable or fair. So yes, there was a trade-off for it.

for example, as she gains levels in her Warpriest class, she gets to draw from all these extra domains like domination, War, and good and such. Well, Moradin and Healyn share Good and War, but not Domination. I think Haelyn has Domination but not Moradin so I don't use Domination but I do draw from Good and War. Now that info may be totally wrong, since I don't have any info in front of me, but it still makes the point.

The other thing is that I think Haelyn grants his clerics Holy Smite once a day or something along those lines, again, I don't have that ability.

Please don't rip me apart if I bungled all the spells and abilities up, I am going off bad memory and little caffeine.

Since we limited my available domains and no special abilities, My prayer time is not increased all that significantly. I only pray for spells in the shared domains. I don't have to worry about praying for special abilities and individual domain powers.

Azrai

07-29-2002, 09:48 PM

Ok, maybe this is fair enough. :)

A_dark

07-29-2002, 10:08 PM

But I still have my arguments.

For crying outloud, Moradin's symbol is the anvil and hammer, you know many people that would find that attractive? Dwarves would but humans? nah

Likewise the underground dwelling dwarves would find the sun on haelyn's symbol something strange for a god to have on his symbol....

But ultimately it is your DM's choice I suppose. I just spoke my mind cos basically we were asked to speak our minds and if your DM was so sure about it, he would not really seek advice, would he? :)

Peter Lubke

07-30-2002, 01:11 AM

On Tue, 2002-07-30 at 00:19, Gary wrote:

At 03:58 PM 7/29/2002 +0200, Azrai wrote:

>As I said before: I `am open minded with house-rules I am no rule lawyer.
>but in 15 years of gaming I never met anyone who wanted to pray to two
>different gods at one time.

I do it all the time. Sometimes I throw in a couple saints and dead
relatives into the mix at which I direct my prayers, just to keep things

But how many answer ? - that`s the real crux of the problem.

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geeman

07-30-2002, 01:37 AM

At 12:08 AM 7/30/2002 +0200, A_dark wrote:

>For crying outloud, Moradin`s symbol is the anvil and hammer, you know
>many people that would find that attractive? Dwarves would but humans? nah

Many people found a hammer and a sickle attractive as a symbol....

Gary

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geeman

07-30-2002, 01:37 AM

At 10:38 AM 7/30/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

> >As I said before: I `am open minded with house-rules I am no rule
> lawyer.
> >but in 15 years of gaming I never met anyone who wanted to pray to two
> >different gods at one time.
>
> I do it all the time. Sometimes I throw in a couple saints and dead
> relatives into the mix at which I direct my prayers, just to keep things
>
>But how many answer ? - that`s the real crux of the problem.

Usually the same number of gods/saints/dead relatives answer my polytarget
prayers as answer my monotarget prayers....

Gary

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Ariadne

07-31-2002, 09:37 AM

Orginally posted by geeman

Many people found a hammer and a sickle attractive as a symbol....
Do they? In my oppinion only commoners with the smith profession ;)

Emerald Greybeard

07-31-2002, 12:54 PM

Orginally posted by Ariadne

Orginally posted by geeman

Many people found a hammer and a sickle attractive as a symbol....
Do they? In my oppinion only commoners with the smith profession ;)

I was thinking about taking up the hammer and sickle as my new holy symbol... That'd go over well wouldn't it?? ;)

Ariadne

07-31-2002, 04:25 PM

This would slap two flies with one clap! But where do you put your sword holy symbol of Haelyn? May be you can put a sword and a hammer around your neck (this would be realy good) ;)

geeman

07-31-2002, 05:07 PM

At 06:25 PM 7/31/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:

>But where do you put your sword holy symbol of Haelyn?

The proper placement of a sword holy symbol is in the guts of an unbeliever.

Gary

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Emerald Greybeard

07-31-2002, 05:23 PM

Orginally posted by geeman

At 06:25 PM 7/31/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:

>But where do you put your sword holy symbol of Haelyn?

The proper placement of a sword holy symbol is in the guts of an unbeliever.

Gary

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HAHAHA!!!

"What? Your a non believer? *slice* I think I just heard him calling your name!"
"What do you mean my alignment just went to evil and my gods stripped me of everything? I did it for them damn it!"

Emerald Greybeard

07-31-2002, 05:25 PM

Orginally posted by Ariadne

This would slap two flies with one clap! But where do you put your sword holy symbol of Haelyn?

