priests and their dieties

[Caesthen]

I have been going over some of the domain books I was able to find after birthright was dropped, and have found a couple of examples where a priest is a follower of a certain diety, but gains his/her powers from a different diety. It seems to me that the "offended" diety might have a problem with this. If the diety's mortal follower is claiming to be furthering his god's goals, but is actually working against them, shouldn't he/she/it be pissed? Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. Respectfully, Caesthen of Nolien, priest of Haelyn.

[kgauck]

Most certainly the diety being used is ticked. The thing is, the character
doing it has the protection of his own god. As long the as the fraud-priest
is advancing his god`s interests in a manner acceptable to the god, the
agrieved diety really has to take it up with the first diety.

You`ll notice that the dieties who do this are going to be tricky or sneaky
dieties. Some gods won`t want their priests going around lying or
perpetrating frauds no matter what the reward. If a priest retains his
god`s support during such a fraud, the grievance is taking place on another
plane of existence.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

Can you give an example?

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-07-03
03.44:

> Caesthen wrote:
> I have been going over some of the domain books I was able to find after
> birthright was dropped, and have found a couple of examples where a priest is
> a follower of a certain diety, but gains his/her powers from a different
> diety. It seems to me that the "offended" diety might have a problem with
> this. If the diety`s mortal follower is claiming to be furthering his god`s
> goals, but is actually working against them, shouldn`t he/she/it be pissed?
> Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated. Respectfully, Caesthen of
> Nolien, priest of Haelyn.
>
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[geeman]

At 03:44 AM 7/3/2002 +0200, Caesthen wrote:

>I have been going over some of the domain books I was able to find after
>birthright was dropped, and have found a couple of examples where a priest
>is a follower of a certain diety, but gains his/her powers from a
>different diety. It seems to me that the "offended" diety might have a
>problem with this. If the diety`s mortal follower is claiming to be
>furthering his god`s goals, but is actually working against them,
>shouldn`t he/she/it be pissed? Any thoughts or comments would be
>appreciated. Respectfully, Caesthen of Nolien, priest of Haelyn.

It`s debatable how directly the gods can get involved in such
situations. The standard in D&D has been that the gods often take a very
active role in adventures. Some of the 1e materials would even indicate
that they are hovering about adventuring parties, manipulating their events
in a way that smacks more of DM manipulation more of divine participation,
but in BR the gods have an explicit "hands-off" agreement so they become
less directly involved in the activities of humanity. Personally, I think
this is the way most gods in most campaign settings should be
handled. Gods operate at a much higher level and shouldn`t get involved
very often or very much in mortal affairs.

Gary

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[Trithemius]

Gary says:

> It`s debatable how directly the gods can get involved in such
> situations. The standard in D&D has been that the gods often
> take a very active role in adventures. Some of the 1e
> materials would even indicate that they are hovering about
> adventuring parties, manipulating their events in a way that
> smacks more of DM manipulation more of divine participation,
> but in BR the gods have an explicit "hands-off" agreement so
> they become less directly involved in the activities of
> humanity. Personally, I think this is the way most gods in
> most campaign settings should be handled. Gods operate at a
> much higher level and shouldn`t get involved very often or
> very much in mortal affairs.

With the possible exception of Eloele, who likes to mess around in clear
violation of the agreement between the other deities. I think that she
is more likely to screw with her worshippers plans than aid them though,
being the bitch she is :)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Cramér" <carl.cramer@HOME.SE>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:59 AM

> Can you give an example?

According to Ruins of Empire, Torias Griene, the Hierarch and unblooded
number two man in the Northern Imperial Temple, is really a priest of
Eloéle.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

I say the gods are not fooled in this case - but since deception is
Eloéle`s portfolio, Haelyn can`t alert his priests. I guess he could answer
them if they used Commune to ask, but as long as they dont, he has to stay
mum about it.

Anyway, this is sort of a test for Haylyn`s other clerics. If they are so
tolerant of each other that an imposter from a chaotic church could nest in
their church, then they are not really as Lawful as Haelyenite priests are
supposed to be.

But this is just my take, without consulting any of the books.

/Carl

Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM> wrote at 02-07-03 20.22:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Cramér" <carl.cramer@HOME.SE>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:59 AM
>
>> Can you give an example?
>
> According to Ruins of Empire, Torias Griene, the Hierarch and unblooded
> number two man in the Northern Imperial Temple, is really a priest of
> Eloéle.
>
> Kenneth Gauck
> kgauck@mchsi.com
>
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>

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:02 AM


> Some of the 1e materials would even indicate that they are hovering
> about adventuring parties, manipulating their events in a way that
> smacks more of DM manipulation more of divine participation,

This kind of stuff sounds like the Illiad, where Ares and Aphrodite are
obviously on the side of the Trojans, and Athene and Hera obviously on the
side of the Achaeans. Posidon and Zeus are partial to heros on both sides
so while they intervene, they do so on both sides of the war. Athene and
Ares actually take the field and fight along side the heros. Of course the
gods are invulnerable and immortal, so its a tremendous effect. Its only
due to the fact that there is a god on either side that prevents a total
rout. Eventually Zeus demands that all the gods stop intervening in the
affairs of the war.

> but in BR the gods have an explicit "hands-off" agreement so they become
> less directly involved in the activities of humanity. Personally, I think
> this is the way most gods in most campaign settings should be
> handled. Gods operate at a much higher level and shouldn`t get involved
> very often or very much in mortal affairs.

While this is only a style of play, and one not well suited for Heroic Greek
play, it is a style that suits me as well. I prefer gods to be remote.
Consider these two scenarios of divine intervention:
1) Haelyn`s avatar appears to Liliene Swordwraith and declares that he is
offended by the True Church of Vosgaard. He urgesd her to rally her forces
and remove the stain upon Anuire. Suddenly the image of Nesirie appears
beside her husband and praises his wisdom. She blesses the land (as the
realm spell) and promised to advise the queen in order to avoid some of the
excesses of war`s brutality. The Queen of Aerenwe assigns the PC`s some key
task in the upcomming war.

