Spellcasters and the Balance of Power

[ConjurerDragon]

Here is something I posted in the forum of the BR campaign I currently play
in. Was this by intention or failure omitted from the 3E manual?

"The player of Caine mentioned the original idea what divine and arcane
magic should be able to do and what not.

They have been split into something like divine magic heals, protects,
cures, does nice damage against single targets (slay living?) but fails
doing massdamage against several enemys - that´s where wizards excel.
Starting with 3rd level fireball, or lightning bolt up to Melf´s Minute
Meteors, Delayed Blast Fireballs or whatever the wizards is the TRUE, FULL
spellcaster wielding mass-destructive power. But he can´t heal himself even
1 point...


My opinion:
The 3E manual of Travis Doom omitted one very important rule of 2E and
Birthright - the specialty priests!

2E rules balanced the armour-wearing, mace or other blunt martial weapon
wielding, relatively sturdy cleric (as compared to the relying only on magic
protection, being able to use only peasants weapons, physically frail
wizard) by restricting the clerics access to spells.

In 2E Birthright a priest had major access to some spheres of divine magic,
e.g. of combat (all 9 levels of spells available), but only minor access to
some, e.g. the sphere of divination (a priest of Haelyn could never cast
DETECT LIE as it is a fourthlevel spell) and even NO access at all to some
(e.g. a druid/priest of erik had no access to the sphere of combat).

This gave 2E Priests a certain flavour in my opinion - a priest of Nesierie
excelled at healing and divining, Haelyn´s chosen at battle...

The 3E manual of Travis Doom omitted this important rule. The consequences
are that the priest class in 3E Birhtright as compared to the other
spellcasters (wizard/sorceror) is not well balanced.

Already in 2E and in 3E continued are these factors:
====================================
Priests (temples) have an income of their own - wizard (sources) have to
rely on what they beg from others or have to burn regency to alchemy gold at
horrifying exchange rates.

Priests have the FREE Agitate action - Wizards have none.

Priests wield the power of Investiture which nearly all other regents need -
Wizards?

Priests may wear all armour and shields- Wizards none (except magical means
which the priest may wear also).

Priests may use a much wider range of weapons than wizards.

Priests pray for their conventional spells, they simply have to chose from
the list available for their spelllevel - wizards have to research their
conventional spells, burning gold and time (except those few spells that
come with gaining levels). And remember that as a wizard you need to know
the conventional version of a spell before you can convert it to a battlespell.

That was (as said above) balanced by restricting the clerics access to spells.

Now in 3E these unbalancing rules were added:
=================================

Wizards may not freely exchange researched spells (and they have to research
even conventional spells!), and do so only under the most dire circumstances
- Priests however have no problems trading or exchanging spells.

Priests gain 2 granted powers for the 2 domains they choose from their gods
list AND gain a +1 bonus for casting spells from that domains AND gain an
additional domain spell per spelllevel. Comparable advantages a wizard could
only gain if he would specialize in a school of magic, loosing access to
several other schools. And even then he would not have the same advantages.

Spell selectioin is restricted for priests now only that they may not use
spells from directly opposed domains (e.g. EVIL-GOOD) but to all other
domains they have full access (at least I have not seen any restriction
similar to 2E).

My suggestions for discussion as house rules are:

1) Restrict divine spell access as in 2E:
Full 9 level access only to the two chosen domains,
3 level minor access to the other domains of the clerics deity,
NO access to all others domains (similar to 2E specialty priest and not too
far strechted, as the 3E advantages of priests resemble specialization. This
would mean that a priest without the WAR domain would never cast a spell
from that domain (including battlespells as hammerstorm from the old combat
sphere which I see closely resembled in the new WAR domain).

OR
2) If Priests are capable of casting area-affecting massdamage spells on the
battlefield, then they meddle in affairs that only wizards/sorcerors should
be allowed (being the physically frail TRUE FULL spellcasters). Priests may
do so, but only if they chose the "Non-Militant" version of Priests
(forfeiting their heavy and medium armour feat, changing their d8 to a d6
hit dice, changing their attack bonus to poor like a wizard, see p. 5 of the
3E manual) AND do NOT gain the advantages of this type of cloistered cleric
- in fact they resemble wizards now, at least somehow. Priest who do not
chose this restriction, may cast battlespells, as heal, cure but no damage
spell, which affects more than 1 unit (no area spells). Priests in full
plate armour, wielding blunt martial weapons, casting massdamage spell
matching the massdamage of wizards in a whole area affecting lots of units
are overpowering.

OR
3) If we let the Clerics in 3E as they are, no restrictions, they are in
effect FULL spellcasters with few restriction - wizards and sorcerors are
TRUE FULL spellcasters with LOTS of restrictions. So they should then have
some noticeable advantages when it comes to the only thing they can do good
- spellcasting:
- at the very least CAST REALM SPELL and CAST BATTLE SPELL are bonus feats
for true (d4) wizards;
- each and every battlespell converted from divine spells costs at least 4
GB. Arcane battle spells cost 1 GB for spells affecting only a single unit,
2 GB affecting several units, 3 GB area effect.
- Priest without the WAR domain pay TWICE the amount for casting battlespells;
- wizards gain the same advantages the "non-militant" cloistered cleric
gains (see p. 5 3E manual). Why not? Wizards are not more better
spellcasters than priests and have lots of restrictions priests don´t have.
A few skill points an a skill focus feat are not too much;

AND
4) As clerics have not to spend time and money researching their
conventional spells which wizards have to (with the exception of the few
spells gaind by gaining level) it can´t be that wizards may not exchange
spells among each other, but priests may freely trade battle spells (they
have no need to trade conventional spells, as they know ALL of them!)
Priest should be unable to trade spells, tradition could be a reason, but
much better: Prayers to a certain god can´t be used by a cleric of another
god, even if it´s Cuiraceen and Haelyn - a priest of Haelyn praying for a
battle spell prayer to Cuiraceen will receive no response

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[Ariadne]

You love to play wizards, ey?

1) Wizards habe THE BETTER SPELLS! O.K., the domains give excess to some wizard spells, but not very much. A high level wizard would top a cleric, if good prepared. A wizard must only take one level in a other class and he can wear, what he wants to.

2) The clerics have serveral disadvantages in 3rd edition (Cuiraécen priests loose there fighter attack f.e.). That's why an idea with cleric prestige classes is a good one.

3) To research spells and knowlege is life filling for a wizard! (If you don't want that, play a sorcerer) It's up to the DM to let you find the spells you want.

4) If priests are non-militant the would not pray for combat spells!

5) If you want to have good weapons to fight with, play an elf!

6) The priests have fewer spells too (compare: A priest of 1st level with wisdom 19 gets 6 spells of first spell level [2nd edition] and 3 spells [3rd edition])!

7) Priest ARE unable to trade spells!

[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

>1) Wizards habe THE BETTER SPELLS! O.K., the domains give excess to some wizard spells, but not very much. A high level wizard would top a cleric, if good prepared. A wizard must only take one level in a other class and he can wear, what he wants to.
>
But he still suffers spell failure risks when wearing armour... So even
a wizard 10/fightter 1 might wear heavy armour, he would be no good at
casting...

>7) Priest ARE unable to trade spells!
>
Maybe, but it is not written officially in the 3E rule book, while it IS
written for wizards...
bye
Michael

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[Lord Grave]

> >7) Priest ARE unable to trade spells!
> >
> Maybe, but it is not written officially in the 3E rule book,
> while it IS written for wizards... bye Michael

But priests know all Divine spells available to them. I would not apply
this to Battle and Realm spells, however, but would allow them to trade
those if the two priests are of same religion.

