Continental Races

[Magian]

If I was to add a few settings into Birthright like Kara-Tur, The Horde,
Al-Qadim, and Maztica what would you fellas on the list think of the races
already in the settings? Are elves a Cerilia specific race or are they
elsewhere? How about dwarves and orcs?

These settings would be continents separate from Cerilia and Anduiria if I
was to use them. Travelers are always possible but I am talking about
indigenous to the settings.

ciao,

Paul

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[Lord Eldred]

Magian,

I would think that there could be elves elsewhere but they may be different than the ones in Cerilia. Cerilian elves are unique.

I can't think of any reason why dwarves and orcs would be any different anywhere else. Unless they have unique features in the settings you are bringing into the game.

[Ariadne]

There are Orcs in Cerilia??? In my oppionion there are only Orogs there!

Otherwhise I agree with Lord Eldred, cerilian elves are unique and cerilian dwarves are very similar to dwarves of other settings.

[A_dark]

I tend to agree (for a change) with Ariadne. I don't think there are orcs, at least not many orcs.

Also, dwarves are unique too. They don't have the standard PHB abilities and they are considered to be akin to earth elementals.

[Lord Eldred]

Are you suggesting then that in the settings that he brings in as new continents he should eliminate orcs?

[blitzmacher]

I wouldn't think so, not if your view is that elves are strictly cerilian, then why wouldn't orcs be strictly what ever continent you bring into the BR world?

[soudhadies]

Orcs are a possibility on continent. I also believe that dwarves could be as well, but they would have to be related in some way to the Cerilian variety to make it plausible that the same race exists in two different places. Thus the dwarves should aquire the stony mass and elemental affinity of cerilian dwarves.

Elves however are native to Cerilia itself. If they got off the continent then their spread should be justified somehow. One possible period would be during the golden age of the Elven empire.

The question arises though, of how well Cerilian elves fit into the other campaigns?

[Lord Eldred]

If you look at humans on earth you will find a great variety of looks, why couldn't elves and other races have different looks depending on where they originated from...thus you would have the Cerilian elves and you could have Drow on another continent.

The same goes for the other races!

[geeman]

At 07:08 AM 7/21/2002 +0200, Bearcat wrote:

>Orcs are a possibility on continent.

Back in the 2e version of D&D (when BR was published) orogs were a subrace
of orcs. That doesn`t mean there need be orcs anywhere on Aebrynis, but it
does make for a better justification for that race`s inclusion than, say,
kobolds.

>Elves however are native to Cerilia itself. If they got off the continent
>then their spread should be justified somehow. One possible period would
>be during the golden age of the Elven empire.

Are you basing this on some reference from the published materials? Most
of the text regarding elves seems to take pains to describe them as
"Cerilian elves" or Sidhelien, differentiating them from any standard D&D
elf but also any other possible elven races on Aebrynis who may have a
totally different attitude/culture.

Gary

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[Lord Grave]

>
> Elves however are native to Cerilia itself. If they got off
> the continent then their spread should be justified somehow.
> One possible period would be during the golden age of the
> Elven empire.
>
> The question arises though, of how well Cerilian elves fit
> into the other campaigns?

My idea is that majority of Elves fled to Thaele.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!
To Thaele? Where the Rjurik have already created some settlements?
No, I don´t think the majority has fled Cerilia - the Trautha (the
sidhelien of what is now Talinie) have been oblireated by the Anuireans
as the PS of Talinie says. I also don´t think that they would leave
their beloved forest before massive losses and not to Thale (which I see
much as Grönland (Greenland)?) .
bye
Michael
*******
Milos Rasic wrote:

>>...
>>The question arises though, of how well Cerilian elves fit
>>into the other campaigns?
>>
>
>My idea is that majority of Elves fled to Thaele.
>
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[soudhadies]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

If you look at humans on earth you will find a great variety of looks, why couldn't elves and other races have different looks depending on where they originated from...thus you would have the Cerilian elves and you could have Drow on another continent.

The same goes for the other races!

Yes there is certainly a great variety in appearence an culture among human populations on earth, but on a species level we are all the same; variations on the same theme.

The same should hold true for any variant elf or dwarf cultures. The majority of differention should arise as cultural variation. Physiological variation should be relatively minor. All I'm saying is that if a dwarf is placed somewhere else on the planet, it should should somehow be related to Cerilian Dwarves. Otherwise it is just another short biped.

