Rhoubhe Manslayer writeup comments

[Ellendael Nightstalker]

Who is responsible for the new writeup on the front page? I know I can comment there but I'd rather put up some comments here first.

1. Why is Rhoubhe a 2nd level Ranger? It seems odd to take a second level of a class where you get all the goodies at 1st. If he's to be a Ranger (for the human favored enemy), I'd suggest either 1st level or 5th (with Goblins being the second favored enemy)

2 Your writeup says that Rhoubhe has access to wizards and clerics. Exactly which clerics would those be? Seeing as how Rhoubhe associates nearly exclusively with elves it seems odd that he would know many clerics. (although there is that encounter with the veiled sisters alluded to in the book of priestcraft)

3. I find it curious that with all his magical access (see above) that none of Rhoubhe's items have the 'human bane' ability. My writeup of Rhoubhe makes Heartspiller and his bow both Human Bane weapons.

[geeman]

A couple of additional comments regarding a 3e version of RM:

1. The multi-classing mechanic in 3e is completely different from
2e. Because of the way multi-classing worked in 2e, Rhoubhe is a 16/15
fighter/wizard because that`s how his experience points would have been
split. He`d have between 4,000,000 and 4,500,000 xp, half of which would
put him at 16th level as a fighter and 15th level as a wizard. In 3e
there`s no need for these levels to be "balanced" like that, so it`s
reasonable that those levels could be different.

2. This isn`t a big deal, but Rhoubhe is probably around 2,000 years
old. "As a young elf in Southern Aelvinnwode on the banks of the River
Maesil, Rhuobhe Manslayer met his first humans" according to Blood Enemies,
and then the text goes on to describe the brief period of human/elf
alliance against the goblins. Now, it`s doesn`t give an exact date, but
the humans began arriving around 2,000 years before the opening of the BR
setting, and who knows how old a "young elf" is? Could be 20, could be
200.... In any case 2,000 is a more accurate figure for describing how old
Rhoubhe is than "well over 1,000".

3. I don`t know how the miscellaneous magic items listed were determined,
but it appears to have been a random decision, resulting in a rather odd
inventory. An iron flask with a rakshasa in it doesn`t sound very BR or
much like something Rhoubhe would have lying around. He also has a whole
list of weapons and armor beyond those in his stat block that are kind of
superfluous. Surely Rhoubhe has subordinate who can use those items? The
additional magic items might better be described as being part of his
realm`s resources rather than items he`s got stored in some personal vault
somewhere.

4. Damage reduction 20/+3?

5. I don`t have a conversion manual around, so I don`t know if his ability
scores are translated according to any standard. Does a 19 strength in 2e
get converted to a 20 strength in 3e? Aren`t other ability scores
similarly shifted? It`s been quite a while since I did any 2e to 3e
conversions....

6. There are Administration and Strategy skills noted in his write
up. Anyone know what these are based on?

7. No spell list?

8. Rhoubhe should have more like 207 hit points not 186 according to he
levels in that description.

16th level fighter=92.5 (10hp at first level + 82.5 (15 x 5.5))
15th level wizard=37.5 (15 x 2.5)
2nd level ranger=11 (2 x 5.5)
Constitution=66

9. The Sense Humans ability should be outlined bit more. Rhoubhe
personally can sense whenever a human sets foot in his territory?

10. As Nightstalker noted, his ranger levels are a bit of a departure,
though I guess it makes sense that the Manslayer should have humans as a
favored enemy. (He fought goblins for a long time too, though, so they
seem apt also.) But he doesn`t need ambidexterity/two weapon fighting
since he carried a shield, though that`s kind of one of the perennial
problems with the 3e ranger, I guess....

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 01:04, Gary wrote:



8. Rhoubhe should have more like 207 hit points not 186 according to he
levels in that description.

16th level fighter=92.5 (10hp at first level + 82.5 (15 x 5.5))
15th level wizard=37.5 (15 x 2.5)
2nd level ranger=11 (2 x 5.5)
Constitution=66


Wowie! what a boost from 2nd Edition -- I just want one of them munchkin
3e characters (sarcasm).

In BE he`s listed as 88 HP - still way way way above average for a
F16W15 with a 15 CON!
44% higher in fact.

(or)
F16W15 = (F16HP + W15HP)/2 = 61
F16 = 9d10 + 7*3 + 9*1 = 79.5
W15 = 11d4 + 4*1 + 11*1 = 42.5

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[geeman]

At 12:48 PM 7/11/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

> 8. Rhoubhe should have more like 207 hit points not 186 according to he
> levels in that description.
>
>Wowie! what a boost from 2nd Edition -- I just want one of them munchkin
>3e characters (sarcasm).
>
>In BE he`s listed as 88 HP - still way way way above average for a
>F16W15 with a 15 CON!
>44% higher in fact.

I always hated that about -2e.... Multi-classed characters were strangely
fragile.

Speaking of which, Rhoubhe could actually have up to 306 hit points since
BR characters have access to the Training domain action that allows them to
add a hp up to their maximum. He`s been around for 2,000 years, so he`s
had something like 24,000 opportunities to do so....

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 13:20, Gary wrote:


I always hated that about -2e.... Multi-classed characters were strangely
fragile.

Not really, take the point of view that a multi-classed fighter-mage is
in fact a fighting mage. In other words a superior mage, with more HP,
greater combat skill and the ability to wear armor (and cast spells at
the same time!). It`s very true that such a character is a poor fighter,
but that`s not the point - you can be a straight fighter if that`s your
intention.

But generally, multi-classing and dual-classing is handled badly.


Speaking of which, Rhoubhe could actually have up to 306 hit points since
BR characters have access to the Training domain action that allows them to
add a hp up to their maximum. He`s been around for 2,000 years, so he`s
had something like 24,000 opportunities to do so....