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

But he still suffers spell failure risks when wearing armour... So even a wizard 10/fighter 1 might wear heavy armour, he would be no good at casting...
That's the problem of all arcane spellcasters (nothing new compared with 2nd edition). A prestige class can repair this (ignore up to 30% spell failure) or use simply "bracers of defence/ armor", an "amulet of natural armor", a "ring of protection" a.s.o. (if you don't have them, forge them, you ARE a wizard)...



originally posted by Lord Grave

But priests know all Divine spells available to them. I would not apply this to Battle and Realm spells, however, but would allow them to trade those if the two priests are of same religion.
You are right, that priests know all spells available to them allready. My oppinion: If a priest has researched a new spell (of any kind), it is available from this time to any priest OF HIS RELIGION, who gets the level to cast it after the research. All others must trade it, if of the same religion. Priests of other religions (even if allied) must research them alone...

[Azrai]

@ConjurerDragon

the points you mention are general problems of the priest class and no conversion or birthright specific problems. there had been several discussions in nearly every important forum of the issue, if the priest class is too strong in the 3. edition or not. at the end the arguments on both sides weren't that striking...

[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

>this msg is generated by the Birthright.net forum. you can read the whole thread here: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=816
Azrai wrote:
> @ConjurerDragon
>the points you mention are general problems of the priest class and no conversion or birthright specific problems. there had been several discussions in nearly every important forum of the issue, if the priest class is too strong in the 3. edition or not. at the end the arguments on both sides weren`t that striking...
>
I did not say that the priest in 2E compared to the wizard or the 3E
priest compared to the wizard was too powerful.
The main reason was that the "specialty" priests of Birthright, who were
balanced in 2E (IMO) because of limited spell access (major spheres,
minor spheres, and NO access to some spheres) did not have the same
balance in 3E.

I thought: Hey, maybe Travis Doom simply forgot to add the rule that
priests only have limited access to certain spheres/domains while he was
making up the 3E manual partly from the 3E PHB.
bye
Michael

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[kgauck]

With careful selection of spells, plus the Still Spell feat, you can get
pretty close to having no penalties for wearing armor. I have an Improved
Still Spell which basically removes the "one level up" requirement of Still
Spell, but so far I have restricted it to Sidhe, who should be able to be
fighter-mages without penalty.

Any character who wants to eliminate the armor penalty and is willing to
invest a reasonable number of choices to get there should be able to. The
form these choices take will naturally vary from campaign to campaign, but
it should be a possibility.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 AM


> I thought: Hey, maybe Travis Doom simply forgot to add the rule that
> priests only have limited access to certain spheres/domains while he was
> making up the 3E manual partly from the 3E PHB.

Its really difficult to apply the spheres in 3e. Some spell names have
changed subtly. Some spell levels are changed. You need both a 2e spell
reference and a 3e one, and you need to be on the lookout for conversion
issues. Unless you are really devoted to spheres, its best to just forget
about them.

The only thing that finally got me to go back and make the master lists of
domains for 3e spells was the decision (under the influence of John Machin)
to turn priests into divine wizards in regards their armor and weapons
allowances. Getting the 3e spell list organized by spheres was a lot of
work.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!
Yes, there is a list of domains for the gods in the 3E manual - but
nowhere is something like in 2E Birthright, e.g. that a priest of Haelyn
could not cast level 4+ divination spells (minor sphere divination). In
3E I would have expected to restrict him to level 1-3 of the Knowledge
domain as being comparable to the 2E divination sphere.e.g. in 2E a
priest of Haelyn could never cast Detect Lie - now in 3E he can?

Similar is the Druid of Erik casting the battle spell hammerstorm
(combat sphere, maybe war domain) not possible in 2E, but no it goes?

Or the Priest of Cuiraceen casting MAINTAIN ARMIES (2E Creation sphere)
- not possible in 2E as only Avani and Laerme had creation in her book,
but in 3E the Priests of Cuiraceen could maintain Ghoeres armys...
bye
Michael
*********************
Kenneth Gauck wrote:
...

>Its really difficult to apply the spheres in 3e. Some spell names have
>changed subtly. Some spell levels are changed. You need both a 2e spell
>reference and a 3e one, and you need to be on the lookout for conversion
>issues. Unless you are really devoted to spheres, its best to just forget
>about them.
>
>The only thing that finally got me to go back and make the master lists of
>domains for 3e spells was the decision (under the influence of John Machin)
>to turn priests into divine wizards in regards their armor and weapons
>allowances. Getting the 3e spell list organized by spheres was a lot of
>work.
>
>Kenneth Gauck
>kgauck@mchsi.com
>
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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 03:53, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 AM


> I thought: Hey, maybe Travis Doom simply forgot to add the rule that
> priests only have limited access to certain spheres/domains while he was
> making up the 3E manual partly from the 3E PHB.

Its really difficult to apply the spheres in 3e. Some spell names have
changed subtly. Some spell levels are changed. You need both a 2e spell
reference and a 3e one, and you need to be on the lookout for conversion
issues. Unless you are really devoted to spheres, its best to just forget
about them.

The only thing that finally got me to go back and make the master lists of
domains for 3e spells was the decision (under the influence of John Machin)
to turn priests into divine wizards in regards their armor and weapons
allowances. Getting the 3e spell list organized by spheres was a lot of
work.

Spell spheres were perhaps one of the few significant contributions of
2e to AD&D. Varying the armor restrictions of priests was also entwined
with the number of spell spheres and granted powers. The baseline
character class in 2e should be the warrior. What does the specific
priesthood give up to gain his spheres and powers compared to the
warrior.

Haelyn
drop d10 to d8 HP,
slightly worse THAC0, no
specialization
+2 v Fear etc, Turn
Undead, weapon of
choice, SP all, charm,
combat, air, healing,
law, protection -
divination, guardian,
necromantic
Erik
drop d10 to d8 HP,
slightly worse THAC0, no
specialization, no
multiple attacks,
limited armor, d6
damage weapons
move silently+hide
shadows, animal empathy,
shapechange, pass
without trace, +2 v
fire/elec, identify
plants/animals, extra
languages, immunity to
natural charm, SP
animal, plant,
elemental, healing all,
summoning, weather -
divination, protection,
travellers
Cuiraecen
drop d10 to d8 HP, no
specialization (no
losses to paladins at
all)
lightning and cold
resistance, SP all ,
combat, air, water,
guardian, war, weather -
chaos, healing,
protection
Nesirie
drop d10 to d8 HP,
slightly worse THAC0, no
specialization, no
multiple attacks,
limited armor (scale),
limited weapons (spear
d6/d8 best)
turn undead, water
breathing/walking, SP
all, sea animal, charm,
divination, water,
healing, necromantic,
protection - combat,
weather plus solid fog,
free action














Wow!!!!!!! It`s not rocket science to discover that Haelyn, Erik, and
Cuiraecen have made GREAT tradeoffs. Nesirie seems far more balanced.
Personally, I drop the weapon of choice for Haelyn back to 5th level and
eliminate their multiple attacks - dropping all three minor spheres and
demote protection and charm to minor spheres. Erik loses elemental
completely - plant, animal and elemental are just way too powerful given
the other powers - and plant and animal seem mandatory. Cuiraecen`s
spells are quite limited - but THAC0 and multiple attacks as a warrior?
- I don`t think so, they get dropped but allow HP as d10.

Whoever designed these priesthoods didn`t look at the relative merits of
each of the spell spheres. Just counting the spheres isn`t good enough -
some are way more useful than others and have many more spells. Nor did
they use a baseline for what`s in and out - their scoping was predicated
on what was `in` only.

3e really isn`t class-based, it`s pretty much a free-for-all, that`s a
style thing - some like it and some hate it. So there it`s about
character balance - or about min/maxing your character more often than
not. (Yes, I`m one of those that really hate it with a vengeance - it
doesn`t contribute to D&D at all)

So single class comparisons really are meaningless in 3e. In 2e however,
the poor old wizard is at the opposite end of the combat-magic
comparison line. He will generally have fewer spells than the priest,
but be less restricted in their effects. His defenses against magic are
better, but he makes a poorer melee combatant. (Even so, a 5th level
wizard should find 2 goblins a no-contest in melee - and that is no
wimp!) Gygax changed the magic system to mnemonic once his own playing
group reached 7th level and above - coincidence ? - I say no, 99% of all
player characters (if played from 1st level) should be 7th level or
below - so what kept the wizards alive that far? (i) free choice of
spells at casting time, (ii) made up spells out of balance with level,
and (iii) WANDS!