You know what, you are the first person that has ever asked me that! I never thought about it!! hmmmmm.....

Lord Eldred

08-01-2002, 04:23 AM

Orginally posted by Azrai

...if it makes for a great storyline and makes the game really fun.

You can make the game fun AND realistic if you do not SERVE to different gods but if you just TEACH the dogma of both gods. to me it seems more like personal gaining (more domain powers) than fun. you haven't explained the exact details of memorizing, just curious.

I would never play in any campaign you run because I would hate to have to memorize every single rule of the PHB and have to interrupt play every 10 seconds

As I said before: I 'am open minded with house-rules I am no rule lawyer. but in 15 years of gaming I never met anyone who wanted to pray to two different gods at one time.

by the way, could it be that Lord Eldred is your Game Master and you lulled him with a nice dwarven charm spell ;)

It really was my idea.

::In a zombie voice:: Whatever Queen Emerald wants, Queen Emerald gets!

Lord Eldred

08-01-2002, 04:28 AM

Orginally posted by A_dark

But I still have my arguments.

For crying outloud, Moradin's symbol is the anvil and hammer, you know many people that would find that attractive? Dwarves would but humans? nah

Likewise the underground dwelling dwarves would find the sun on haelyn's symbol something strange for a god to have on his symbol....

But ultimately it is your DM's choice I suppose. I just spoke my mind cos basically we were asked to speak our minds and if your DM was so sure about it, he would not really seek advice, would he? :)

Since I am the DM in question, I would like it on the record that I never asked anyones opinion on this idea. I NEVER SEEKED OUT ADVICE. It was Queen Emerald who wanted to know if anyone role played this type of situation to get some role playing tips. As soon as I saw the post I knew a bunch of people would argue against it. I don't really care if someone thinks it should or shouldn't be done as long as the people in my campaign are ok with it.

As for the symbol, I would put the anvil in the center of a sunburst with a sword and hammer criss crossed in front of it. The dwarves would think that the sun represents fire and that through the use of an anvil and hammer the sword is made possible. I am really not sure why someone said humans don't like hammers and anvils.

Lord Eldred

08-01-2002, 04:33 AM

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

On Tue, 2002-07-30 at 00:19, Gary wrote:

At 03:58 PM 7/29/2002 +0200, Azrai wrote:

>As I said before: I `am open minded with house-rules I am no rule lawyer.
>but in 15 years of gaming I never met anyone who wanted to pray to two
>different gods at one time.

I do it all the time. Sometimes I throw in a couple saints and dead
relatives into the mix at which I direct my prayers, just to keep things

But how many answer ? - that`s the real crux of the problem.

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I would argue that is because you and I were brought up in a primarily monotheistic world. In the last 15 years of your game play no one thought about it because the whole concept is foreign to them. However, in ancient times there was a polytheistic world where the clerics in some cases would invoke the names of whatever god was the most appropriate for the situation at the time. Clerics were holymen that served all of the spiritual needs of the people no matter which god that meant.

Even if it weren't true...it just took you 15 years to see someone wanted to play that way. If it took you 15 years to have some one want to fight with a two-handed sword, would you be so freaked out?

Lord Eldred

08-01-2002, 04:39 AM

I know many humans that work all day in mines and enjoy it. I know many humans who like to cut and polish stones. I know many humans who like to wear those cut and polished stones. FOR THOSE WHO SAY HUMANS WOULDN'T LIKE THE VALUES THAT MORADIN STANDS FOR I SAY BAH!

Not that I really care or anything.

Ariadne

08-01-2002, 12:03 PM

Orginally posted by geeman
The proper placement of a sword holy symbol is in the guts of an unbeliever.
I am an unbeliever! I'm priestess of Haelyns son. I respect Haelyn, but I don't serve him...

Emerald Greybeard

08-01-2002, 12:36 PM

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Since I am the DM in question, I would like it on the record that I never asked anyones opinion on this idea. I NEVER SEEKED OUT ADVICE. It was Queen Emerald who wanted to know if anyone role played this type of situation to get some role playing tips.

And I believe this was the original post made

Originally posted by Emerald Greybeard
Has anyone ever had a preist/preistess of 2 different gods? for example, a dwarven preistess of Moradin who also serves Haelyn. That describes Emerald. Just wondering if anyone else that has been in this situation has found it difficult to know when to pray/call upon whom. Although Moradin and Haelyn are in the same mythos and essentially have the same goals in mind (just different races), I am sure they are to some degree slightly less forgiving than would be a Preistess of sole faith in the one deity.