Rhuobhe should have many more source levels scattered through Taeghas,
Boeruine, Avanil, Tuornen etc --- 2,000 years of hating humans and
that`s his magic network -- pshaw!!


Gary

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[Birthright-L]

I have to say that following the discussion on the conversion of Rhoubhe has
undermined my confidence in the quality of the 3e conversion. I am sitting
here asking if the converters know exactly what they are doing.

Sure Rhoubhe is a 2e F16/W15, but the official stated rule for converting
characters to 3e is that you divide their secondary class level by three.
This would make Rhoubhe F16/W5. Now you might think he should be a more
powerful wizard than this and I would agree. But the character level limit
should stay to preserve a balanced approach. He shouldn`t have more than 21
levels.

To do otherwise seems to show a lack of understanding of the strengths and
weaknesses of multiclassing between the two editions.

Unless, of course, the converters are powering up everybody in a similar
way. That would help preserve balance but destroy any interest I have in
their work :)

John

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 13:57, John Harbord wrote:

I have to say that following the discussion on the conversion of Rhoubhe has
undermined my confidence in the quality of the 3e conversion. I am sitting
here asking if the converters know exactly what they are doing.

Sure Rhoubhe is a 2e F16/W15, but the official stated rule for converting
characters to 3e is that you divide their secondary class level by three.
This would make Rhoubhe F16/W5. Now you might think he should be a more
powerful wizard than this and I would agree. But the character level limit
should stay to preserve a balanced approach. He shouldn`t have more than 21
levels.

To do otherwise seems to show a lack of understanding of the strengths and
weaknesses of multiclassing between the two editions.

You should probably consider that Rhuobhe`s secondary class is his
fighter class. So that he becomes a W15+F5. Even this is incorrect
really, because the balance of classes in 2e beyond name level is wonky.
Even more correct would be W12+F3 -- as you should consider on a strict
geometric scale that he is F11W12.


Unless, of course, the converters are powering up everybody in a similar
way. That would help preserve balance but destroy any interest I have in
their work :)

One rather gets this impression.


John

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:20 PM


> I always hated that about -2e.... Multi-classed characters were strangely
> fragile.

That and I thought it was odd that after a certain point, you only gain a
small amount of hit points. Unless you dual or multi-classed. The longer
2e receeds into the past the more I find it a pale comparison to 3e, except
where priests are concerned. :-)

Conversion of abominations should reflect their role in the setting more
than a strict adhearance to the logic of conversion or where a living
character might be converted. The rational for the multiclassing reduction
in the conversion is that the experience accumulated in a 2e multiclass got
the advantage of starting over from the begining in a second class. In 3e,
xp`s are based on character level, not class level. But Rhoubhe isn`t a
character converted like that, he`s an opponant, and he needs to have a
certain level of power to represent the same level of threat that he did as
a 2e abomination. Sure it may have been harder for the Manslayer to get
those all those 31 levels in e3 than it would be in 2e, but as Gary has
pointed out, he`s had time to do that, and the setting is better off with a
powerful Manslayer than it is with a Rhoubhe just slightly more powerful
than Darien Avan or Aeric Boeruine.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 15:52, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:20 PM


> I always hated that about -2e.... Multi-classed characters were strangely
> fragile.

That and I thought it was odd that after a certain point, you only gain a
small amount of hit points.

XP progression at that point became linear. Rather than gain a random
(but potentially larger) amount of HP for geometrically increasing XP,
the gain was smaller against a linearly similar amount of XP. But
totally unbalanced, it would have been fairer and more consistent to
give NO HP beyond that point at all.

Unless you dual or multi-classed.

No difference.

The longer
2e receeds into the past the more I find it a pale comparison to 3e, except
where priests are concerned. :-)

Ah, priests - yes, the shining jewel of 2e (and I mean that in all
sincerity).


Conversion of abominations should reflect their role in the setting more
than a strict adhearance to the logic of conversion or where a living
character might be converted.

Yes. Rhuobhe is a character that went through a change long before he
became an awnsheghlien, so he`s very much more than the elf he was,
although at the same time he`s much less an elf than he was too.

The rational for the multiclassing reduction
in the conversion is that the experience accumulated in a 2e multiclass got
the advantage of starting over from the begining in a second class. In 3e,
xp`s are based on character level, not class level. But Rhoubhe isn`t a
character converted like that, he`s an opponant, and he needs to have a
certain level of power to represent the same level of threat that he did as
a 2e abomination. Sure it may have been harder for the Manslayer to get
those all those 31 levels in e3 than it would be in 2e, but as Gary has
pointed out, he`s had time to do that, and the setting is better off with a
powerful Manslayer than it is with a Rhoubhe just slightly more powerful
than Darien Avan or Aeric Boeruine.

Yes, Rhuobhe should be considered an opponent. BUT, this isn`t
necessarily a personal power level thingo. At a personal (`class`-like)
level it`s not easy to assess a warrior against a wizard. At the regent
level, there are similar difficulties in assessing a wizards domain
against that of a realm ruler. Even more difficult is to assess personal
power (of a non-regent) against that of a regent - generally no
individual will realistically have much of a chance against a regent
like Rhuobhe.

Any individual (whether regent or not) must traverse the Manslayers
domain to get to him. Getting past 200 fanatic elf guards is the least
of the difficulties. Even a powerful party of characters should find its
resources well and truly whittled away by the time they get near `the
elf` himself. (couldn`t resist the pun)

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[Birthright-L]

Using the conversion manual, he would indeed be a lvl 21 character. But this
should be a Wiz 15, F-6. That way, he gets a BAB of +13, which is siliar to
what he would have gotten as a F-16, and he keeps his spellcasting
abilities.

On the other hand, the conversion manual is fr from perfect. Levels in 3E
seem to be slightly higher across the board. It used to be that only
spellcasters really learned anything new after level 10; now every class
continues to progress. So any conversion that is internally consistent can
work - that is any conversion that maintains the relative power level of the
different NPCs.