When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest
with a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?

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[Ariadne]

@ Peter Lubke:
Are you talking of 2nd or 3rd edition? What do you mean, a priest gets d10 HP? When I'm informed correctly they get only d8 (or are you talking of fighters with priest abilities?)!



originally posted by Peter Lubke

When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest with a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?
That's why I play a priestess of Cuiraécen ;)

[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 19:50, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

this msg is generated by the Birthright.net forum. you can read the whole thread here: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=816
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=816

Ariadne wrote:
@ Peter Lubke:
Are you talking of 2nd or 3rd edition? What do you mean, a priest gets d10 HP, when I`m informed correctly they get only d8 (or are you talking of fighters with priest abilities?)!

2nd Ed, Give `em what you think is correct a d10 d8 or d6 (even a d4) -
I think Cuiraecen priests THAC0 and multiple attacks are too unbalanced
(compared to an equivalent level warrior), but letting them have d10 for
HP would be more balanced. For that matter Ruornil and Eloele should be
d6 for HP. (if not even d4 for Ruornil)




originally posted by Peter Lubke

When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest with a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?
That`s why I play a priestess of Cuiraécen ;)

At 120 yards - you probably can`t tell she`s a priestess - and she gets
fried anyway :-)
Of course at 10 yards, she gets asked to dinner by candlelight (what
other kind is there?)

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[Birthright-L]

Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>

>When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest with
>a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?

Arm the wizard with a sling and the priest of Cuiraecen with a sword of
lightning. Now who`s laughing. If you`re going to set these silly things
up set them up evenly. If the priest is able to apply his best spell to
resist fire, the wizard is considerably less effective, and yet the priest
of Cuiraecen has plenty of combat oriented spells to counteract any of the
mage armor or shield spells the wizard might employ, that and his decent
comabt ability. Priests have strong defensive magiks, the ability to heal
their larger hit dice, and present formidable opponants to wizards.
Generally wizards need to maintain the upper hand in combat. They are
brittle. Without the upper hand they are very vulnerable. The
priest-wizard confrontation is very much like the fighter-rogue
confrontation.

Hieronymus Agricola
wizard, alchemist, bibliophile

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-08-01 at 14:44, Hieronymus Agricola wrote:

Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>

>When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest with
>a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?

Arm the wizard with a sling and the priest of Cuiraecen with a sword of
lightning. Now who`s laughing. If you`re going to set these silly things
up set them up evenly.

Silly? How so? I was merely pointing out that a wizard is far more
likely to have and use a wand of fire than to engage in melee. The
comparison HAS to be between apples and oranges. A wizard with a sling
as their main weapon (sans spells, wands etc) would be extremely rare
(even if the only melee weapon of said wizard was a sling - it would be
their last resort, and even then from a 40` high wall with the priest at
the bottom unable to get up). A priest of Cuiraecen OTOH, is very likely
to use a sword and choose to enter melee - and very unlikely for that
sword to be a sword of lightning (although it probably would be their
dream weapon - much as a staff of the magi is for wizards - with about
equal probability of happening).

HPs and armor class are not a consideration for wizards, if they are
close enough that it matters they are already in big trouble, so
there`s no point in using them as a true comparison. The difference
between a priest of Cuiraecen and a warrior is almost negligible in
combat ability. I`m not arguing that priests aren`t good in combat -
quite the opposite - my point is that one-on-one this pair wont enter
combat except at a distance equal to the range of a wand.

If the priest is able to apply his best spell to
resist fire, the wizard is considerably less effective, and yet the priest
of Cuiraecen has plenty of combat oriented spells to counteract any of the
mage armor or shield spells the wizard might employ, that and his decent
comabt ability. Priests have strong defensive magiks, the ability to heal
their larger hit dice, and present formidable opponants to wizards.
Generally wizards need to maintain the upper hand in combat. They are
brittle. Without the upper hand they are very vulnerable. The
priest-wizard confrontation is very much like the fighter-rogue
confrontation.

Hieronymus Agricola
wizard, alchemist, bibliophile

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[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

I think Cuiraecen priests THAC0 and multiple attacks are too unbalanced(compared to an equivalent level warrior), but letting them have d10 for HP would be more balanced.
That's the special of Cuiraécens blessing... d10 might be a good thing for priests of Belinik.



originally posted by Peter Lubke

At 120 yards - you probably can`t tell she`s a priestess - and she gets fried anyway :-)
It's a good thing to have a ring of fire resistance... :P

By the way, the wizard has more than three energie-forms to counter her (O.K., until he finds the right, he might be dead..) and the hardest weapon a wizard has is a "stoneskin" and a "globe of invulnerability". Even a good priestess must hack some rounds to get though it or must be powerfull enough to cast "flame strike" or "stormrage"...

[Birthright-L]

Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>

>Silly? How so? I was merely pointing out that a wizard is far more
>likely to have and use a wand of fire than to engage in melee. The
>comparison HAS to be between apples and oranges.

But does the priest engage the wizard with a mundane weapon? Can`t you use
the gp values of a wand of fire to estimate what kind of magical assistance
the priest might be carrying? You make it sound as if he pulled a blade
from the bargain bin. A better comparison might make use of a typical mage
weapon vs a typical priest weapon of approximate power.

>HPs and armor class are not a consideration for wizards, if they are
>close enough that it matters they are already in big trouble, so
>there`s no point in using them as a true comparison.

Disagree, especially when that priest of Cuiraecen might just be able to
call lighting. Priests have ranged spells too. So the ability to withstand
a mutual spell blasts effects saves, hp`s, and includes the priest ability
to heal himself. While any mage can purchase a potion to restore healing,
the priest is likely to have more of them, and may be making them himself.
Not to mention scrolls. A priest with a bow and a true strike spell is
going to force a lot of concentration checks and wear down the wizard`s
ability to withstand the priest.

I grant that the range may start out great. But while the wizard must
maintain distance, the priest of Cuiraecen can wield spells at distance as
well as ranged weapons, and close for melee. Thw wizard is forced to
maintain the upper hand. Its certainly possible. That`s what fly and
invisibility spells are for. But its no slam dunk. The priest is
formidable.

Hieronymus Agricola
wizard, alchemist, summoner

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:14 PM

> Whoever designed these priesthoods didn`t look at the relative merits of
> each of the spell spheres. Just counting the spheres isn`t good enough -
> some are way more useful than others and have many more spells. Nor did
> they use a baseline for what`s in and out - their scoping was predicated
> on what was `in` only.

Don`t forget that priesthoods are not supposed to be balanced. The greater
gods were designed to have cooler priests than the intermediate, or lessor
gods. Haelyn, Avani, and Erik are greater gods, so I think they were
looking to make them better.

The way I handle this in 3e is to create more aspects, more domains, and
more paths for a greater god than intermediate, and fewer still for the
lessor gods. My thinking gives demigods two domains. Lessor gods have
three, so some choice comes into the picture. Intermediate have four, and
greater gods have five. Its one of the reasons that you can have Haelyn`s
alignment be any good or any lawful. I can focus on Good and Courage while
another priest may focus on Law and War. Community is my fifth domain for
Haelyn. You can come up with a great variety of priests serving different
purposes. It makes the many sects of Haelyn interesting while still serving
the greater cause of Haelyn, because Haelyn has many causes. The NIT, for
instance is very much a good-centered temple. The NIT is not particularly a
militaristic temple, so war is not common, though courage is. I might
describe the WIT as a community and war based temple, with the ethical
concerns of law and good taking a back seat. The OIT probabaly requries
that Law is one of your domains.