[soudhadies]

Orginally posted by geeman

That doesn`t mean there need be orcs anywhere on Aebrynis, but it
does make for a better justification for that race`s inclusion than, say,
kobolds.


Except that the books make it clear that orcs don't exist in cerilia, and I believe that kobolds are included in monster list in the rulebook.




Are you basing this on some reference from the published materials? Most
of the text regarding elves seems to take pains to describe them as
"Cerilian elves" or Sidhelien, differentiating them from any standard D&D
elf but also any other possible elven races on Aebrynis who may have a
totally different attitude/culture.



PH: Tuarhievel, although it may just be legend and rumor at the DM's discretion of course. But if elves were not native to cerilia where would they come from?

[geeman]

At 05:10 AM 7/22/2002 +0200, Bearcat wrote:

>>That doesn`t mean there need be orcs anywhere on Aebrynis, but it does
>>make for a better justification for that race`s inclusion than, say, kobolds.
>
>Except that the books make it clear that orcs don`t exist in cerilia, and
>I believe that kobolds are included in monster list in the rulebook.

I`m talking about other races on Aebrynis not Cerilia alone. Orcs don`t
exist on Cerilia, but could exist elsewhere on the planet. Kobolds are
mentioned on the list of monsters that might be encountered in
Cerilia--though they don`t appear anywhere else that I`ve seen and
certainly don`t exist in the numbers that orogs do, but my point is that
since orogs were considered a subrace of orcs when BR was written there`s
more of a connection to including them in a list of non-Cerilian races than
kobolds (who only appear in that list of "maybes.")

>>Are you basing this on some reference from the published materials?
>
>PH: Tuarhievel, although it may just be legend and rumor at the DM`s
>discretion of course. But if elves were not native to cerilia where would
>they come from?

Where in the Tuarhieval sourcebook? It says that elves sprang "from the
union of earth, water, fire, and air" at some "Unknown" time, and that
there are "a dozen different elven creation myths" and it describes the
history of Cerilian elves, but where does it indicate that they originated
in Cerilia? (I could have missed it.)

Gary

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[Kappenkriaucheran]

@ Lord Grave: IMO the Sidhelien would rather die than flee to Thaele, as they are described as the children of Cerilia (more or less). Besides, the Sidhelien are not a seafaring race. I can´t remember having seen an elven navy anywhere :) .
Thaele could be a refuge for some giants or cold-loving dragons.

[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Are you suggesting then that in the settings that he brings in as new continents he should eliminate orcs?


No, but I would change orcs simply into orogs (I don't know what they get as ability modifiers, but these can't be so far away from orcs). Use the other campaigns, but discribe orcs as orogs (it is Birthright and you have few work with it, I think)!

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Bearcat


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

If you look at humans on earth you will find a great variety of looks, why couldn't elves and other races have different looks depending on where they originated from...thus you would have the Cerilian elves and you could have Drow on another continent.

The same goes for the other races!

Yes there is certainly a great variety in appearence an culture among human populations on earth, but on a species level we are all the same; variations on the same theme.

The same should hold true for any variant elf or dwarf cultures. The majority of differention should arise as cultural variation. Physiological variation should be relatively minor. All I'm saying is that if a dwarf is placed somewhere else on the planet, it should should somehow be related to Cerilian Dwarves. Otherwise it is just another short biped.

I am not sure that there are major differences between the races of Birthright and that of others that are physiological differences. There are minor physiological differences.

[Azrai]

I think it makes no sense to discuss about orcs. there are no orcs on the known continents and they do not fit in the Birthright flair. on new continents there could be everything ...

one took also into account that the goblins are different than in other campaign worlds. they are much stronger and the race contains bugbears and hobgoblins.

[Magian]

If I was to introduce a new setting into Aebyrnis alongside Cerilia and Anduria and use the idea that the elves have fled Cerilia I would go along with a more Evermeet-like idea than having them move to a savage north-like area of that of Thaele. The idea has been in my mind for this though. If elves where to flee who says they would need boats or a navy anyway?

As for the orcs debate if I was to substitute the orogs race for the orcs race in the settings mentioned in the initial post there would be a great difference in ecology since orcs are not subterrainean in these settings. This could have drastic effects on the settings. Keep in mind these settings are not Cerilia so we don't have to make them like Cerilia so there can be many differences. Just like the difference of the european dragon from the chinese dragon. One is evil and the other is beneficial.