/Carl

John Harbord <magius@PARADISE.NET.NZ> wrote at 02-07-11 05.57:

> I have to say that following the discussion on the conversion of Rhoubhe has
> undermined my confidence in the quality of the 3e conversion. I am sitting
> here asking if the converters know exactly what they are doing.
>
> Sure Rhoubhe is a 2e F16/W15, but the official stated rule for converting
> characters to 3e is that you divide their secondary class level by three.
> This would make Rhoubhe F16/W5. Now you might think he should be a more
> powerful wizard than this and I would agree. But the character level limit
> should stay to preserve a balanced approach. He shouldn`t have more than 21
> levels.
>
> To do otherwise seems to show a lack of understanding of the strengths and
> weaknesses of multiclassing between the two editions.
>
> Unless, of course, the converters are powering up everybody in a similar
> way. That would help preserve balance but destroy any interest I have in
> their work :)
>
> John
>
> ---
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[geeman]

At 09:28 AM 7/11/2002 +0200, Carl Cramer wrote:

>On the other hand, the conversion manual is fr from perfect. Levels in 3E
>seem to be slightly higher across the board. It used to be that only
>spellcasters really learned anything new after level 10; now every class
>continues to progress. So any conversion that is internally consistent can
>work - that is any conversion that maintains the relative power level of
>the different NPCs.

3e`s XP award system gives experience levels more quickly than previous
editions. It seems wrong that if one converted all the encounters a
character had completed and he`d wind up higher than a straight conversion
from 2e to 3e, but the "standard" conversion method is to reduce experience
level by a third. I suspect this is an inconsistency that was based on two
factors. First, the game designers probably weren`t all that sure what was
going to happen with level 21+ characters at that point. Second, they were
probably worried that 2e players converting their characters into 3e would
find the powering up process too much of a change and react badly.

In many cases "powering down" characters be translating them from 2e to 3e
is a bad idea. This is particularly the case when it comes to
awnsheghlien. The Manslayer or the Gorgon as a character with 21 total
levels? Too weak for my taste. If anything 3e versions of the major
awnshegh and characters in BR should be increased rather than lowered. I`d
suggest as high as 50% more character levels in certain cases, though 1/3
more is probably better average.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 12:41 AM 7/12/2002 +1200, John Harbord wrote:

>Personally I see no need to "power up" the awnshegh to preserve setting
>balance. If we stick with Rhoubhe for the moment, a straight conversion to
>3e would give him 21 levels. Aeric Boeruine would remain at 12 levels, yet
>Ruins of Empire clearly states that Boeruine has nearly defeated the
>Manslayer. Now a 3e 12th level fighter would get his butt handed to him by
>a 21st level character - and Aeric is the highest level fighter in Anuire.
>So saying Rhoubhe isn`t powerful enough anymore lacks a degree of
>persuasiveness IMO.

If you can make a 21st level Rhoubhe work IYC then I say go with it. I
think a 41st level Rhoubhe might be scarier. I haven`t had a party level
up to the point where they could take on a 21st level character in 3e yet,
but I have seen 3-5th level PCs deal with EL 12 encounters, so by
extrapolation a 10th level party might be able to deal with a version of
Rhoubhe "powered down" by the 2e to 3e conversion but YMMV.

>The same with the Gorgon. Leave him as a 25th level fighter. Together with
>his arsenal of magic items and blood abilities, no one in Cerilia could
>stand up to him in a fight.

There are several characters, particularly if combined together in a party,
who could actually stand up to him in a fight. Sic the faculty of the
College of Sorcery up against the Gorgon (particularly a version of him
without wizard levels) and he`d be toast pretty quick.

>I just don`t see a need to up the power levels of the setting in order to
>"preserve" the setting. After all, one of the supposed characteristics of
>the setting is that higher levels don`t matter so much - that it is a
>comparatively low power setting.

I`m not really concerned with any sort of higher purpose like "preserving
the setting" or whatever. I don`t really know what that kind of thing
means, to be honest, since it seems to be based on a highly subjective and
ever-changing personal standard. Why not just use any 3e versions
presented as examples and make whatever changes you want to them? I do
that with most anything anyway....

The goal of a 3e conversion should be that it`ll be useful to as many
people as possible, so there are going to have to be compromises made with
any individual`s personal preference. Personally, I don`t think the best
way to go about that is to make 3e versions of BR characters look as much
like 2e as possible, but I understand the effort to do so is in deference
to the desire of many people to "preserve the setting" in that abstract,
subjective way.

Anyway, I`ve argued in the past that BR isn`t _really_ a lower power
setting. It is low powered compared to (what I see as the rather juvenile)
Forgotten Realms setting, and there is a major difference in that
characters can become rulers before they reach their "name level" using the
BR domain rules. Because FR has become the standard D&D setting <shiver>
it seems like BR is low powered or that experience levels don`t make as
much of a difference. However, it isn`t really. Character levels are of
about the proper proportional significance in BR for my taste.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

Gary wrote:
> In many cases "powering down" characters be translating them from 2e to 3e
is a bad idea. This is particularly the case when it comes to awnsheghlien.
The Manslayer or the Gorgon as a character with 21 total levels? Too weak
for my taste.

Personally I see no need to "power up" the awnshegh to preserve setting
balance. If we stick with Rhoubhe for the moment, a straight conversion to
3e would give him 21 levels. Aeric Boeruine would remain at 12 levels, yet
Ruins of Empire clearly states that Boeruine has nearly defeated the
Manslayer. Now a 3e 12th level fighter would get his butt handed to him by
a 21st level character - and Aeric is the highest level fighter in Anuire.
So saying Rhoubhe isn`t powerful enough anymore lacks a degree of
persuasiveness IMO.