I`d be willing to see Haelyn`s priests have a core set of spells (All,
Charm, and Healing) augmented by whichever domains were selected by getting
those spheres as well.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 00:22, Hieronymus Agricola wrote:

Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>




Disagree, especially when that priest of Cuiraecen might just be able to
call lighting. Priests have ranged spells too. So the ability to withstand
a mutual spell blasts effects saves, hp`s, and includes the priest ability
to heal himself. While any mage can purchase a potion to restore healing,
the priest is likely to have more of them, and may be making them himself.
Not to mention scrolls. A priest with a bow and a true strike spell is
going to force a lot of concentration checks and wear down the wizard`s
ability to withstand the priest.

I will again repeat my point . I don`t care and have no particular
leaning toward which is `better` than the other. You can compare two
priests. You can compare two warriors. You can compare two magic-users.
But it`s as pointless to compare a mage`s melee skills to a warrior`s
melee skills -- as a point of reference -- as to compare the warriors
spell casting skills to the mage`s spell casting skills. Neither the
warriors spell casting or the wizards melee ability are truly relevant
in a comparison.

A priest of Cuiraecen (specifically Cuiraecen and no-one else - just
Cuiraecen - okay?) is very very similar to a bog-standard warrior.
Comparing a priest of Cuiraecen to a warrior shows a distinct unbalanced
approach from the priesthood designers, the only difference is that the
priest has all his powers and spells and fewer hit points - NOT a
balanced priesthood.

From the point of trying to compare a magic-user to a warrior (apples
and oranges), it matters not a scrap if the wizard has a dagger of venom
-- it`s not an attack mode of choice -- spells, staffs and wands are.
Sure a magic-user doesn`t wear armor -- since he`s not intending to
melee, that`s not so important - and the warriors armor doesn`t help him
against the charm spell. The mage`s THAC0 ? - how does that help him
flick the switch on the wand? Hit points - well cross discipline hit
points always favor the character with more -- it`s a more involved
point to make but consider a wizard(d4) with a 16 constitution and a
priest(d8) with a 14 constitution.

Of course this priest is formidable, very in fact - more formidable than
the same level of warrior, far more formidable than the same XP warrior,
more formidable than any other priesthood --- as a warrior. But as a
spell caster he kinda sucks. Magic stone or spiritual hammer when you
have a big sword and a crossbow? Call lightning is pretty cool and flame
strike too if you are outdoors. A cure light wounds is okay, but it`s
the best healing spell he`s got. Protection from fire is useful against
those wands of fire, but the reality is that this priest is an
in-your-face combat priest - up close and personal. [Erik`s priests have
the best spell casting IMO.]

------
Further On HP:
The HP balance cross-discipline (or cross-class if you will) is sort-of
balanced out but in a haphazard kind of way. It`s far from consistent
but ...

A warrior tends to use the same class of weapon for his entire career -
a sword does 1-8 against lower level opponents and 1-12 against higher
level opponents. I`m generalizing but except for the ultimate opponents
(other men), most high HD monsters are also larger than man-sized. He
may get a slightly better sword as time goes by, but the damage will
still fall into roughly the same range. In the meantime his HP rise
quite quickly. A 9th level warrior with a +3 sword does 4-11 pts of
damage per strike. (about 7.5 on average)

At the other end of the class-spectrum, the magic-users weapon tends to
be able to do more and more damage as the caster rises in level. A 9th
level mage with a lightning bolt does 9-54 points of damage (average
about 32), and victims save for half-damage. Inconsistency occurs when
it takes more lightning bolt spells to take out a warrior than required
to take out another mage. It doesn`t mean that the mage vs warrior
balance is wrong, nor does it mean that the mage vs mage balance is
wrong.

Priests of course, generally have a d8 for hit points - having slightly
fewer than warriors. Their weapons don`t have quite the same damage
potential - just a few points lower. They have some magics - mostly
defensive but some offensive - they are generally balanced too.

IMC, no character gets any bonus or penalty to HP for constitution. A
9th level mage will have 9-36 HP (average 23) and a 9th level warrior
will have 9-90 HP (average 50). In a strict face-off, the warrior (armed
with say a +3 longsword) has a pretty good base chance of sticking the
sword right through the mage (about 90%) for 4-11 points of damage (25%
chance of an outright kill). The mage has a 100% chance of hitting the
warrior with a cone of cold (13-40 points).

I use the notion of a combat round being a number of feints,
opportunities, attacks, parries - all determined by a single attack roll
(gee - sounds a lot like the original D&D doesn`t it). Because the
warrior has greater combat experience, skill at avoiding damage etc he
has more HP -- but the mage has some too -- the average warrior will
have more (27 points more). The warrior will actually damage the mage if
he hits - the mage`s combat experience isn`t sufficient to avoid the
blow. The mage has enough power in his spell to potentially wound the
warrior (average is about 32 damage - 5 more than 27), and he could kill
with a good roll (but could also not damage with a bad roll).

Such powerful characters are deadly, and combat is swift. A 9th level
warrior is no more able to withstand a lightning bolt from a 9th level
mage as is a first level warrior or a clerk of the court. (Although he
has a much better chance to avoid it). Similarly, the mage has little
defense against the warriors supreme skill with the blade - he can`t "go
a few rounds" just because he has a few HP - against this warrior he`s
as much a match as that clerk is. No-one, not even powerful characters
themselves should piss either one of this pair off and think to get away
lightly.

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[Birthright-L]

I wasn`t disagreeing with that point. I was disagreeing with the
characterization of a wizard with a wand laughing at the priest of Cuiraecen
who no one bothered to arm at all. No wonder the wizard is laughing, the
deck was stacked in his favor. About as funny as the wizard with a sling
....

My point, which I must have burried, was that while the wizard and priest
may be different, they are more similar when similarly armed. All your
comparison established was that the unarmed are laughable.

Hieronymus Agricola
wizard, alchemist, bibliophile


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[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by kgauck

Don`t forget that priesthoods are not supposed to be balanced. The greater gods were designed to have cooler priests than the intermediate, or lessor gods. Haelyn, Avani, and Erik are greater gods, so I think they were looking to make them better.
Oh, yes? Why are priests of Haelyn and Avani so weak then (compared to Laerme, Cuiraécen, Kriesha, Sera...) In my oppinion lesser gods give their priests more good powers to get more worshippers through them (greater gods have no use for this).



Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

A priest of Cuiraecen (specifically Cuiraecen and no-one else - just Cuiraecen - okay?) is very very similar to a bog-standard warrior. Comparing a priest of Cuiraecen to a warrior shows a distinct unbalanced approach from the priesthood designers, the only difference is that the priest has all his powers and spells and fewer hit points - NOT a balanced priesthood.
You forget, a priest can't specialize himself in a weapon and can't use warriors skills. He IS a priest. Most are fewer strong than warriors, so they do not this damage with a sword...



Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

A cure light wounds is okay, but it`sthe best healing spell he`s got.
No, that's wrong. He has "cure moderate wounds" either. :P

[Peter Lubke]

On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 21:14, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
A priest of Cuiraecen (specifically Cuiraecen and no-one else - just Cuiraecen - okay?) is very very similar to a bog-standard warrior. Comparing a priest of Cuiraecen to a warrior shows a distinct unbalanced approach from the priesthood designers, the only difference is that the priest has all his powers and spells and fewer hit points - NOT a balanced priesthood.[/quote]
You forget, a priest can`t specialize himself in a weapon and can`t use warriors skills. He IS a priest. Most are fewer strong than warriors, so they do not this damage with a sword...



Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

A cure light wounds is okay, but it`sthe best healing spell he`s got.
No, that`s wrong. He has "cure moderate wounds" either. :P

I assume you mean that they have even *more* in 3e: my comment is -
typical, 3e is a real power trip


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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 6:50 PM

> I assume you mean that they have even *more* in 3e: my comment is -
> typical, 3e is a real power trip

3e operates at a different scale, of course you`d need to bother to look
with an open mind to notice such nuance.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2002-08-03 at 10:12, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 6:50 PM

> I assume you mean that they have even *more* in 3e: my comment is -
> typical, 3e is a real power trip

3e operates at a different scale, of course you`d need to bother to look
with an open mind to notice such nuance.

Name-calling doesn`t make an objective argument (or even a very good
one).
You can play Monopoly with $2,500 starting cash instead of $1,500 too.
That`s a different scale. But I`d call it a `big money` game (cf `power
trip`).

FR is a more magic heavy and power ridden world than BR. Dark Sun
perhaps more so again. Planescape very much more so. 3e is basically a
very much more powerful game than 2e - and far more focused on hack and
slay.


Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:49 PM


> Name-calling doesn`t make an objective argument (or even a very good
> one).

I`ll take this under advisement when you see you putting into practice, Mr.
real- power-trip-hack-and-slay.

Additionally, I didn`t call you a name, I accused you of being closed minded
and not bothering to give 3e a chance.

Finally, if its not for you, fine. But a goodly number of us on the list
prefer 3e and your suggestions that we`re power tripping, or hacks isn`t
appreciated. Consider this an invitation to consider that name-calling
doesn`t make an objective argument.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke



Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

A cure light wounds is okay, but it`sthe best healing spell he`s got.
No, that`s wrong. He has "cure moderate wounds" either. :P

I assume you mean that they have even *more* in 3e: my comment is -
typical, 3e is a real power trip
No, I play a 2nd edition character, but I were a fool only to use PHB spells ("cure moderate wounds" is a spell of " spells and powers" book, I think). I use all awailable spells of the "priest spell compendium" to have some good for attack and defense...

[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-08-07 at 21:41, Ariadne wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=816

Ariadne wrote:

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke



Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

A cure light wounds is okay, but it`sthe best healing spell he`s got.
No, that`s wrong. He has "cure moderate wounds" either. :P

I assume you mean that they have even *more* in 3e: my comment is -
typical, 3e is a real power trip
No, I play a 2nd edition character, but I were a fool only to use PHB spells

Fair enough. I`m not a fan of "more is better" although I do look at
alternative sources for what I do allow. Personally, I found "Spells and
Powers" to be unworthy of the asking price in terms of value - although
that was a common theme for most of 2e`s supplements. IMC, priests of
Cuiraecen don`t have access to any healing at all - and their paladins
can`t lay on hands either. They are way too powerful otherwise -
completely out of proportion to the other classes available. If any
priesthood should have been given those powers it should have been
Belinik/Azrai historically.

("cure moderate wounds" is a spell of " spells and powers" book, I think). I use all awailable spells of the "priest spell compendium" to have some good for attack and defense...

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[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

IMC, priests of Cuiraecen don`t have access to any healing at all - and their paladins can`t lay on hands either. They are way too powerful otherwise - completely out of proportion to the other classes available. If any priesthood should have been given those powers it should have been Belinik/Azrai historically.
But they ARE priests/ paladins. If they couldn' heal, they are no more than normal fighters! (By the way, even priests of Belinik have minor access to the sphere of healing).

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-08-08 at 21:45, Ariadne wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
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Ariadne wrote:

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

IMC, priests of Cuiraecen don`t have access to any healing at all - and their paladins can`t lay on hands either. They are way too powerful otherwise - completely out of proportion to the other classes available. If any priesthood should have been given those powers it should have been Belinik/Azrai historically.
But they ARE priests/ paladins. If they couldn` heal, they are no more than normal fighters! (By the way, even priests of Belinik have minor access to the sphere of healing).

Hey, no issue with them being priests -- not all priests have to be able
to heal though !
Belinik should have superior combat abilities to all other priesthoods
(Azrai). Don`t get me wrong, I like Cuiraecen -- but he`s a "Thor"-model
god, not an Odin-model. Captain Kirk not Captain Picard. Belinik is a
Klingon though.


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[Azrai]

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke
If any priesthood should have been given those powers it should have been Belinik/Azrai historically.

There are still no priest of Azrai available ;)



IMC, priests of
Cuiraecen don`t have access to any healing at all

C. priests are powerful, this is true. but it's not the right way to make a reduction at this elementary point.

[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

Hey, no issue with them being priests -- not all priests have to be able to heal though !
Belinik should have superior combat abilities to all other priesthoods (Azrai). Don`t get me wrong, I like Cuiraecen -- but he`s a "Thor"-model god, not an Odin-model. Captain Kirk not Captain Picard. Belinik is a Klingon though.
It is the natural of any priest to heal (and a priest of Cuiraécen is reduced with that already)! Do I get you right? A priest of Belinik should have better combat abilities than a priest of Cuiraécen? I think, they are and must be equal. A priest of Belinik doesn't have the fighter's attack, but he has other advantages (hightened abilities, more attacks, +1 attack with weapon of choice, fear etc.)! So they have different abilities, but they are equal at a sum.

Yes, Cuiraécen is almost competely like Thor. He represents storms and war (and for that reason his priests have the right abilities)! So where is your problem?

What are you talking of star trek? Captain Kirk is definitivly not Captain Picard, but trey're both captains of the enterprise :P !

[Peter Lubke]

On Fri, 2002-08-09 at 21:51, Ariadne wrote:


What are you talking of star trek? Captain Kirk is definitivly not Captain Picard, but trey`re both captains of the enterprise :P !

Management Style. Kirk is a hands-on guy - like Cuiraecen and his
priests - get down get dirty get it done.

Picard delegates "make it so number one". Others do the work - he
decides.


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[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by Peter Lubke

Management Style. Kirk is a hands-on guy - like Cuiraecen and his priests - get down get dirty get it done.

Picard delegates "make it so number one". Others do the work - he decides.
I understand. But I still don't see your problem with priests of Cuiraécen and healing...

[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2002-08-10 at 23:02, Ariadne wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=816

Ariadne wrote:
[quote]Orginally posted by Peter Lubke




I understand. But I still don`t see your problem with priests of Cuiraécen and healing...

Not all priesthoods should have access (minor or major) to the healing
sphere. In fact to do so makes a sham of the 2e sphere system (else why
not go back to one big universal "all" sphere).

Cuiraecen is not the healing type, his is the power of change, rebirth
and violence. Allowing access to healing is a sop to the bad old days
when clerics were little more than walking cure light wound dispensers
and secondary fighters. Even some greater gods in mythology did not have
the power to heal, or to raise the dead - this is frequently left to
specific identities in a mythos (creating great quest stories - e.g.
journeys to Hades etc).

With respect to standard BR 2e priests of Cuiraecen, they have all the
powers and abilities of warriors except their hit points, and a quite
vast augmentation beyond that. (For paladins even this small restriction
is lifted!) From the point of view of spellcasters and the balance of
power they start off ahead before their spellcasting ability is even
considered!

Certainly Cuiraecens mother (Nesirie) has a healing aspect to her
portfolio. Grief and mourning are part of the healing process, Erik
Avani and Laerme too have some claim to healing. But almost every god in
the pantheon was given major access to healing, the exception being
Belinik, Kriesha, Eloele, and Cuiraecen who got minor access. Note: None
of them were denied access completely.

I don`t see evidence of a great deal of care and thought being put into
the portfolios and design of any of the BR gods. Possibly the greatest
contribution 2e made to D&D was the priest class and their spheres of
influence, and powers etc. Yet the guidelines for priests were blatantly
ignored for all this pantheon., Cuiraecen is not the worst example (Erik
is).

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[geeman]

At 01:41 PM 8/11/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Cuiraecen is not the healing type, his is the power of change, rebirth and
>violence. Allowing access to healing is a sop to the bad old days when
>clerics were little more than walking cure light wound dispensers and
>secondary fighters.