2) Haelyn is concerned about the True Church of Vosgaard, but does not tell
any mortals of this. Instead the concern of the Giver of Justice manifest
themselves in subtle ways. A few exceptionally astute observers notice
certain things. A well regarded priest of Haelyn in Algael tells a high
placed friend in the Eastern Temple of Neserie about his personal concerns
about some of the priests Jaison Raenech has established in Castel Morhaas
in the city of Moriel. The priest of Haelyn is unaware how his deep
insights into Haelyn`s wisdom literature put him at one with his diety on
this matter. Meanwhile a virtuous farmer in Halried has visions of a great
combat between Belinik and Cuiraécen. Most people think he`s just dreaming
about the famous literary telling of the famous battle between the two gods
(in which Belinik gets his scar). Finally, a series of storms and rough
weather at sea convinces a key priestess of Neserie that the godess is
concerned about grave matters involving the Lord of Noble War and the
Stormlord. Something is happening in the celestial sphere. The PC`s put
together the Algaelian law priests concerns, the visison of the yeoman, and
the odd weather at sea and conclude that the priests of Belinik in Moriel
are up to something no good and need to be stopped. Liliene Swordwraith,
having heard the whole story tells the PC`s that their actions may lead to
war with Osoerde, but Aerenwe is ready if it comes to that.

My preference is very much for scenario #2. While both scenarios satisfy
the story elements. The latter allows the players to draw their own
conclusions and make their own plans. The DM`s hook for adventures against
the TCV and a war between Aerenwe and Osoerde come to pass, but in the
second case, the characters own these events in ways they did not in the
former case. The gods appear interested, but not controlling. It is their
agents, the PC`s who decide what to do and then do it.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Lord Eldred]

Given the examples of where there was a priest of a church that actually followed a different god...I would have to say it was a mistake in the printing. Unless for some reason he is posing as a priest of one god while he truly worshipped another.

For example "According to Ruins of Empire, Torias Griene, the Hierarch and unblooded number two man in the Northern Imperial Temple, is really a priest of Eloéle." This has to be a mistake. How would the second in command of the NIT actually worship Eloele?

[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

>Lord Eldred wrote:
> Given the examples of where there was a priest of a church that actually followed a different god...I would have to say it was a mistake in the printing. Unless for some reason he is posing as a priest of one god while he truly worshipped another.
>
>For example "According to Ruins of Empire, Torias Griene, the Hierarch and unblooded number two man in the Northern Imperial Temple, is really a priest of Eloéle." This has to be a mistake. How would the second in command of the NIT actually worship Eloele?
>
It does not say that he is a priest of Eloele or worships her - he is a
priest of Haelyn.
But due to his actions he receives nothing from Haelyn, his spells come
from Eloele who seem to be please by his
stealthy plans and such.
bye
Michael

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[A_dark]

he is a heretic :)

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by ConjurerDragon

Hello!

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

>Lord Eldred wrote:
> Given the examples of where there was a priest of a church that actually followed a different god...I would have to say it was a mistake in the printing. Unless for some reason he is posing as a priest of one god while he truly worshipped another.
>
>For example "According to Ruins of Empire, Torias Griene, the Hierarch and unblooded number two man in the Northern Imperial Temple, is really a priest of Eloéle." This has to be a mistake. How would the second in command of the NIT actually worship Eloele?
>
It does not say that he is a priest of Eloele or worships her - he is a
priest of Haelyn.
But due to his actions he receives nothing from Haelyn, his spells come
from Eloele who seem to be please by his
stealthy plans and such.
bye
Michael

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WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR STATEMENTS ON? What page of Ruins of Empire indicates these facts?

[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!
Ruins of Empire, p. 24/25 "Though a priest of Haelyn, he draws no power
from that god - it comes instead from Eloele, the goddess of stealth"
bye
Michael
***********
...

>It does not say that he is a priest of Eloele or worships her - he is a
>priest of Haelyn.
>But due to his actions he receives nothing from Haelyn, his spells come
>from Eloele who seem to be please by his
>stealthy plans and such.
>bye
>Michael
>
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>[/quote]
>
>
>WHAT DO YOU BASE YOUR STATEMENTS ON? What page of Ruins of Empire indicates these facts?
>
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[Lord Eldred]

Thanks. It must be something with the way the Gods look at each other. Perhaps Eloele does it to show support for Haeyln.

[kgauck]

Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 11:25 AM
Lord Eldred wrote:
> Thanks. It must be something with the way the Gods look at each
> other. Perhaps Eloele does it to show support for Haeyln.

These gods regard each other as foes. I think its meant to be a set up for
intrigue for players in Talanie.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Lord Eldred]

I had rediscovered the fact that they were foes as I flipped through the conversion manual. I would have to agree it is probably meant for intrigue. My suggestion would be that Haelyn would not like this and would take care of it by letting others in the church know the truth and have this enemy eliminated! This could be a great adventure for your campaign!

[Caesthen]

Torias Griene is one of the examples I was referring to. Rhober Nichalier is another. If he is the head of the largest and most powerful church in all of Anuire, and is the Lawful Good Priest of Haelyn to boot, then shouldn't he be putting more effort into spreading the faith, than acquiring wealth? It says that he spends gold liberally in expansion of the faith, but at what cost? And as for good old Torias, in the BR comp game he is listed as LG. And yet in the Talinie sourcebook, it sure looks like he offed his boss. A little confusing isn't it.

[Lord Eldred]

All left there as possible items to investigate and set adventures around!