The same with the Gorgon. Leave him as a 25th level fighter. Together with
his arsenal of magic items and blood abilities, no one in Cerilia could
stand up to him in a fight.

I just don`t see a need to up the power levels of the setting in order to
"preserve" the setting. After all, one of the supposed characteristics of
the setting is that higher levels don`t matter so much - that it is a
comparatively low power setting.

John

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[Birthright-L]

Hello,

I don´t know if this has been said, but having Rhoubhe with 21 levels is
not entering the realms of "epic levels"? (I think you can´t have more than
20 normal class levels). But a long time since my last 3e game... Greetings,

Vicente



----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Cramér" <carl.cramer@HOME.SE>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Rhoubhe Manslayer writeup comments [12#781]


> Using the conversion manual, he would indeed be a lvl 21 character. But
this
> should be a Wiz 15, F-6. That way, he gets a BAB of +13, which is siliar
to
> what he would have gotten as a F-16, and he keeps his spellcasting
> abilities.

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[Mark_Aurel]

Ok, just to clarify: The stuff posted in the Writer's Guild has nothing to do with the official conversion. The Writer's Guild is purely for those that wish to post their own material (i.e. non-official).

Next, to the issue of converting monsters and awnsheghlien between editions. This is a more complex issue than has been addressed so far in this thread, I feel.

Let's take a look at some of the elements of converting a major player -

Classes: This would seem straightforward enough at first glance. However, classes are just a way of interpreting how a character relates game mechanically to the game world. In Rhuobhe's case, making him a ranger might be more appropriate than having him be a fighter - remember that rangers couldn't be evil in 2e - fallen rangers became fighters. Silly, yes. However, in 3e terms, it might be far more appropriate to make Rhuobhe a ranger than a fighter - it fits his character better, and has the added benefit of differentiating him a bit from the Gorgon (fighter/mage - almost all "power" characters in 2e became fighter/mages, for some reason - call it the Darth Vader/Doctor Doom School of Archvillainy). Staying true to the *character* of some awnsheghlien might actually thus require something beyond a simple 2e-to-3e revision of their statistics. This requires some interpretation, of course, but it should be blatantly obvious in many cases.

Next, the issue of levels. 2e and 3e both are basically capped at 20th level. In the case of many awnsheghlien, they were multi- or dual-classed in 2e. This follows a very different set of rules in 3e. The aforementioned fighter/mage power combo was definitely nerfed, unless you bring in some l33t prestige class. The level of any given character needs to be examined in a wider context than simply converting that character by using the conversion manual intended for PCs, however. Let's take the Big G to begin with. Big G (not Gary, the Gorgon) is supposed to be the most powerful individual in the world, or just about at that level. He's described as being close to the gods in terms of power level. Mmm-hmm. Deities and Demigods provide stats for gods, and from those, we can extrapolate roughly how powerful the Cerilian gods would be. Next, in order to make Big G's background story work - he's killed a dragon mano-a-mano. Dragons are pretty mean in 3e. (And, incidentally, yes, the dragons in the official conversion aren't blueprints of the 2e cerilian dragons - they're comparable to the dragons in the MM, which means they are far beefier than before). So, a dragon. A dragon of any size has 400-700 hit points or thereabout, incredible AC, attacks, damage, and is the equal of a high-level spellcaster in terms of spellcasting ability. The Gorgon was all that in 2e. He should clearly remain the same in 3e. The point is simply that, number for number, he should compare to, and compete with, the biggest people on the block otherwise - dragons and gods. That doesn't make him invincible (haven't seen anything that's invincible yet, except perhaps the unerrataed Tarrasque and Azathoth), just very, very powerful.

The implication I see here from some is that an NPC or character of extremely high level is somehow inherently "munchkin." That is overlooking some crucial elements of the game. The biggest level difference in the game is between 1st and 2nd level. Beyond that, level increases matter increasingly less for most characters (spellcasters could be considered an exception). The CR system breaks down on the upper levels - telling the difference between a CR of 20 and 22 or a 19th and a 20th-level fighter is actually much harder than telling the difference between a CR of 1 and 3 and a 3rd and 4th-level fighter. Why mention this? This is to bring the CRs of certain creatures in perspective - primarily dragons. The CR system is based upon character levels. However, past a certain point, it stops being equally relevant, when the levels are all tied to a single creature. A group of 16 20th-level fighters is probably a bigger threat to most than a single 30th-level fighter. A dragon of a certain age is easily the equivalent of a 20th-level fighter and a 20th-level wizard in one big package. However, the dragon's power, while versatile, is still limited by the possible number of actions per round. Thus, the dragon's effective power is less than what its variety of abilities might seem to suggest. The bottom line is - at extremely high levels, judging power relationships becomes increasingly hard. A monster that equals a 40th-level character or more can still have a CR in the 20s or 30s. ECL and CR are not the same here.

Ok, so that's a very long and boring tangent. The bottom line, though, is that converting awnsheghlien isn't simply a matter of adding skills and feats - the characters themselves need to be examined and then rewritten/converted according to the new rules. A character of 20th level or above in 3e would be a bit of a pushover if he had only 88 hit points. He could, in fact, be killed by a single lucky critical hit.

[geeman]

At 12:20 AM 7/12/2002 +0200, you wrote:

>Let`s take the Big G to begin with. Big G (not Gary, the Gorgon)

Clearly you have not yet felt the terrible weight of my deadly gaze....

>The bottom line, though, is that converting awnsheghlien isn`t simply a
>matter of adding skills and feats - the characters themselves need to be
>examined and then rewritten/converted according to the new rules. A
>character of 20th level or above in 3e would be a bit of a pushover if he
>had only 88 hit points. He could, in fact, be killed by a single lucky
>critical hit.