It`s not a very great leap to justify healing spells for Cuiraecen`s
priesthood. It`s sensible that a priesthood that focuses on combat and war
would have access to magics that could heal if for no other reason than
because they would be dealing with injured people on a regular
basis. Being around wounded people--and being more likely to become
wounded oneself--lends itself to healing skills. Healing powers go along
with the war aspect of Cuiraecen because healed priests and warriors can
continue to do battle, while injured and dying ones tend to leave combat
or, worse, lose battles. A god of war whose priests can heal his
worshippers is not only more likely to keep his worshippers alive and
worshipping, but also more likely to have worshippers who win in war.

Aside from there being a simple rationale for war priests healing those
injured in war, not giving priests of Cuiraecen access to such magics A)
penalizes them in relation to most other priesthoods by making them less
useful to the warriors who would supposedly be attracted to the worship of
their god than priests of other deities, and B) locks the priesthood into a
single interpretation when there already are a limited number of BR gods to
pick from, and the very nature of the BR pantheon lends itself to wider
variation and interpretation among the priesthood compared to other
campaign settings.

>I don`t see evidence of a great deal of care and thought being put into
>the portfolios and design of any of the BR gods. Possibly the greatest
>contribution 2e made to D&D was the priest class and their spheres of
>influence, and powers etc. Yet the guidelines for priests were blatantly
>ignored for all this pantheon., Cuiraecen is not the worst example (Erik is).

How do you mean that? How were spheres of influence and powers ignored,
and why is Erik`s priesthood the worst?

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sun, 2002-08-11 at 16:59, Gary wrote:

At 01:41 PM 8/11/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Cuiraecen is not the healing type, his is the power of change, rebirth and
>violence. Allowing access to healing is a sop to the bad old days when
>clerics were little more than walking cure light wound dispensers and
>secondary fighters.

It`s not a very great leap to justify healing spells for Cuiraecen`s
priesthood. It`s sensible that a priesthood that focuses on combat and war
would have access to magics that could heal if for no other reason than
because they would be dealing with injured people on a regular
basis.

Join the army. Then answer that question. There`s no way I`d have a
doctor giving the pep talk before a football match much less a battle --
Dr. Peppy: "It`ll be okay, we have the best medical facilities in this
part of the world, so if you feel a twinge put your hand up and someone
will come as see you as soon as possible, remember don`t overreach - we
need all our soldiers to come out of this alive."

War Priest: "When you fall with valor in holy battle, the Lord will
recognize you valor, bearing you up to be placed in a position of honor
on high where you will be succored by scores of virgins...."

Look, call me strange, but before the battle I want some great hulking
war priest with a nasty manner about him geeing me up. But if I get
wounded, I don`t want Major Payne telling me that sissies lie in bed
with six broken bones and a sword thrust through the guts -- give me
Florence Nightingale (i.e. that cute little priestess of Nesirie with
the soft hands, healing touch etc). So in a society (especially the
Brechts for example) an army would take more than one priest with them.

The issue for a player is that they have to make a choice. Now of course
they want their character to be able to fight like a warrior cast spells
like a wizard thieve like a rogue and have a few special divine powers
thrown in as well. Of course if such a character class existed (okay
well 3e let`s you do it - but sticking to 2e for the purpose of the
discussion), then who would ever want to be anything else but that
class. (except after 5 or 6 years when you realize that the pointless
existence of your 250 level character was nothing but a gimme)

Being around wounded people--and being more likely to become
wounded oneself--lends itself to healing skills.

yes, so? (are you claiming that being around wounded people will give
you magical healing spells and a connection to a god?) [What a player
would like to happen maybe]

Healing powers go along
with the war aspect of Cuiraecen because healed priests and warriors can
continue to do battle, while injured and dying ones tend to leave combat
or, worse, lose battles.

so you`re claiming that priests get to choose which spheres their god
will grant them based on need? Doesn`t the god himself get a say? [what
a player would like to happen maybe]

A god of war whose priests can heal his
worshippers is not only more likely to keep his worshippers alive and
worshipping, but also more likely to have worshippers who win in war.

probably NOT! Belinik would MOST DEFINATELY DISAGREE. Death to the
unworthy? Why does a god want worshipers? Which worshipers does he want?
Alive or dead? Priests or followers? What qualities does he uphold?
[what a player would like to happen maybe]

e.g. How brave could you be knowing (knowing - not just believing!) that
no wound could kill you, all hurts will be healed, -- how brave? Of
course you can! Does Cuiraecen want worshipers who need this kind of
support? -- I didn`t think he was such a wimp.


Aside from there being a simple rationale for war priests healing those
injured in war, not giving priests of Cuiraecen access to such magics A)
penalizes them in relation to most other priesthoods by making them less
useful to the warriors who would supposedly be attracted to the worship of
their god than priests of other deities,

yes, but I don`t think that the priesthood of Cuiraecen is alone in
being unduly blessed with healing powers. Sera? Ruornil? Belinik?

and B) locks the priesthood into a
single interpretation when there already are a limited number of BR gods to
pick from, and the very nature of the BR pantheon lends itself to wider
variation and interpretation among the priesthood compared to other
campaign settings.

You are the one locking priesthoods into "all priests MUST be able to
heal". But.. I`m not locking anything in. There`s been a thread about a
character wishing to serve two gods, a point I find wholly irrelevant
because it`s not his choice. The real question is: What do the gods
think about this? Which of them (if any) will respond to this
half-hearted worship of both? (certainly from separate pantheons -- but
hey let`s have fun with the game) And it`s the same here. The priesthood
isn`t locked into anything: but Cuiraecen is not unlimited, which is (or
should be) the nature of pantheons - else you have mutually competing
godheads and not a united cohesive pantheon with shared but separate
portfolios.


>I don`t see evidence of a great deal of care and thought being put into
>the portfolios and design of any of the BR gods. Possibly the greatest
>contribution 2e made to D&D was the priest class and their spheres of
>influence, and powers etc. Yet the guidelines for priests were blatantly
>ignored for all this pantheon., Cuiraecen is not the worst example (Erik is).

How do you mean that?



How were spheres of influence and powers ignored,

not ignored, abused. the rules on building a balanced priesthood were
ignored.

and why is Erik`s priesthood the worst?

examine the bog-standard druid. He`s better than a 2e designed
priesthood. Examine Eriks priesthood - which is way way way better than
a standard druid.

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[geeman]

At 10:31 PM 8/11/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>>It`s not a very great leap to justify healing spells for Cuiraecen`s
>>priesthood. It`s sensible that a priesthood that focuses on combat and
>>war would have access to magics that could heal if for no other reason
>>than because they would be dealing with injured people on a regular basis.
>
>Join the army. Then answer that question.

I don`t think I`ll need to go so far as to enlist to justify this
particular issue, but if the modern military is your example I think it
works perfectly well for my contention that people engaged in activities in
which they are likely to be injured dedicate a portion of their time to
learning how to heal themselves and their comrades. Soldiers learn at
least the most elementary first aid as part of their basic training. It
goes hand in hand with the job of being a soldier just as healing magics go
hand in hand with the greater dedication of a priest of Cuiraecen.

>There`s no way I`d have a doctor giving the pep talk before a football
>match much less a battle -- Dr. Peppy: "It`ll be okay, we have the best
>medical facilities in this part of the world, so if you feel a twinge put
>your hand up and someone will come as see you as soon as possible,
>remember don`t overreach - we need all our soldiers to come out of this alive."
>
>War Priest: "When you fall with valor in holy battle, the Lord will
>recognize you valor, bearing you up to be placed in a position of honor on
>high where you will be succored by scores of virgins...."

Priests of Cuiraecen having access to some healing magics does not
absolutely lead to this dichotomy in role-playing. Even if it did,
however, both of the above descriptions are aspects of a war priest`s role
in war. Since the purpose of war is to kill one`s enemies the soldiers
alive at the end of a battle are more often the victorious ones, so its
perfectly reasonable that war priests would try to keep soldiers alive and
present that to them before a battle.