I guess the answer would be no?

Ariadne

08-01-2002, 04:26 PM

Orginally posted by Emerald Greybeard

I guess the answer would be no?

Yes, I think so :)

Lord Eldred

08-01-2002, 07:03 PM

Orginally posted by Ariadne

Orginally posted by geeman
The proper placement of a sword holy symbol is in the guts of an unbeliever.
I am an unbeliever! I'm priestess of Haelyns son. I respect Haelyn, but I don't serve him...

Wouldn't seem proper to place a sword into your guts now would it?

Ariadne

08-02-2002, 08:03 AM

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Wouldn't seem proper to place a sword into your guts now would it?
Try it....

Emerald Greybeard

08-02-2002, 12:56 PM

Come now, we are all friends here. There will be no imbedding any steel in anyones gut!!

blitzmacher

08-02-2002, 10:40 PM

Has the gods stepped foot on Cerilia again, or is there a dwarf stopping a fight. No offense meant Queen Greybeard, but the only time I've seen a dwarf stop a fight was with a blade of an axe.

Sellenus

08-05-2002, 01:07 AM

ahh... but the good lady Dwarf braves where an axe would fear to tread...

Lord Eldred

08-05-2002, 04:28 AM

Perhaps she would hit us over the head with her mighty hammer! However, given that she is a priestess of two gods perhaps it would be more appropriate that she preaches her way into stopping the fight.

Besides I was indicating that it wouldn't be proper to hurt Ariadne and I believe she was jesting back but everyone got so hyper!

Finally it appears that the argument has been abandoned since my last post.

Now back to the original question...

HAS ANYONE PLAYED A CLERIC THAT WORSHIPPED AND RECEIVED BLESSINGS FROM MORE THAN ONE GOD? IF SO CAN YOU GIVE EMERALD SOME ADVICE AS HOW TO BEST PLAY HER CHARACTER?

geeman

08-05-2002, 11:39 AM

At 06:28 AM 8/5/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

>HAS ANYONE PLAYED A CLERIC THAT WORSHIPPED AND RECEIVED BLESSINGS FROM
>MORE THAN ONE GOD? IF SO CAN YOU GIVE EMERALD SOME ADVICE AS HOW TO BEST
>PLAY HER CHARACTER?

I`ve had several clerics worship an abstract concept or a pantheon. There
are a few such temples in BR. The Treucht Chauchen, and the Land`s
Protectorate (in the Burrows) have a sort of conceptual ideal they focus
on, rather than a particular god. Other temples even worship awnsheghlien
(the Gorgon, the Serpent) which I would suggest isn`t really worshipping a
person so much as the concept they represent, especially since they
actually get spells and abilities based on that faith. This is also kind
of the basis of the pro-elven temples/clerics argument....

Anyway, here are some possibilities for how to handle such characters:

1. This kind of depends on how you interpret the 2e BR priests in 3e, but
the DM could write up lists of feats/class abilities and spell domains to
reflect the hybrid faith of such priests. These lists could pick and
choose between the abilities of the "standard" BR specialty priests, or
could be unique. A priest of "death" who worships the nightly aspect of
Ruornil and Sera, the destructive nature of Belenik and Cuirecaen, as well
as the "natural cycle of life and death" (focussing on the death aspect, of
course) of Erik, could have an entirely different list of class abilities
and domains than "standard" BR specialty priests. Individual temples of
the existing gods should be handled like this IMO. That is, the priests of
the Northern Imperial Temple of Haelyn should have a seperate set of
abilities that are similar to but not identical to those of the Western
Imperial Temple of Haelyn, and both of those should be even more different
from Haelyn`s Aegis.

2. You could bend the rules of 3e a bit (which is a rather good thing to do
in general, I think) by having priests who worship two gods multi-class in
two versions of the specialty priest. This is easily done for a priest of
the Treucht Chauchen, for instance, which "esteems" both Eric and Ruornil,
since he could take levels of both the druid and the priest of Ruornil per
standard multi-classing rules, but one could also design specialty priest
classes with a few variants here and there and allow priests to level up in
each.

...and don`t write in all CAPs.

Gary

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Ariadne

08-05-2002, 11:51 AM

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Besides I was indicating that it wouldn't be proper to hurt Ariadne and I believe she was jesting back but everyone got so hyper!
Oh, I'm completely harmless! O.K., only, if you're no goblin, gnoll, orog, priest of Belinik or Kriesha, necromancer, ogre, awnsheglien or other evil creature... ;)

No, I can't give an advise...