The two problems I have come up with so far are the elves and orcs of these lands if brought into the world of Aebrynis. Orcs I think I can link into the setting as a weaker and more human-like in behavior cousin to the orogs. The elves, especially in the Zakaharan setting would be most difficult since they intermingle with humans and call no place their own exclusively.

Right now I am thinking that maybe just eliminating the elves from the setting completly except for perhaps bringing them into an Evermeet sort of Isle realm. Been thinking perhaps that would explain the Tuarannwn realm in Vosgaard. The ghosts are just the fact that the land misses the elves.

As for the orcs I am not yet sure if what I want to bring in actually has orcs as part of its setting but the open debate is helping.

[Birthright-L]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
> As for the orcs I am not yet sure if what I want to bring in actually
> has orcs as part of its setting but the open debate is helping.

I use orcs in my campaign, but I`m sneaky about it. I changed their
appearance a bit, gave them some cloven hoof feet like the Gorgon, and
their backstory is that they are men corrupted by Raesene via dark
magicks and intermingling with orogs. Freaked out my players, too.

P "Is it a goblin?"
DM "No, you`ve seen goblins."
P "Is it an orog?"
DM "Smaller than an orog."
P "Is it an orc?"
P2 "There`s no orcs in birthright!"

Heh. It`s good to be evil.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Kappenkriaucheran]

Orginally posted by Magian
If elves where to flee who says they would need boats or a navy anyway?


Of course the elves could just grow wings and fly away ;) .


Orginally posted by Magian
Been thinking perhaps that would explain the Tuarannwn realm in Vosgaard. The ghosts are just the fact that the land misses the elves.


Have you read Blood Spawn or Tribes of the Heartless Waste?
Tuar Annwn is explained in THW as having been relocated to the Shadow World, which is bad for the elves since there are many monsters that prefer them as lunch, like the Cwn Annwn in BS.

@ Birthright-L:
LOL, that´s funny.

[Magian]

Yeah I have read all the products printed for Birthright even the comic book but that doesn't mean I have to take that as cannon for my campaign.

Simply put I don't really like the idea of elves in the shadow world and such. Of course I have my reasons just like the writers had their reasons for writing such things.

[soudhadies]

Orginally posted by geeman

At 05:10 AM 7/22/2002 +0200, Bearcat wrote:

Where in the Tuarhieval sourcebook? It says that elves sprang "from the
union of earth, water, fire, and air" at some "Unknown" time, and that
there are "a dozen different elven creation myths" and it describes the
history of Cerilian elves, but where does it indicate that they originated
in Cerilia? (I could have missed it.)


I don't have it with me, but a pond or lake located in Tuarhievel is said to be the point of origin of the elves if I am not mistaken.

[geeman]

At 11:28 PM 7/24/2002 +0200, Bearcat wrote:

>I don`t have it with me, but a pond or lake located in Tuarhievel is said
>to be the point of origin of the elves if I am not mistaken.

Ah, OK. I found it. Thanks.

The lake is Dhoenaghmiere, and "one legend holds that this is the site from
where the elven race sprang, a place where earth, water, air, and fire all
converged, sundering the hill when the elves sprang from the elements" p7.

I don`t know that I`d take that reference as proof that elves are native to
Cerilia, though. The same text says that there are "At least a dozen
different elven creation myths" p4. Aside from the text being one of
dozen(s) extant, elves were created 18,000+ years before the present era of
the BR setting, even a long time ago for the immortal elves. Even if elves
did spring into existence at Lake D, that doesn`t mean the act of creating
elves only occurred at that one spot. Different races of elves could have
been created simultaneously on other continents.

Gary

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[Trithemius]

Bearcat:
> I don`t have it with me, but a pond or lake located in
> Tuarhievel is said to be the point of origin of the elves if
> I am not mistaken.

I suspect that the major proponents of that theory are the sidhelien of
Tuarhievel.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[kgauck]

> Bearcat wrote:
>
> I don`t have it with me, but a pond or lake located in Tuarhievel is
> said to be the point of origin of the elves if I am not mistaken.

I always take this kind of thing with hunk of salt. I would imagine that
there might well be a dozen places where the local elves claim all elvenkind
originated. When it says in the Coullabhie, Rhuannach, and Tuar Annwn
sourcebooks, then you know where elves originated.

I think the PS`s are loaded with boosterism.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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