>Look, call me strange, but before the battle I want some great hulking war
>priest with a nasty manner about him geeing me up. But if I get wounded, I
>don`t want Major Payne telling me that sissies lie in bed with six broken
>bones and a sword thrust through the guts -- give me Florence Nightingale
>(i.e. that cute little priestess of Nesirie with the soft hands, healing
>touch etc). So in a society (especially the Brechts for example) an army
>would take more than one priest with them.

There`s no other interpretation that is reasonable? You don`t want a
battle hardened sergeant major makes sure the soldiers are all healthy
before battle? You don`t want a medic on the battlefield who can patch you
up and let you get back to fighting? You don`t want a field hospital to
perform intensive care? You don`t even want a comrade who can apply
life-saving first aid? Triage and emergency medicine have no place in
war? Healing magics for priests of Cuiraecen does not turn them into
smarmy nurses in white frocks and those weird origami hats.

>The issue for a player is that they have to make a choice. Now of course
>they want their character to be able to fight like a warrior cast spells
>like a wizard thieve like a rogue and have a few special divine powers
>thrown in as well. Of course if such a character class existed (okay well
>3e let`s you do it - but sticking to 2e for the purpose of the
>discussion), then who would ever want to be anything else but that class.
>(except after 5 or 6 years when you realize that the pointless existence
>of your 250 level character was nothing but a gimme)

I`m not sure I`m following your logic there. More versatile character
classes somehow wind up being pointless? In any case, I think you`re
argument throws the bath water, the bathtub, the kitchen sink and most of
the rest of the household fixtures out along with the baby. If allowing
priests of Cuiraecen minor access to healing spells somehow leads to
pointless "gimme" 250th level characters then there`s very little that
won`t as well. If that`s the problem then I think it has little or nothing
to do with the situation at hand.

I do agree, however, that the issue is for a player to make a choice. In
order to make a real choice, however, they need to have options, and the
powers/abilities of priests of Cuiraecen (along with any other character
class) should be broad enough to allow for many role-playing choices for
players, not lock them into the DM`s interpretation.

>>Being around wounded people--and being more likely to become wounded
>>oneself--lends itself to healing skills.
>
>yes, so? (are you claiming that being around wounded people will give
>you magical healing spells and a connection to a god?) [What a player
>would like to happen maybe]

No, being around wounded people alone will not give you magical healing
spells and a connection to a god. If one dedicates oneself to a god of
war, however, AND does so in a world where magical healing spells exist AND
one is around wounded people as part of that dedication, then it`s not at
all a leap to assume one would gain healing abilities. In fact, it follows
directly.

>>Healing powers go along with the war aspect of Cuiraecen because healed
>>priests and warriors can continue to do battle, while injured and dying
>>ones tend to leave combat or, worse, lose battles.
>
>so you`re claiming that priests get to choose which spheres their god will
>grant them based on need? Doesn`t the god himself get a say? [what a
>player would like to happen maybe]

No, that`s not what I`m claiming. Gods grant spheres based on need. I`m
saying that the healing sphere of magic goes with the divine war
portfolio. Healing is not the opposite of war. Peace is the opposite of
war. There is, however, little need for healing in peace because people
are less likely to be injured by peace (despite the contentions of certain
hawkish politicians) than war, so a god dedicated to war should grant at
least some access to healing spells because healed warriors are more often
victorious than dead or dying ones.

>>A god of war whose priests can heal his worshippers is not only more
>>likely to keep his worshippers alive and worshipping, but also more
>>likely to have worshippers who win in war.
>
>probably NOT! Belinik would MOST DEFINATELY DISAGREE. Death to the
>unworthy? Why does a god want worshipers? Which worshipers does he want?
>Alive or dead? Priests or followers? What qualities does he uphold?
>[what a player would like to happen maybe]

Well, since in the Rulebook Belenik also grants minor access to the healing
sphere, so I think the intention was that he has the same dedication to
keeping his worshippers living as Cuiraecen does.

>e.g. How brave could you be knowing (knowing - not just believing!) that
>no wound could kill you, all hurts will be healed, -- how brave? Of
>course you can! Does Cuiraecen want worshipers who need this kind of
>support? -- I didn`t think he was such a wimp.

First of all, allowing war priests minor healing magics does not mean that
no wound can kill you. Secondly, I think it`s perfectly reasonable that
soldiers will be more likely to risk their safety if they know they can be
healed, so war priests with healing powers would encourage bravery on the
battlefield. Third, allowing oneself to be healed is not wimpy. Even the
most extreme warrior cultures will allow themselves to be healed after and
even during combat.

>>Aside from there being a simple rationale for war priests healing those
>>injured in war, not giving priests of Cuiraecen access to such magics A)
>>penalizes them in relation to most other priesthoods by making them less
>>useful to the warriors who would supposedly be attracted to the worship
>>of their god than priests of other deities,
>
>yes, but I don`t think that the priesthood of Cuiraecen is alone in
>being unduly blessed with healing powers. Sera? Ruornil? Belinik?

What`s wrong with healing spells for priests of the goddess of
prosperity? Being prosperous isn`t related to being healthy? As for
Ruornil, his healing spells are easily justified by his opposition of the
Shadow World. Not only does that lead to the same martial justification
for healing as Cuiraecen (and Belinik) but also healing spells serve to
illustrate his opposition of the the undead that the SW represents.

>>and B) locks the priesthood into a single interpretation when there
>>already are a limited number of BR gods to pick from, and the very nature
>>of the BR pantheon lends itself to wider variation and interpretation
>>among the priesthood compared to other campaign settings.
>
>You are the one locking priesthoods into "all priests MUST be able to
>heal". But.. I`m not locking anything in.

If priests of Cuiraecen have access to healing magics then they can choose
to use those powers as part of their interpretation of what the role of a
war priest is, or they could adopt a more extreme viewpoint and choose not
to. Access to healing magics makes that a choice. Not having access to
healing magics locks them into the more extreme interpretation. That is
also a role-playing decision that IMO should be left up to players. Not
having access to healing spells means that players who want to play
characters who worship Cuiraecen (and, apparently, most of the other gods)
have to do so according to your personal interpretation, which gives them
much fewer options not only in their character`s abilities, but also in
their role-playing options. Without healing magics players who play
priests of Cuiraecen are funnelled into this extreme interpretation of war,
which is not only far from the only attitude/interpretation possible, but
I`d suggest it`s not even the common interpretation of what war is. If
there`s a particular thing you`re trying to emphasize as DM then it makes
sense to do that kind of thing, but unless you have a specific purpose in
doing so its the kind of thing that not only removes a major aspect the
versatility of the BR pantheon and but also limits the role-playing options
of players.

>There`s been a thread about a character wishing to serve two gods, a point
>I find wholly irrelevant because it`s not his choice. The real question
>is: What do the gods think about this? Which of them (if any) will respond
>to this half-hearted worship of both? (certainly from separate pantheons -- but
>hey let`s have fun with the game) And it`s the same here. The priesthood
>isn`t locked into anything: but Cuiraecen is not unlimited, which is (or
>should be) the nature of pantheons - else you have mutually competing
>godheads and not a united cohesive pantheon with shared but separate
>portfolios.

Do you have an example of a pantheon that does not include competition
between the gods of exactly the sort you`re suggesting should be the RPG
standard, do you? Gods represent some sort of abstract ideal with is often
very general and overlapping with other abstract ideals represented by
other gods. You could go for an interpretation of a pantheon that was much
more carefully delineated, but I think it`d be more than a little contrived
and not the sort of thing that most people would find useful.

>>How were spheres of influence and powers ignored,
>
>not ignored, abused. the rules on building a balanced priesthood were
>ignored.