By the way, I don't think, anyone worships the gorgon (they fear him)...

Lord Eldred

08-05-2002, 07:31 PM

...and don`t write in all CAPs.

Gary

WHY? DOES IT BOTHER YOU? :P

Really Gary you tend to be picky sometimes "Don't call me geeman." "Don't write in all Caps." I must really bother you! By the way, I only typed in all caps to draw attention to the fact that the original post was looking for advice on how to play the character. Not whether or not it should be allowed.

Now as to the rest of Gary's post. I am confused. With one hand you write that in 15 years of gaming you have not had anyone want to worship more than one god and with the other you write you have had them worship an entire pantheon. So you do you or don't you have a problem with the concept of worshipping more than one god? While your answer won't change the way I am running my campaign, I am curious on how you stand.

I do find your suggestions very important to running a cleric that worships more than one god. It would be unfair to give that character all the advantages of both gods.

Ariadne

08-06-2002, 09:49 AM

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

I do find your suggestions very important to running a cleric that worships more than one god. It would be unfair to give that character all the advantages of both gods.
It would be absolutly unfair to give a cleric all advantanges of two gods! He should have disadvantages either (because every cleric would choose two gods then and this can't be right!). Cerilia is a world, where the worship of ONE god is practiced. If you want change this, it is your campaign, but give your cleric some disadvantages to stop an uncontrolled pantheon worship!

geeman

08-06-2002, 10:47 AM

At 01:54 PM 8/5/2002 -0700, Lord Eldred wrote:

>>Now as to the rest of Gary`s post. I am confused. With one hand you
>>write that in 15 years of gaming you have not had anyone want to worship
>>more than one god and with the other you write you have had them worship
>>an entire pantheon.

One more clarification: I didn`t write that in 15 years of gaming that I
have not had anyone want to worship more than one god. Actually, nobody
said that. Azrai wrote that "in 15 years of gaming I never met anyone who
wanted to pray to two different gods at one time" and I quoted him in my
post that said, "I do it all the time. Sometimes I throw in a couple saints
and dead relatives into the mix at which I direct my prayers, just to keep
things lively." But that was a joke. I really should start using more
emoticons.

I actually haven`t had a player who wanted to worship two gods at once, but
in my case it`s more like 25 years of gaming.... <Insert appropriate
emoticon here.>

Gary

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Lord Eldred

08-06-2002, 12:46 PM

;) Thanks for the clarification! The honest truth is I didn't have a player do this in 20+ years I have been playing until now. :P

Emerald Greybeard

08-06-2002, 01:59 PM

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

;) Thanks for the clarification! The honest truth is I didn't have a player do this in 20+ years I have been playing until now. :P

Does that mean I'm a bad influence?

Bad dwarf! Bad! ;)

Lord Eldred

08-14-2002, 01:29 AM

Bad influence....yes

Bad dwarf....getting better

Abbess Allessandra

08-24-2002, 01:16 AM

Ok so just when you thought you beat the horse...
Just kidding.

What if Haelyn has given the hint that the nations united, whether or not they serve him soley, is what he wants.

I also have to mention the Greek, Roman, Norse, and North American Indian beliefs of polytheistic religions. There are others but these are the best known.

I also want to know what the advantages are of serving two gods of good nature. I could see a problem with a good and and evil one but not two good aligned.

Just some thoughts.....

Ariadne

08-25-2002, 03:07 PM

Hey, maybe you have now a new goal with your 2 deities. Try the new "lawbringer" prestige class. (Your Haelyn part will be happy, I think...)

Lord Eldred

08-26-2002, 12:58 AM

I believe the dwarf has already chosen a prestige class. I would not be in favor of her switching!

Ariadne

08-26-2002, 11:46 AM

Oh, that was new to me. Two prestige classes are possible, but very hard to realize...

Birthright-L

09-06-2002, 08:43 AM

<< Many people found a hammer and a sickle attractive as a symbol.... >>

Especially on a red field.

You know that game where you ask questions very quickly and the other person
is to reply immediately with the first thing that comes into his or her
mind? If played correctly, rougly 9 out of ten people, when asked to name a
color, will come up with red. Similarly, most people, when asked to name a
tool, will say "hammer". At least in my experience.

So I guess the bottom line is that communism is like a jedi mind trick that
seriously got out of hand. I suppose.

Don`t know about that sickle, though. :)

- the Falcon

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