Exactly. When it comes to BR characters (particularly awnsheghlien) I
think the worst possible mistake to make would be to try to make 3e
versions of the 2e descriptions. Much better to look at what that
character is _supposed_ to be able to do and then work from that. In many
cases that really means the epic level, even for characters that in 2e have
not yet reached 20th level. The Spider in the original 2e materials is a
13HD creature with 88 hit points. Pathetic. He`s been around for 15 over
centuries! 3e characters can reach 13th level in under a year of game
time. I`ve had PCs go from 1st to 6th level in under a month of game time.

That`s not limited to the awnshegh. Should the High Mage get a
boost? What about some of the elves who`ve been around for a very long
time? The characters who have been around for a long time are the most
obvious, but one should also take into consideration some of the more
successful regents. Whether the Chamberlain has been around for a very
long time or no, he still needs to be examined carefully, as might other
characters. The Sword Mage should really just have some levels as a
fighter, for example.

Gary

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[blitzmacher]

I just want to know who the poor fool was who found out how powerful these beings really are.

[Birthright-L]

<< If you can make a 21st level Rhoubhe work IYC then I say go with it. I
think a 41st level Rhoubhe might be scarier. I haven`t had a party level
up to the point where they could take on a 21st level character in 3e yet,
but I have seen 3-5th level PCs deal with EL 12 encounters, so by
extrapolation a 10th level party might be able to deal with a version of
Rhoubhe "powered down" by the 2e to 3e conversion but YMMV.
>>

3rd- to 5th-level PCs beat an EL 12 encounter? How many PCs were in the
party? Not just the basic four, right? Normally, if a party of the standard
four PCs try to tackle an encounter with an EL more than four levels higher
than their average character level, they get slaughtered.


"Tooth for a tooth
Eye for an eye
There`s no more teeth
And this is why"
- Mudhoney, "Poisoned Water Poisons The Mind"

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[geeman]

At 10:32 AM 9/3/2002 +0200, Falcon wrote:

>3rd- to 5th-level PCs beat an EL 12 encounter? How many PCs were in the
>party? Not just the basic four, right? Normally, if a party of the
>standard four PCs try to tackle an encounter with an EL more than four
>levels higher than their average character level, they get slaughtered.

IIRC, in that particular example it was four 4th or 5th level PCs and a 4th
level NPC. The PCs had the tactical advantage, and the opponent had a few
factors that weakened it from "normal" so I guess a DM might want to knock
a level or two off its EL, but it was also the climactic battle of the
adventure so the PCs had expended some resources as well. Using the tables
straight out of the DMG it was an EL 12 encounter against about a level 5
party. Point being that circumstances can make the CR/EL system
inaccurate, and it`s possible for a party of 10th level (or so) PCs to take
on a powered down version of Rhoubhe if they manage to manipulate the
tactical situation properly.

Gary

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[Eosin the Red]

And this is a bad thing how?

If the PC are smart enough to outwit him (should be very hard) they deserve
a shot at killing him.

I think the calculations were off slightly, not all that unbelievable.

Surprise/advantage can knock as much as 4 off of an ECL. Added supplies and
equipment should add a +1 minimum. So an ECL 6 vs ECL 8 is not unbelievable.
ECL 5 vs ECL 12 = TPK unless the GM cheats.



Later,
Eosin the Red

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: Rhoubhe Manslayer writeup comments [12#781]


> At 10:32 AM 9/3/2002 +0200, Falcon wrote:
>
> >3rd- to 5th-level PCs beat an EL 12 encounter? How many PCs were in the
> >party? Not just the basic four, right? Normally, if a party of the
> >standard four PCs try to tackle an encounter with an EL more than four
> >levels higher than their average character level, they get slaughtered.
>
> IIRC, in that particular example it was four 4th or 5th level PCs and a
4th
> level NPC. The PCs had the tactical advantage, and the opponent had a few
> factors that weakened it from "normal" so I guess a DM might want to knock
> a level or two off its EL, but it was also the climactic battle of the
> adventure so the PCs had expended some resources as well. Using the
tables
> straight out of the DMG it was an EL 12 encounter against about a level 5
> party. Point being that circumstances can make the CR/EL system
> inaccurate, and it`s possible for a party of 10th level (or so) PCs to
take
> on a powered down version of Rhoubhe if they manage to manipulate the
> tactical situation properly.
>
> Gary
>
>
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[Onwen Agelmore]

This Rhoubhe can kill any dragon. Tarrasque isn´t a challenge for him...
IMHO doesn´t need more than 20 lvl´s...
A player that reach 20 lvl is a walking god. And a 20 lvl party can´t kill this Rhoubhe.
I think the BR players should forgot epic level, or go play forgooten realms.

[Onwen Agelmore]

Rhuobhe Manslayer lives on forgooten or cerilia?
Too many magical itens?

[Ellendael Nightstalker]

Seeing as how Roubhe's writeup can't cast Wish or Miracle, I think the Tarrasque would give him a bit of a challenge.

Admittedly, this writeup has an impressive list of magic items... although not egregious considering Roubhe's challenge rating. I believe that a better writeup of Roubhe would include his magic items from Blood Enemies with some 3e changes (such as Human Bane on his bow and/or sword), etc.

I strongly believe that a 20th level party would easily kill this writeup of Roubhe... mostly because they outnumber him!

I recently wrapped up playing in a campaign where my 4-person party reached 17th level. We wiped the floor with CR 20 creatures, mostly due to good tactics and teamwork. Still, my point is, Roubhe should be nasty, there's no doubt about it. This isn't the version of Roubhe I would make, but it's not a bad version all told.

[geeman]

At 03:07 PM 9/3/2002 -0500, Eosin the Red wrote:

>And this is a bad thing how?
>
>If the PC are smart enough to outwit him (should be very hard) they deserve
>a shot at killing him.