Do you have some examples that relate to this issue? I mean, certain ones
I can think of (effective magician levels for priests of Ruornil) but I`m
trying to see how this relates to the issue of healing magics for priests
of Cuiraecen and I`m not making the connection.

>>and why is Erik`s priesthood the worst?
>
>examine the bog-standard druid. He`s better than a 2e designed priesthood.
>Examine Eriks priesthood - which is way way way better than a standard druid.

Well, I don`t know that the druid is better than the 2e specialty
priesthood necessarily since that was a pretty open ended subject. One
could design specialty priests that were more powerful than the 2e
druid. In fact, the druid was a specialty priest if one takes the text
under "Balancing It All" in the 2e PHB into consideration.

Erik`s priesthood getting studded leather, 25% hide in shadows, 33% move
silently and animal empathy as a ranger +3 levels higher than their current
level is better than the standard 2e druid, but I don`t think it merits
"way way way" better.

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Mon, 2002-08-12 at 02:13, Gary wrote:

At 10:31 PM 8/11/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:





>>How were spheres of influence and powers ignored,
>
>not ignored, abused. the rules on building a balanced priesthood were
>ignored.

Do you have some examples that relate to this issue? I mean, certain ones
I can think of (effective magician levels for priests of Ruornil) but I`m
trying to see how this relates to the issue of healing magics for priests
of Cuiraecen and I`m not making the connection.

Priests of Cuir. combat abilities: way beyond "good", let`s call them
"excellent"
Official suggested number of major spheres for a major god with merely
"good" combat abilities: 2
Actual number of spheres for this lesser god: 5

(my suggested number of spheres for gods with excellent combat
abilities: none)
(by that I mean no priest should have "excellent" combat abilities, so
as to avoid having no spell spheres.)


>>and why is Erik`s priesthood the worst?
>
>examine the bog-standard druid. He`s better than a 2e designed priesthood.
>Examine Eriks priesthood - which is way way way better than a standard druid.

Well, I don`t know that the druid is better than the 2e specialty
priesthood necessarily since that was a pretty open ended subject. One
could design specialty priests that were more powerful than the 2e
druid. In fact, the druid was a specialty priest if one takes the text
under "Balancing It All" in the 2e PHB into consideration.

He is but ... designed to be backward compatible with 1e druids. Used to
have his own set of spells and much compensation paid for the loss of
what was superior spell-casting ability (cf Clerics)


Erik`s priesthood getting studded leather, 25% hide in shadows, 33% move
silently and animal empathy as a ranger +3 levels higher than their current
level is better than the standard 2e druid, but I don`t think it merits
"way way way" better.

Spells spheres: gained summoning (major), protection(minor) {, and
Travellers(ToM)}

The reality is that not all spheres are equal. Animal and Plant are so
big because of the inclusion of the old 1st Ed druid spells into those
spheres - so in fact they don`t lose out there. But Elemental and
summoning are the other two "biggies", and protection is no minor
addition (pardon the pun).

Take Cuiraecen`s alleged spheres for example: guardian is not really
worth counting it`s so weak. Combat is a so-so choice for a priest with
good combat powers. i.e. Who needs spiritual hammer when you have full
armor and a big sword? Chant is a support combat spell not a frontline
warrior spell. Weather is pretty appropriate of course but has only a
few spells in it. But Elemental Air or Water) is a powerful major
access.

My choice for Cuiraecen: (major: Elemental Air and Water, Weather
(minor: Combat, Protection)
Powers: (1) lightning and cold resistance - high power (1) hit points
from d10 + full con bonuses - medium power

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[Birthright-L]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Gary wrote:

> Being around wounded people--and being more likely to become
> wounded oneself--lends itself to healing skills.

On these grounds I would give healing spells to wizards before priests of
Cuiraecen, as since wizards have half or less as many hit points, when
they get wounded they are more likely to be wounded seriously.


Ryan Caveney

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[geeman]

At 10:22 AM 8/12/2002 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:

> > Being around wounded people--and being more likely to become
> > wounded oneself--lends itself to healing skills.
>
>On these grounds I would give healing spells to wizards before priests of
>Cuiraecen, as since wizards have half or less as many hit points, when
>they get wounded they are more likely to be wounded seriously.

Losing hit points is more serious for wizards because they have fewer, but
they aren`t necessarily engaged in combat the way a priest of a war god is,
nor are they normally assumed to have to learn healing techniques as part
of their study. I`ve always found the separation of divine and arcane
magics to be somewhat arbitrary, so I don`t see any problem with wizards
casting healing spells. However, the point though isn`t whether a class
might need it, but whether or not war priests would have it as part of
their emphasis. Healing goes with war, so it`s sensible that priests who
worship a war god would have such abilities.

Gary

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:17 AM


> [priests] are they normally assumed to have to learn healing techniques
> as part of their study. [But,] I don`t see any problem with wizards
> casting healing spells.

My first BR character was a necromancer who was a physician. I paid the
extra penalties to purchase the Heal proficiency, &c, &c. For a character
like that, I`d certainly want to see some access to genuine healing and so
forth. But, I also think that healing is more than just the manipulation of
arcane forces, life from lifelessness is the purvue of the gods. Without
requiring a multi-classing wizard/cleric, I developed the following feat:

Healer [General]
Your arcane spellcaster is trained to heal.
Prerequisite: Spellcaster level 3rd+
Benefit: You are allowed to cast Cure Light Wounds as a 2nd level spell, and
Heal is a class skill. Ruornil or Avani provide the divine healing.

This solves the problem as far as I`m concerned. My necromancer would have
been a viable physician with cure lights as a 2nd level spell, and access to
Heal as a class skill. I put wizard/clerics in a different catagory.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 04:37 PM 8/12/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Healer [General]
>Your arcane spellcaster is trained to heal.
>Prerequisite: Spellcaster level 3rd+
>Benefit: You are allowed to cast Cure Light Wounds as a 2nd level spell, and
>Heal is a class skill. Ruornil or Avani provide the divine healing.

This kind of thing is probably also a sensible solution to the BR dilemma
of what spells elves should have access to since the published materials
bar them from divine spellcasting, so they don`t have access to many of the
nature oriented spells that would be in keeping with their culture and
emphasis. By generalizing the feat a little bit it could be used to give
elven wizards access to Animal Friendship, for example.

Gary

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[Ariadne]

I agree completely with geeman (gary).

No god (even a war god) wants a sea of dead worshipers, so they grant healing spells (minor access to the healing sphere is bad enough). Even if they would not grant them, there would be other methods (healing and diagnostic skills, herbalism, etc.), the priest would have. As I already said, in a high level campaign a "cure light and moderate wounds" is something like a drop on a hot stone...

By the way, the problem with to few major spheres is a general birthright problem. If you view Yondalla, Garl Glittergold or Moradin they have major access to nearly any sphere. A cerilian human god has in the middle 7 major and some minor spheres (the only one with a few more is Ruornil with 9 major)! You shouldn't restrict these few spheres, they already have!! If Haelyn has only 2 good (as Peter Lubke says) then it is a designer problem. Cuiraécen has the luck with the major access to the elemental and weather sphere, that's all.

[Birthright-L]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Gary wrote:

> This kind of thing is probably also a sensible solution to the BR dilemma
> of what spells elves should have access to since the published materials
> bar them from divine spellcasting, so they don`t have access to many of the
> nature oriented spells that would be in keeping with their culture and
> emphasis. By generalizing the feat a little bit it could be used to give
> elven wizards access to Animal Friendship, for example.

I prefer to go the other way -- start by giving Sidhelien spellcasters
every spell having anything to do with plants or animals, and then modify
from there. I think all druid + some wizard is a better fit to what they
ought to be doing than all wizard + some druid. Still, the druid list has
a few too many fire-based atack spells; I would be tempted to consider
most of these magical pseudofire that burns only animals, not plants (and
if I remember the Sovereign Stone book aright, that would even be cheaper
than the affects-all version...), but that might be overkill.


Ryan Caveney

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