It`s not a bad thing, per se. The point was that a lower level (22nd)
version of Rhoubhe might get whacked by a relatively lower party of PCs, so
if one didn`t want that to happen then a higher level version of him might
be better. I personally prefer a higher level version not only to keep him
from getting killed by a relatively low level party (in comparison) but
also just because he`s been active for so long it`s hard to imagine him not
levelling up quite a bit. YMMV.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote at 02-09-03 15.24:

> IIRC, in that particular example it was four 4th or 5th level PCs and a 4th
> level NPC.

Four 5th level characters = EL 9, not 12. You get a +2 EL each time you
DOUBLE the number of critters in an encounter.

1 => EL = CL
2 => EL= CL +2
4 => EL = CL +4
8 => EL = CL +6

And so on

/Carl

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[Raesene Andu]

Personally, I would keep Rhuobhe as a level 16 fighter/15 wizard, no matter what the conversion manual says. 2000 years of fighting humans means he should be a bit more than a challenge. He is one of the major Awnsheghlien, and a few mere mortals (even 20th level mortals) shouldn't give him much of a challenge. Of course, if you intend on running a Birthright campaign through until your players reach 20th level, then they are going to need some powerful enemies. The more ancient awnshegh, the Gorgon, Rhuobhe, the Raven, etc provide a suitable challenge.

Also, one other thing to note. When everyone was doing their hp calculations, I think they all forgot one thing... Rhuobhe is a regent after all, so +10 hp for him. (pg. 32 of the Birthright rulebook).

[geeman]

At 03:55 PM 9/7/2002 +0200, Raesene Andu wrote:

>I think they all forgot one thing... Rhuobhe is a regent after all, so +10
>hp for him. (pg. 32 of the Birthright rulebook).

I`ve always ignored that rule, personally. I don`t know what would make a
regent harder to kill than another character, and the benefits of having a
domain are themselves probably more than enough to compensate.

Gary

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[Raesene Andu]

Orginally posted by geeman
I`ve always ignored that rule, personally. I don`t know what would make a
regent harder to kill than another character, and the benefits of having a
domain are themselves probably more than enough to compensate.


My players would be most upset if I tried to remove that rule. (Although they are all regents).

The land obviously looks after those that care about it., these bonus hp are a reflection of this (and when you get down to it, 10 extra hp don't make a lot of difference, except to lower level characters).

[Cobos]

Raesene Andu wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=781
>
> Raesene Andu wrote:
>
Orginally posted by geeman
> I`ve always ignored that rule, personally. I don`t know what would make a
> regent harder to kill than another character, and the benefits of having a
> domain are themselves probably more than enough to compensate.
>
>
> My players would be most upset if I tried to remove that rule. (Although they are all regents).
>
> The land obviously looks after those that care about it., these bonus hp are a reflection of this (and when you get down to it, 10 extra hp don`t make a lot of difference, except to lower level characters).
>
I agree in many ways this rule is a nice way of giving 1st lvl
characters a small buffer
against a very unfortunate and unheroic death...In many ways I think it
is good substite to
starting characters with a few levels. The party survives the encounter
with the lone
huge goblin :)

Cobos

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sun, 2002-09-08 at 11:00, Sindre Cools Berg wrote:

Raesene Andu wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=781
>
> Raesene Andu wrote:
>
Orginally posted by geeman
> I`ve always ignored that rule, personally. I don`t know what would make a
> regent harder to kill than another character, and the benefits of having a
> domain are themselves probably more than enough to compensate.
>
>
> My players would be most upset if I tried to remove that rule. (Although they are all regents).
>
> The land obviously looks after those that care about it., these bonus hp are a reflection of this (and when you get down to it, 10 extra hp don`t make a lot of difference, except to lower level characters).
>
I agree in many ways this rule is a nice way of giving 1st lvl
characters a small buffer
against a very unfortunate and unheroic death

unheroic -- of course they deserve an unheroic death, while most players
would like to think that every character deserves to make it to the next
level the reality is that they don`t. You have to be lucky as well as
smart. While many player characters die because their players were
less-than-brilliant-but-not-completely-stupid even almost perfect play
can fail. About one in ten 1st level characters should make it to fourth
level. Players whose characters make it through because the DM was kind,
(oh how politically correct and can I have a 2,000,000 level warrior
please?) or because they were "the right stuff" are putting the cart
before the horse - be heroic first then claim that was why you made it
through. ---- oh, I forgot this is 3e, we don`t role play anymore, we
just roll play and fudge the results, that`s how it`s done now. Heroes
are no longer a dying breed - they no longer exist (because all
characters are heroes now - right?).

...In many ways I think it
is good substite to
starting characters with a few levels. The party survives the encounter
with the lone
huge goblin :)

Cobos

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[geeman]

At 09:14 PM 9/8/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>>I agree in many ways this rule is a nice way of giving 1st lvl characters
>>a small buffer against a very unfortunate and unheroic death
>
>unheroic -- of course they deserve an unheroic death, while most players
>would like to think that every character deserves to make it to the next
>level the reality is that they don`t. You have to be lucky as well as
>smart. While many player characters die because their players were
>less-than-brilliant-but-not-completely-stupid even almost perfect play
>can fail. About one in ten 1st level characters should make it to fourth
>level. Players whose characters make it through because the DM was kind,
>(oh how politically correct and can I have a 2,000,000 level warrior
>please?) or because they were "the right stuff" are putting the cart
>before the horse - be heroic first then claim that was why you made it
>through. ---- oh, I forgot this is 3e, we don`t role play anymore, we
>just roll play and fudge the results, that`s how it`s done now. Heroes
>are no longer a dying breed - they no longer exist (because all
>characters are heroes now - right?).

Sorry, but I gotta ask... what are you babbling about? What`s this rather
scattered diatribe got to do with giving regents +10hp? That was part of
BR before 3e ever came out.

Gary

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[Trithemius]

Peter:
> unheroic -- of course they deserve an unheroic death, while
> most players would like to think that every character
> deserves to make it to the next level the reality is that
> they don`t. You have to be lucky as well as smart. While many
> player characters die because their players were
> less-than-brilliant-but-not-completely-stupid even almost
> perfect play can fail. About one in ten 1st level characters
> should make it to fourth level. Players whose characters make
> it through because the DM was kind, (oh how politically
> correct and can I have a 2,000,000 level warrior
> please?) or because they were "the right stuff" are putting
> the cart before the horse - be heroic first then claim that
> was why you made it
> through. ---- oh, I forgot this is 3e, we don`t role play
> anymore, we
> just roll play and fudge the results, that`s how it`s done
> now. Heroes are no longer a dying breed - they no longer
> exist (because all characters are heroes now - right?).

While I am not about to go easy on people who try and do stupid things,
I`m also not in a rush to kill off people`s characters. I encourage my
players to put a lot of creativity and effort into making interesting
PCs. I`d hate to have to make them do it all again on a regular basis.

I also don`t recall fudging being expressly forbidden in earlier
editions. Perhaps they were ommitted from my copies of the rules due to
a printer`s error.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Birthright-L]

<< IIRC, in that particular example it was four 4th or 5th level PCs and a
4th level NPC. The PCs had the tactical advantage, and the opponent had a
few factors that weakened it from "normal" so I guess a DM might want to
knock a level or two off its EL, but it was also the climactic battle of the
adventure so the PCs had expended some resources as well. Using the tables
straight out of the DMG it was an EL 12 encounter against about a level 5
party. Point being that circumstances can make the CR/EL system
inaccurate, and it`s possible for a party of 10th level (or so) PCs to take
on a powered down version of Rhoubhe if they manage to manipulate the
tactical situation properly.
>>

If you consult the DMG, you`ll see that circumstances actually can be taken
into account in the CR/EL system. Anyway, I think Rhuobhe has sufficient
Intelligence not to let himself be maneuvred into any tactical situation
that would give him a lethal disadvantage.

What were the exact details of the encounter in question, anyway? What kind
of foe are we talking about? What sort of circumstances?

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[Birthright-L]

<< It`s not a bad thing, per se. The point was that a lower level (22nd)
version of Rhoubhe might get whacked by a relatively lower party of PCs, so
if one didn`t want that to happen then a higher level version of him might
be better. I personally prefer a higher level version not only to keep him
from getting killed by a relatively low level party (in comparison) but
also just because he`s been active for so long it`s hard to imagine him not
levelling up quite a bit. YMMV.
>>

The CR/EL XP system assumes that any time a PC defeats a monster more than 8
CRs higher (or lower) than his character level, there`s something weird
going. In other words, PCs are not supposed to fight monster that are more
than 8 levels higher than themselves, no matter how many PCs there are in
the party.
Therefor, it would seem like a good choice to make Rhuobhe more than 8
levels higher than the highest non-epic level - in other words, it would
make sense to make him CR 29 or maybe a bit more.

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[geeman]

At 01:23 PM 9/10/2002 +0200, the Falcon wrote:

>If you consult the DMG, you`ll see that circumstances actually can be
>taken into account in the CR/EL system.

Rightio. That`s kind of my point. If you use a powered down version of
Rhoubhe (CR 22 or so) then circumstances can be manipulated so that he can
be taken on (and even taken out) but a relatively low level party of
characters.

>Anyway, I think Rhuobhe has sufficient Intelligence not to let himself be
>maneuvred into any tactical situation that would give him a lethal
>disadvantage.

I`d agree with that, but from the standpoint of the write up alone we can`t
control that sort of thing. Rhoubhe is one of the epic encounters of the
BR setting, so he should remain very high level. A write up for the
purpose of a 3e version of BR should take into consideration that
individual DMs might play him differently and try to cater to the "average"
situation. I think it would be a bad thing overall for a version of
Rhoubhe to be taken out by a party because the DM made a few bad
decisions. When, after all, hasn`t that happened to any of us who DM
often? Aside from more accurately (IMO) reflecting the power of the
character, a higher level version of him would help prevent that.

>What were the exact details of the encounter in question, anyway? What
>kind of foe are we talking about? What sort of circumstances?

Oh, man, it`s been a while and the campaign journal I (haphazardly) keep is
more anecdotal than material.... It just relates the story rather than
records levels and encounters, so I`m not going to be able to come up with
all the exact details. Let`s see what I can remember....

I don`t know the level of the opponents because I was playing not DMing
that particular evening. At some point after the adventure "EL 12" got
bandied about, but I believe that was based on the level of the arcane
spellcaster (I think a sorcerer but the term necromancer was mentioned, so
I`m not sure) who was the primary opponent, and by "EL 12" it was meant the
EL of the encounter without taking the tactical situation into
account. Anyway, I think the spellcaster was around 11th or 12th level
(for some reason I think 12th--I think one of the less scrupulous players
in my group peeked) and had four undead that were "unique" monsters
("unique" as in not out of the Monster Manual so I can`t give you the exact
CR) that had 4-6 HD each. I think they had 4 HD but were turned as if they
had 6 or 7. Something like that. I don`t know their exact powers or
abilities because, as I noted, they were unique monsters and I wasn`t the
DM, but I believe those four creatures themselves would have constituted an
EL 4 encounter.

I don`t remember the exact levels of the party members either, but most
were 4th level I believe. The setting itself was BR-like in that arcane
spellcasters were rare--all the good campaign settings make arcane
spellcasting a rare thing ;). So there was no arcane spellcaster on the PC
side. A 4th level paladin (which was my PC and I may have been 5th level
at the time since I was a bit ahead of the rest of the party) a 4th level
rogue, a 4th level cleric and a 2nd/1st barbarian/ranger.

The party members had to fight past the undead guards and cross a thin
bridge over a "bottomless pit" to get to the spellcaster who was performing
some sort of "end the world ritual" (don`t they all?) at the altar located
there. The spellcaster had expended a few spells/resources killing the
original guards at the site and getting to this, the climactic battle. I
don`t know how much exactly, but there were certainly a couple lightning
bolts left over for the party. The party had expended resources as well,
however, having taken a different route to arrive at the final location and
having had several encounters.

The tactical advantages for the party were that the spellcaster was
attempting to complete the ritual and conserve power for that ordeal and
would only attack the party if they managed to get past the undead. The
bottomless pit also became a tactical advantage in that it gave the PCs the
option of using bull rush attacks to push the spellcaster or the undead
over the side. That pit did, however, limit the approach of the party, so
it cut a bit both ways. I also used the altar as cover at one point. (A
paladin hiding behind an alter dedicated to evil struck me as ironic, but I
don`t think anyone else noticed.)

The value of the equipment for the party was appropriate for their level,
but the spellcaster`s equipment may not have been. At least one of the PCs
had high ability scores that I would now assign a +1 ECL to using some
tables for determining the ECL of high ability scores that I came up with a
month or two ago. Another one of the PCs, however, had some low stats that
might offset that. I don`t know the ability scores of the spellcaster or
the undead.

One of the party members was killed in the encounter, and most everyone
took serious damage (except my PC who freakishly came out of the whole
adventure smelling like a rose. Just lucky, I guess.)

At 01:36 PM 9/10/2002 +0200, the Falcon also wrote:

>The CR/EL XP system assumes that any time a PC defeats a monster more than
>8 CRs higher (or lower) than his character level, there`s something weird
>going. In other words, PCs are not supposed to fight monster that are more
>than 8 levels higher than themselves, no matter how many PCs there are in
>the party.
>
>Therefor, it would seem like a good choice to make Rhuobhe more than 8
>levels higher than the highest non-epic level - in other words, it would
>make sense to make him CR 29 or maybe a bit more.

Exactly. That would make his character levels much more in line with his
2e levels. The question here (IIRC) was whether or not one should apply
the conversion table to a 3e version of Rhoubhe or preserve his levels. I
think they should be conserved for reasons involving the EL system and just
because of the nature of the character. In order to properly reflect how
scary he is he needs to be better than CR 22.

Personally, I prefer not to design the major awnsheghlien in BR using EL as
much of a consideration. It`s fine to figure out the EL, of course, but EL
shouldn`t be a concern when creating such characters. In the terms the DMG
uses, I mean they should be designed using "status quo" over "tailored"
methods. Rhoubhe should be designed with his background, motives and
activities in mind rather than as a potential encounter for a band of PCs.

I`m starting to adopt this philosophy more and more in my campaigns,
whether they are BR or not. Tailored encounters, in my experience, tend to
favor hack `n slash over parley and negotiation, especially if players
realize that the DM is designing them using that method. Players, of
course, don`t have to fight through such encounters, but tailored
encounters are designed for that purpose, so at the very least I think they
make combat an option. Recent adventures I`ve played that I`ve developed
using "status quo" methods encourage the opposite. Players talk things out
more because fighting isn`t always an option. This is particularly true if
you tell the players that you`re not going to be tailoring
encounters. They are much more hesitant to dive into encounters
willy-nilly in a way that isn`t really a problem using tailored
events. Right now I`m still going through an adjustment period, but early
experiments have been promising.

Using the same status quo methods, players don`t know the power of an
encounter. A satyr might just be a satyr, but he also might have twelve
druid levels. Not knowing which is the case, players are less likely to
push around such an NPC. In that and several other ways it fosters
role-playing in a way that tailoring encounters seems not to. Of course,
tailored encounters are still useful when actually designing specific
combat situations for an adventure--though some of the specifics of the
system make its conclusions a bit dicey sometimes. As a method of
designing the whole adventure I`m using it less and less.

Of course, these are generalities and as always YMMV, but when it comes to
creating the major NPCs of a campaign setting, I definitely think a status
quo method is preferable to tailoring.

Gary

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:17 PM


> Personally, I prefer not to design the major awnsheghlien in BR
> using EL as much of a consideration.

I`m glad you mentioned "major" awnsheghlien, because I think its a good idea
to fill out the setting by creating one or two minor abominations for the
party to defeat before they every really encounter one of the big names.
I`ve already been dropping hints about the Crow. The Crow`s story purpose
is to alert the players, who have little BR experience about these special
monsters, tell this guy`s particular story, and so set up a later encounter
with the Worm. The Worm bores through the hulls of Rjurik longships to eat
the crew, and hopefully swollow a scion. After they`ve encountered, and
possibly destroyed, the Crow and the Worm, they should have the
understanding of awnsheghlien to begin to understand the foul role of the
Siren, the White Witch, the Gorgon, and even Rhoubhe, who`s just a quick
longship south of the Taelshore.

As far as those later names, they need to be "staus quo". Also, as you
point out, its best for players to encounter them before they would qualify
as potential "tailored" encounters. The Siren is the being set up as an
awnshegh realm the players could concievably conquer. The others,
especially the White Witch, whom I hope will emerge as one of the great
villains of the campaign, are too powerful to be defeated in the foreseeable
future.

To fall into a much more common type of encounter, I have populated the
Taelshore with "status quo" characters. These are all detailed on my web
site, and their purpose is to create a believable population of nobles,
priests, and guilders.
http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/
Olfjor Ylvarrik is a 9th level character. Early on, the PC`s ought not pick
a fight with him. His sons, however, are "tailored". They will start off
as begining adventurers just as the PC`s do. By the time the PC`s are
leading figures in Stjordvik (assuming they don`t wander off), one of the
sons will be Eorl of Arvaald, instead of old Olfjor. Of course, killing of
Olfjor`s sons the first time they see them, will make a very powerful enemy
out of Olfjor. Did someone say feud?

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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